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What exaclty is your IDEA of a Rebuild
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EnySpree
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4/19/2017  4:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/19/2017  10:45 PM
I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at first it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

You know why I'm here....
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Bonn1997
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4/19/2017  5:13 PM
martin wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:There's no such thing as losing Melo for nothing. You're losing him for $124 mil in cap space that can be spent better.

I'm sure OKC is super happy they got all that capspace in lieu of losing Durant. Yay

That's a response looking for a problem.


If you want to discuss what Durant is worth and how harmful losing hum is, that's a separate topic.
nixluva
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4/19/2017  5:37 PM
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

I agree and to add to this Puzzle metaphor, we have a nice start with KP and Willy and if we can add a legit STUD with our 1st rd Pick then you have 3 really promising young studs. There will also be a chance to add some more prospects with our 2nd rd picks. There are no guarantees but it's possible to get lucky and have a better than expected 2nd rd pick like Willy is.

Then you continue to develop the young players already on the roster and it starts to form a much clearer picture. We haven't even talked about Free Agency or any Trades. Every move doesn't have to be a blockbuster big name trade. This team just needs to keep making progress with each addition.

Another thing is that MANY of the players from this season are returning and that group will already be familiar and in the swing of things. There should be better chemistry to start the year next season due to more continuity. This is a process and not about instant or quick fixes.

fwk00
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4/19/2017  6:29 PM
wargames wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
wargames wrote:Rebuild is when a team gets rid of vet players and goes young in hopes of building a new, better team 3-5 seasons in the future

Actually, its an interesting question mostly because of the degree of ignorance so many Knicks fans are subjected to. The answer wargames gives is kind of a generic meme about what it is.

First, rebuild is one word used for the process of transformation of the team from one thing to another. The key here is that the process only co-incidentally means that more wins and fewer losses is the result. Other processes are reload, competitive (fiscally responsible), entertaining (perpetual transformation and very profitable, see: Sterling's Clippers), and so on.

The first thing that is important is to have a postmortem of what the last process or two did right and did wrong.
A close second is an honest inventory of assets and what those assets have the potential of accomplishing.

To put this into the context of the Knicks, the Layden years dug a fiscal hole AND constrained the options for getting out of that hole. The process which didn't differ from Layden through Walsh, was to attempt to reload by mortgaging the future and taking high risk solutions.

The team Phil inherited was built almost exclusively around Anthony. The postmortem of the Walsh years had to look that way to Dolan, Phil, and the rest of the organization. So when it came time to decide on resigning Melo or be left with no Melo AND a team customized *to* Melo, Phil chose a hybrid approach that leaned toward another [Melo] reload but moved toward a high profile system of playing the game.

The last postmortem looked back at the Melo years and observed that reloading yet again to Melo was a fool's errand. Even eliminating the system wasn't going to result in a sustainable, reproducible model Knicks team (say like the Spurs, GSW, et al). You would basically create a Melo-playoff-cameo, one-and-done roster assuming even that team got that far.

So let's do a postmortem inventory of assets.

Instead of looking at Melo like a future consideration - he becomes either a tradable asset or a complementary and disposable player going forward.

The rest of the team? Similar calibration - all have some value and whoever is not cashed in remains a reasonable fit in a rebuild.

Why rebuild instead of reload [again]? First because its now clear that there's nothing to reload around. Melo is not the answer. Two, there's a young core of talent AND FINALLY an opportunity to richly mine the draft with multiple picks over time.

But Phil has qualified the idea of a rebuild. What is sounds more like in a competitive rebuild. In other words, expect young but mature talent coming in to reduce that 3-5 year NBA break-in period.

I feel you can make an argument that having a player like KP coming in next season as a 3rd Year player should shorten then rebuild timeline by default. The reason why rebuilds tend to take longer is teams spend time looking for that key piece to build around. The Knicks have that in KP.

However, I also didn't get that vibe that Phil expected a quick "competitive rebuild". To me it sounded like the plan was to bottom out (lose games) at least one more year and focus on getting the youth on the team more minutes.

In fact his entire reasoning for Melo to leave was 1) we will be losing next year so it's a waste of time for him to be here and 2) they haven't won with him in NY so it's no real loss

I disagree. I'm not sure Porzingis is going to be anything special and I'm not sure Phil is putting all his eggs in that basket. Hernangomez might have a clearer path to being a rotation regular. But I agree that Porzingis is a fan favorite and expected to be special.

Its very possible that this year's draft pick becomes the Knicks centerpiece - whoever that may be.

If you review Phil's comments he emphasized how long it took for draft picks to become regulars (couldn't help but take this as a hint). If you analyze his pattern of player acquisition I think, more often than not, he'll grab a three or four-year college player over a freshman whose potential is less well known. And Phil has a nose for improbable talent (Baker, Holiday, Plumlee, Thomas, and so on).

Phil specifically said [in the context of tanking (nonetheless)], 'that's not how we roll'. Any Phil rebuild will not intentionally encourage losing. I think the anti-Phil tsunami manufactured the idea that the Knicks won't be winning.

I think you misread why Phil recomended to Melo that he should leave. Its not what you say.
Phil was basically saying, the window of opportunity for a ring isn't there with you [Melo] as a centerpiece here. You're better off elsewhere and so are we (more or less what you say in point 2).

PhilinLA
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4/19/2017  6:30 PM
I think the rebuild started the night we picked KP and Willy. I think it was sort of put on hold last summer with the Chicago trade (though picking up Kuz sort of fit the KP agenda, rather than the Melo one. I think this year, with cash and perhaps some extra picks from trades,I think the rebuild will take the next big step.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
fwk00
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4/19/2017  6:33 PM
martin wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?


Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

Jesus Bonn. Statements like this are so TMZ inflammatory and out of context that they just suck.

Let's just take Melo.

In 2012-13 the Knicks had a 54 win team with Melo averaging almost 29PPG, highest in the league, and 37 MPG. Legit MVP candidate. He was 28.

2013-14 Knicks didn't do as well but Melo still brought it. Played nearly 39 minutes per game. Scored 27.4 per game, shot 40% from 3pt land. 8 RPG. Played 77 games. Only 29.

Are you telling me as a GM you would NOT bring this type of guy back even if you knew you were gonna go through some sort of rebuild? He was an UFA.

I hate the NTC but Phil is in a pickle here and has zero leverage with Melo realistically. The owner wants him to have a marque guy and is in the hunt for all star game (or was that already decided). Dude just came off of an MPV quality season - and maybe another if the record is better?

Melo comes to him and says I really really really want to stay in NY and I just proved to the organization with 2 years of buff play. I am ready for 3-4 more years at this level. If I don't get NTC I walk.

What can Phil say to this? And as GM, would you be AOK with Melo walking for nothing as your first months on job?

Frankly, I didn't think Melo would break down this fast, he is a shell of himself. Sucks.

A very fair and accurate account of the historical record. Phil did not "gift" a NTC to Melo. Melo took a fiscal haircut and demanded the NTC in return.

wargames
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4/19/2017  6:52 PM
fwk00 wrote:
wargames wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
wargames wrote:Rebuild is when a team gets rid of vet players and goes young in hopes of building a new, better team 3-5 seasons in the future

Actually, its an interesting question mostly because of the degree of ignorance so many Knicks fans are subjected to. The answer wargames gives is kind of a generic meme about what it is.

First, rebuild is one word used for the process of transformation of the team from one thing to another. The key here is that the process only co-incidentally means that more wins and fewer losses is the result. Other processes are reload, competitive (fiscally responsible), entertaining (perpetual transformation and very profitable, see: Sterling's Clippers), and so on.

The first thing that is important is to have a postmortem of what the last process or two did right and did wrong.
A close second is an honest inventory of assets and what those assets have the potential of accomplishing.

To put this into the context of the Knicks, the Layden years dug a fiscal hole AND constrained the options for getting out of that hole. The process which didn't differ from Layden through Walsh, was to attempt to reload by mortgaging the future and taking high risk solutions.

The team Phil inherited was built almost exclusively around Anthony. The postmortem of the Walsh years had to look that way to Dolan, Phil, and the rest of the organization. So when it came time to decide on resigning Melo or be left with no Melo AND a team customized *to* Melo, Phil chose a hybrid approach that leaned toward another [Melo] reload but moved toward a high profile system of playing the game.

The last postmortem looked back at the Melo years and observed that reloading yet again to Melo was a fool's errand. Even eliminating the system wasn't going to result in a sustainable, reproducible model Knicks team (say like the Spurs, GSW, et al). You would basically create a Melo-playoff-cameo, one-and-done roster assuming even that team got that far.

So let's do a postmortem inventory of assets.

Instead of looking at Melo like a future consideration - he becomes either a tradable asset or a complementary and disposable player going forward.

The rest of the team? Similar calibration - all have some value and whoever is not cashed in remains a reasonable fit in a rebuild.

Why rebuild instead of reload [again]? First because its now clear that there's nothing to reload around. Melo is not the answer. Two, there's a young core of talent AND FINALLY an opportunity to richly mine the draft with multiple picks over time.

But Phil has qualified the idea of a rebuild. What is sounds more like in a competitive rebuild. In other words, expect young but mature talent coming in to reduce that 3-5 year NBA break-in period.

I feel you can make an argument that having a player like KP coming in next season as a 3rd Year player should shorten then rebuild timeline by default. The reason why rebuilds tend to take longer is teams spend time looking for that key piece to build around. The Knicks have that in KP.

However, I also didn't get that vibe that Phil expected a quick "competitive rebuild". To me it sounded like the plan was to bottom out (lose games) at least one more year and focus on getting the youth on the team more minutes.

In fact his entire reasoning for Melo to leave was 1) we will be losing next year so it's a waste of time for him to be here and 2) they haven't won with him in NY so it's no real loss

I disagree. I'm not sure Porzingis is going to be anything special and I'm not sure Phil is putting all his eggs in that basket. Hernangomez might have a clearer path to being a rotation regular. But I agree that Porzingis is a fan favorite and expected to be special.

Its very possible that this year's draft pick becomes the Knicks centerpiece - whoever that may be.

If you review Phil's comments he emphasized how long it took for draft picks to become regulars (couldn't help but take this as a hint). If you analyze his pattern of player acquisition I think, more often than not, he'll grab a three or four-year college player over a freshman whose potential is less well known. And Phil has a nose for improbable talent (Baker, Holiday, Plumlee, Thomas, and so on).

Phil specifically said [in the context of tanking (nonetheless)], 'that's not how we roll'. Any Phil rebuild will not intentionally encourage losing. I think the anti-Phil tsunami manufactured the idea that the Knicks won't be winning.

I think you misread why Phil recomended to Melo that he should leave. Its not what you say.
Phil was basically saying, the window of opportunity for a ring isn't there with you [Melo] as a centerpiece here. You're better off elsewhere and so are we (more or less what you say in point 2).

I have disagree with many of your points.

KP is the future, and if he makes a leap in year 4-5 like most players do, he could very well be a superstar.

I agree on your point about him seeking unheralded talent (and expect our 2nd round picks to fit that mold), but the Triangle actually helps roleplayers contribute more to the whole of the team. When it comes to the first I expect it to be a Ntilikina or Fox.... possibly Isaac.

As for the we don't tank, we ended that Philly game with a almost complete secondary player lineup and won because N'dour (one of our worst players) made a shot. Tanking is done in the FO, I expect Phil to not chase any big names and instead see if they can find roleplayers for the system in an attempt to get at least 1 more high pick during his term.

As for Melo I agree with what you said but the idea was we're going to bottom out anyhow and you being here is going to make that process harder so he might as well leave.

StarksEwing1
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4/19/2017  7:00 PM
knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

With all due respect why do you HATE rebuilding or building through the draft. I mean have you seen the past 17 years? We traded numerous first rounds picks and went "all in" every season and we became worse. I mean why not try an actual rebuild this time.
fwk00
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4/19/2017  7:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/19/2017  7:56 PM
wargames wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
wargames wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
wargames wrote:Rebuild is when a team gets rid of vet players and goes young in hopes of building a new, better team 3-5 seasons in the future

Actually, its an interesting question mostly because of the degree of ignorance so many Knicks fans are subjected to. The answer wargames gives is kind of a generic meme about what it is.

First, rebuild is one word used for the process of transformation of the team from one thing to another. The key here is that the process only co-incidentally means that more wins and fewer losses is the result. Other processes are reload, competitive (fiscally responsible), entertaining (perpetual transformation and very profitable, see: Sterling's Clippers), and so on.

The first thing that is important is to have a postmortem of what the last process or two did right and did wrong.
A close second is an honest inventory of assets and what those assets have the potential of accomplishing.

To put this into the context of the Knicks, the Layden years dug a fiscal hole AND constrained the options for getting out of that hole. The process which didn't differ from Layden through Walsh, was to attempt to reload by mortgaging the future and taking high risk solutions.

The team Phil inherited was built almost exclusively around Anthony. The postmortem of the Walsh years had to look that way to Dolan, Phil, and the rest of the organization. So when it came time to decide on resigning Melo or be left with no Melo AND a team customized *to* Melo, Phil chose a hybrid approach that leaned toward another [Melo] reload but moved toward a high profile system of playing the game.

The last postmortem looked back at the Melo years and observed that reloading yet again to Melo was a fool's errand. Even eliminating the system wasn't going to result in a sustainable, reproducible model Knicks team (say like the Spurs, GSW, et al). You would basically create a Melo-playoff-cameo, one-and-done roster assuming even that team got that far.

So let's do a postmortem inventory of assets.

Instead of looking at Melo like a future consideration - he becomes either a tradable asset or a complementary and disposable player going forward.

The rest of the team? Similar calibration - all have some value and whoever is not cashed in remains a reasonable fit in a rebuild.

Why rebuild instead of reload [again]? First because its now clear that there's nothing to reload around. Melo is not the answer. Two, there's a young core of talent AND FINALLY an opportunity to richly mine the draft with multiple picks over time.

But Phil has qualified the idea of a rebuild. What is sounds more like in a competitive rebuild. In other words, expect young but mature talent coming in to reduce that 3-5 year NBA break-in period.

I feel you can make an argument that having a player like KP coming in next season as a 3rd Year player should shorten then rebuild timeline by default. The reason why rebuilds tend to take longer is teams spend time looking for that key piece to build around. The Knicks have that in KP.

However, I also didn't get that vibe that Phil expected a quick "competitive rebuild". To me it sounded like the plan was to bottom out (lose games) at least one more year and focus on getting the youth on the team more minutes.

In fact his entire reasoning for Melo to leave was 1) we will be losing next year so it's a waste of time for him to be here and 2) they haven't won with him in NY so it's no real loss

I disagree. I'm not sure Porzingis is going to be anything special and I'm not sure Phil is putting all his eggs in that basket. Hernangomez might have a clearer path to being a rotation regular. But I agree that Porzingis is a fan favorite and expected to be special.

Its very possible that this year's draft pick becomes the Knicks centerpiece - whoever that may be.

If you review Phil's comments he emphasized how long it took for draft picks to become regulars (couldn't help but take this as a hint). If you analyze his pattern of player acquisition I think, more often than not, he'll grab a three or four-year college player over a freshman whose potential is less well known. And Phil has a nose for improbable talent (Baker, Holiday, Plumlee, Thomas, and so on).

Phil specifically said [in the context of tanking (nonetheless)], 'that's not how we roll'. Any Phil rebuild will not intentionally encourage losing. I think the anti-Phil tsunami manufactured the idea that the Knicks won't be winning.

I think you misread why Phil recomended to Melo that he should leave. Its not what you say.
Phil was basically saying, the window of opportunity for a ring isn't there with you [Melo] as a centerpiece here. You're better off elsewhere and so are we (more or less what you say in point 2).

I have disagree with many of your points.

KP is the future, and if he makes a leap in year 4-5 like most players do, he could very well be a superstar.

I agree on your point about him seeking unheralded talent (and expect our 2nd round picks to fit that mold), but the Triangle actually helps roleplayers contribute more to the whole of the team. When it comes to the first I expect it to be a Ntilikina or Fox.... possibly Isaac.

As for the we don't tank, we ended that Philly game with a almost complete secondary player lineup and won because N'dour (one of our worst players) made a shot. Tanking is done in the FO, I expect Phil to not chase any big names and instead see if they can find roleplayers for the system in an attempt to get at least 1 more high pick during his term.

As for Melo I agree with what you said but the idea was we're going to bottom out anyhow and you being here is going to make that process harder so he might as well leave.

More correctly, Porzingis is a potential future assuming he improves his game and stays healthy. Secondly, his unexplained absence from the exit interviews is a rare and unique look at his character. First, it was arrogant and self-centered in a very bad way. Does he think he's a special snowflake? Or that the Knicks are all about him and his immediate gratifications? And what about letting the team hang in the media wind by not explaining the toxic rumors?

If I'm GM, I'm calling around to see what he's worth while he still has worth. If he's willing to throw the team under the bus so that somebody scratches his itch, he should also find the door. He'll do this again and again.

Another possible future could be the drafting of Lauri Markanen who the Knicks may see as this year's unicorn draft pick. If they confound the experts and draft big, the Knicks are going to have a Pacific Rim sized front-court. It could also mean revisiting Rubio, Rivers, or Randle/Baker. All consistent with an aggressive, competitive rebuild.

N'Dour is a Gaines find and will be in his magic third year next year. Without getting slap-happy, he could really shine after a good summer league stint. They'll be lots of competition.

I think Phil's best option for any under the cap cash will be to make beneficial trades in which he'll be able to absorb some excess salary.

The problem with Melo staying during a rebuild is many fold. Phil mentioned why it makes sense for him personally. But if he stays, how does he run with a pack of athletic gazelles? He'll simply harm his own legacy. And that's just a kickstarter for pragmatic incompatibility. He'd be crazy to stay.

knicks1248
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4/19/2017  8:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/19/2017  8:08 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

With all due respect why do you HATE rebuilding or building through the draft. I mean have you seen the past 17 years? We traded numerous first rounds picks and went "all in" every season and we became worse. I mean why not try an actual rebuild this time.


because you can't build through the draft period..

Here's how im rebuilding..I got KP a very good building block, i got melo, a solid veteran, I lucked up and get a above avg 2nd rounder..
I got 30 mill in cash and 10 open roster spots, which essentially is no roster at all. so now you're putting together a team from the ground up.

I am not going to grab 7 d leagues and hope they pan out, or put 7 other young guys who can't learn sht from each other because they are all looking for veteran leadership. I'm also not going to let my current young stars suffer through constant losing, because the only thing they are developing is losing habits.

The losing gets to the point where you are going trade those same young players who are not cutting it, for more establish players, because young players are looking at a stat sheets every night, not win win loss record. Then by the time that same young player you have been grooming, is sick of losing he bounces, in the process you will go through 2 or 3 coaches, and at least one new gm/prez.


No one is satisfied with losing, and that brings change every year Regardless. If there is no significant progress from yr to yr, you will change most of your roster from yr to yr if you have the flexibility, which then fcks up your chemistry, confuses your current players and the process starts all over. those same young players you drafted and thought would get it or make a difference, have done nothing for your franchise other than a few highlights..

ThE knicks change up almost every season, but when we had minimal cap space evry yr in the EWING era, we primarily kept the same roster, and was contending every yr, no young guys, just better vets, better trades. More importantly, they went after the type of players that fit the style they played, Harper, LJ, spreewell, tough rugged dudes.

If your in the lottery for 4 straight years, why would you be interested in building something that would see you in the draft for 4 more..this is also a business

ES
CrushAlot
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4/19/2017  8:04 PM
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
nixluva
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4/19/2017  8:12 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

fwk00
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4/19/2017  8:29 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

With all due respect why do you HATE rebuilding or building through the draft. I mean have you seen the past 17 years? We traded numerous first rounds picks and went "all in" every season and we became worse. I mean why not try an actual rebuild this time.


because you can't build through the draft period..

Here's how im rebuilding..I got KP a very good building block, i got melo, a solid veteran, I lucked up and get a above avg 2nd rounder..
I got 30 mill in cash and 10 open roster spots, which essentially is no roster at all. so now you're putting together a team from the ground up.

I am not going to grab 7 d leagues and hope they pan out, or put 7 other young guys who can't learn sht from each other because they are all looking for veteran leadership. I'm also not going to let my current young stars suffer through constant losing, because the only thing they are developing is losing habits.

The losing gets to the point where you are going trade those same young players who are not cutting it, for more establish players, because young players are looking at a stat sheets every night, not win win loss record. Then by the time that same young player you have been grooming, is sick of losing he bounces, in the process you will go through 2 or 3 coaches, and at least one new gm/prez.


No one is satisfied with losing, and that brings change every year Regardless. If there is no significant progress from yr to yr, you will change most of your roster from yr to yr if you have the flexibility, which then fcks up your chemistry, confuses your current players and the process starts all over. those same young players you drafted and thought would get it or make a difference, have done nothing for your franchise other than a few highlights..

ThE knicks change up almost every season, but when we had minimal cap space evry yr in the EWING era, we primarily kept the same roster, and was contending every yr, no young guys, just better vets, better trades. More importantly, they went after the type of players that fit the style they played, Harper, LJ, spreewell, tough rugged dudes.

If your in the lottery for 4 straight years, why would you be interested in building something that would see you in the draft for 4 more..this is also a business

What you seem to be advocating involves magical thinking. "Why can't the Knicks just make "good" trades that always work out and translate into wins? Everybody else does it? And the draft sucks."

Actually, this is precisely how most teams operate. How many are consistently, year after year, making progress? The answer, almost none. All trapped in the same cycle of good enough to make the playoffs, unfortunate enough to never improve enough.

CrushAlot
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4/19/2017  8:51 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!


So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
newyorknewyork
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4/19/2017  8:52 PM
We need to establish a core that can establish itself as a playoff team year in and year out. Melo and KP don't work since Melo is best as a 4 and KP isn't strong enough to play the 5. Knicks and Melo should part ways with Melo going to a contender and the Knicks looking to have a better balanced team. Need to replace Melo with a long athletic 2-way wing who can make an impact defensively on the perimeter. Need to swap KOQ with a big that is agile enough to excel at switching and covering stretch 4s and small ball 5s. Need an elite 2-way playmaking guard that makes teammates better.

Probably won't be able to cover all this ground in one off season though.

CrushAlot
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4/19/2017  9:08 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!


So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
yellowboy90
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4/19/2017  9:09 PM
martin wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?


Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

Jesus Bonn. Statements like this are so TMZ inflammatory and out of context that they just suck.

Let's just take Melo.

In 2012-13 the Knicks had a 54 win team with Melo averaging almost 29PPG, highest in the league, and 37 MPG. Legit MVP candidate. He was 28.

2013-14 Knicks didn't do as well but Melo still brought it. Played nearly 39 minutes per game. Scored 27.4 per game, shot 40% from 3pt land. 8 RPG. Played 77 games. Only 29.

Are you telling me as a GM you would NOT bring this type of guy back even if you knew you were gonna go through some sort of rebuild? He was an UFA.

I hate the NTC but Phil is in a pickle here and has zero leverage with Melo realistically. The owner wants him to have a marque guy and is in the hunt for all star game (or was that already decided). Dude just came off of an MPV quality season - and maybe another if the record is better?

Melo comes to him and says I really really really want to stay in NY and I just proved to the organization with 2 years of buff play. I am ready for 3-4 more years at this level. If I don't get NTC I walk.

What can Phil say to this? And as GM, would you be AOK with Melo walking for nothing as your first months on job?

Frankly, I didn't think Melo would break down this fast, he is a shell of himself. Sucks.

The issue is that you can survive with overpaying for a Melo or a Rose or a Noah but it is not smart to double or triple down on your bet by putting all three of them together.

The NTC is a big issue but lets take that out. You bring back Melo after a season removed from helping his team win 54. Wouldn't it be smart to study what made him and that team successful and try to mold your team in a similar image while making sure to strengthen some of that 54 win team weaknesses?

So far his Phil seems like someone who only looks at one side of a puzzle piece while falling to notice how the other sides of the piece don't fit in. He looks at the team a says we need someone who can get to the basket and goes out and gets Rose falling to understand how bad of a defender/passer he has been recently.

nixluva
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4/19/2017  9:19 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!


So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

yellowboy90
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4/19/2017  9:35 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!


So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

I know people think that Randle, Baker, Ndour, and Plumlee are coming back but I am not so sure. Baker is more than likely and Ndour has favor from Gaines but it would not surprise me in the least that they let them go. I also think O'Quinn will be on the block again and Kuz might be on the block too.

CrushAlot
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4/19/2017  9:38 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it


The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!


So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

you can't establish a culture if your roster is being turned over every year, you keep replacing coaches, and you keep switching systems. Hopefully the Knicks start to build a culture but nothing has been put in place for any length of time with Phil.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
What exaclty is your IDEA of a Rebuild

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