JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Losing brings so much doubt, so much negativity, brings down moral, confidence, brings constant changes. You just can't fully develop young players in that kind of atmosphere.

Of course, it does. But there's a clear difference between the typical Knicks way of losing by overpaying over the hill free agents, trading picks for bums and having no cap flexibility vs losing with a young potential franchise player, having additional lottery picks and flexibility for the future. That's a way of losing that any losing organization will gladly deal with.

JrZyHuStLa is 100% right... you need to let the young guys take their lumps. Its part of the process

Knixkik wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Gudris wrote:we need to see 5-10 games like this(Melo, Rose and Noah out) to see KP real potential as team leader, one back to back game is not enough

We need to see him struggle though, because it will tell him what he really needs to improve over the offseason. No question he wants to be great. Struggling now as the go-to guy will help him understand how to become great long-term.

Agree 1000%

And what's amazing is so many here are saying he's not worth building around because of how he is struggling. But struggling now is exactly what he should be doing. It should not be smooth sailing to develop how we want him to. But so many lack the patience, they never learn.

Many on this forum have a "battered wife" syndrome....when their husband is good/not cheating/etc....they love him...when he starts running around and kicking their ***...they want to run away and complain...........because of the tortuous years many have gone through with the team it is understandable.....but whe you have a good prospect still growing into his own and more importantly...something you eluded to...WITh A SENSE OF MOTIVATION & DRIVE.....you give them time to develop......

I remember the NYTimes knicks forum back in the day the same debates that folks used to have about Jon Wallace/Mike Sweetney/pick your prospect.....these players had nowhere near the upside KP has and you see them foaming at the mouth now when KP cannot dominate or hold his own on "some" nights. They are quick to forget how KP played against Golden State and Drymond....

KP is still figuring it out....but once he gets this down pat.....they are yelling save my seat....on the bandwagon

holfresh wrote:Watching the game last night was rather scary in terms of what the team might look like, post Melo and Rose...But what stood out most was how KP was operating being the lead guy...I don't think the organization is doing enough surrounding him with people working on his development...KP's game need refinement and polish...He needs at least 5 go to moves in spots where he is most comfortable on the court...This kid has so much talent, he can hit from anywhere on the court, and too often, it's off balance...He needs to refine his game to get the spots where his game is automatic, blindfolded...Who in this organization is leading him in that direction??..They have to teach this kid to be a franchise player..From what I'm seeing, it's just scatter shots all over the barn... The only person working with the kid diligently is his brother?? still??..I mean this is the NBA..This is the problem I have with the Knicks organizational infrastructure..It's not developed with players who are vested Knickerbocker basketball..Guys who are here just for the Organization..Most here is just picking up a paycheck...

KP and Willy needs to learn better defensive positioning in the post...Rambis can help with this..But do they trust or listen to Rambis given the current toxic environment??..The way the triangle is being forced on them??..They need a guy like Patrick teaching them how to defend the post...Where they should be before the ball arrives...Teaching KP the nuances in being a franchise player..

Phil is a diva and is worried about his own agenda..He isn't with the team all the time lending advice based on his experiences...We need people in the Organization helping these guys take their game to the next level..Please hire Patrick and Mark Jackson in this Organization...This is on Dolan and he is clueless...Mills should be all over this..

I rarely agree with Holfresh, but no doubt about this one. KP is not getting well-coached, and it's an organizational dysfunction. Corporate structure not well-suited to build winners. Sad but true.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Losing brings so much doubt, so much negativity, brings down moral, confidence, brings constant changes. You just can't fully develop young players in that kind of atmosphere.

Of course, it does. But there's a clear difference between the typical Knicks way of losing by overpaying over the hill free agents, trading picks for bums and having no cap flexibility vs losing with a young potential franchise player, having additional lottery picks and flexibility for the future. That's a way of losing that any losing organization will gladly deal with.

and most players taken high in the draft deal with some losing. The 3 years Steph Curry spent the lottery doesnt seem to hurt him. The years that Isiah Thomas and Whiteside spent in Sac hasnt seemed to ruin them. Tyson Chandler won a title and a couple DPOYs after all that losing as a baby Bull with Eddie Curry. Want to do this all day? Its just ridiculous.

JrZyHuStLa is 100% right... you need to let the young guys take their lumps. Its part of the process

Dont believe its a good idea to assume that KP will be ok with year after year in the lottery. Its a different league. Going all Philly and tanking year after year isnt a great way to keep KP in NY. Im for a gradual build like we were doing last season until Phil decided to flush the plan and go for the quick fix.

The other extreme is to make the season about lotto picks for the following season. Has to be a middle ground. Build the team around KP while he learns the game, but still trying to be competitive.

I actually dont think we are that far away. Phili would be KP and the next best player would be Jose Calderon or something equally terrible.

If it was me I would just draft this year. Let Rose walk. Move Melo for the best deal possible. Draft and keep my options open.

Add more youth. You have Lance/Lee/Noah as vets to help lead. Two guys I would look to add would be Patty Mills or Shaun Livingston. Give me some veteran depth at guard. If your 4 main vets are Lance/Noah/Lee/Mills you have some good tough 2 way players.

We saw the good things that happen last night when Rose and Melo arent dominating the ball, for better of worse. I agree that we arent very far off from the playoffs with some smart moves. The important thing IMO is to show KP a team on the rise, an upwards trajectory.

If Porzingis feels the team is mostly about the draft, I dont believe its a stretch to think he might consider walking. His willingness this season to speak his mind about the state of the team is an early sign. Glad KP is speaking up, hope mgmt listens.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Losing brings so much doubt, so much negativity, brings down moral, confidence, brings constant changes. You just can't fully develop young players in that kind of atmosphere.

Of course, it does. But there's a clear difference between the typical Knicks way of losing by overpaying over the hill free agents, trading picks for bums and having no cap flexibility vs losing with a young potential franchise player, having additional lottery picks and flexibility for the future. That's a way of losing that any losing organization will gladly deal with.

and most players taken high in the draft deal with some losing. The 3 years Steph Curry spent the lottery doesnt seem to hurt him. The years that Isiah Thomas and Whiteside spent in Sac hasnt seemed to ruin them. Tyson Chandler won a title and a couple DPOYs after all that losing as a baby Bull with Eddie Curry. Want to do this all day? Its just ridiculous.

JrZyHuStLa is 100% right... you need to let the young guys take their lumps. Its part of the process

Dont believe its a good idea to assume that KP will be ok with year after year in the lottery. Its a different league. Going all Philly and tanking year after year isnt a great way to keep KP in NY. Im for a gradual build like we were doing last season until Phil decided to flush the plan and go for the quick fix.

The other extreme is to make the season about lotto picks for the following season. Has to be a middle ground. Build the team around KP while he learns the game, but still trying to be competitive.

I actually dont think we are that far away. Phili would be KP and the next best player would be Jose Calderon or something equally terrible.

If it was me I would just draft this year. Let Rose walk. Move Melo for the best deal possible. Draft and keep my options open.

Add more youth. You have Lance/Lee/Noah as vets to help lead. Two guys I would look to add would be Patty Mills or Shaun Livingston. Give me some veteran depth at guard. If your 4 main vets are Lance/Noah/Lee/Mills you have some good tough 2 way players.

We saw the good things that happen last night when Rose and Melo arent dominating the ball, for better of worse. I agree that we arent very far off from the playoffs with some smart moves. The important thing IMO is to show KP a team on the rise, an upwards trajectory.

If Porzingis feels the team is mostly about the draft, I dont believe its a stretch to think he might consider walking. His willingness this season to speak his mind about the state of the team is an early sign. Glad KP is speaking up, hope mgmt listens.

i doubt KP walks. He has 2 years left on his rookie deal and he would still be a RFA. By that time we should be on the upswing. Plus he loves NY

In 2 years, if we're in the same place we are now, making the same mistakes, I definitely believe KP will consider walking. I wouldnt blame him under the circumstances. Unless he went to the Nets. That would be uncivilized.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Losing brings so much doubt, so much negativity, brings down moral, confidence, brings constant changes. You just can't fully develop young players in that kind of atmosphere.

Of course, it does. But there's a clear difference between the typical Knicks way of losing by overpaying over the hill free agents, trading picks for bums and having no cap flexibility vs losing with a young potential franchise player, having additional lottery picks and flexibility for the future. That's a way of losing that any losing organization will gladly deal with.

and most players taken high in the draft deal with some losing. The 3 years Steph Curry spent the lottery doesnt seem to hurt him. The years that Isiah Thomas and Whiteside spent in Sac hasnt seemed to ruin them. Tyson Chandler won a title and a couple DPOYs after all that losing as a baby Bull with Eddie Curry. Want to do this all day? Its just ridiculous.

JrZyHuStLa is 100% right... you need to let the young guys take their lumps. Its part of the process

Dont believe its a good idea to assume that KP will be ok with year after year in the lottery. Its a different league. Going all Philly and tanking year after year isnt a great way to keep KP in NY. Im for a gradual build like we were doing last season until Phil decided to flush the plan and go for the quick fix.

The other extreme is to make the season about lotto picks for the following season. Has to be a middle ground. Build the team around KP while he learns the game, but still trying to be competitive.

I actually dont think we are that far away. Phili would be KP and the next best player would be Jose Calderon or something equally terrible.

If it was me I would just draft this year. Let Rose walk. Move Melo for the best deal possible. Draft and keep my options open.

Add more youth. You have Lance/Lee/Noah as vets to help lead. Two guys I would look to add would be Patty Mills or Shaun Livingston. Give me some veteran depth at guard. If your 4 main vets are Lance/Noah/Lee/Mills you have some good tough 2 way players.

We saw the good things that happen last night when Rose and Melo arent dominating the ball, for better of worse. I agree that we arent very far off from the playoffs with some smart moves. The important thing IMO is to show KP a team on the rise, an upwards trajectory.

If Porzingis feels the team is mostly about the draft, I dont believe its a stretch to think he might consider walking. His willingness this season to speak his mind about the state of the team is an early sign. Glad KP is speaking up, hope mgmt listens.

i doubt KP walks. He has 2 years left on his rookie deal and he would still be a RFA. By that time we should be on the upswing. Plus he loves NY

In 2 years, if we're in the same place we are now, making the same mistakes, I definitely believe KP will consider walking. I wouldnt blame him under the circumstances. Unless he went to the Nets. That would be uncivilized.

he cant even if he wanted to he would be a RFA

KP tells Phil he doesnt want to be a Knick anymore, its not going to matter what his contract says. You dont max out a player who doesnt want to be there.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Losing brings so much doubt, so much negativity, brings down moral, confidence, brings constant changes. You just can't fully develop young players in that kind of atmosphere.

Of course, it does. But there's a clear difference between the typical Knicks way of losing by overpaying over the hill free agents, trading picks for bums and having no cap flexibility vs losing with a young potential franchise player, having additional lottery picks and flexibility for the future. That's a way of losing that any losing organization will gladly deal with.

and most players taken high in the draft deal with some losing. The 3 years Steph Curry spent the lottery doesnt seem to hurt him. The years that Isiah Thomas and Whiteside spent in Sac hasnt seemed to ruin them. Tyson Chandler won a title and a couple DPOYs after all that losing as a baby Bull with Eddie Curry. Want to do this all day? Its just ridiculous.

JrZyHuStLa is 100% right... you need to let the young guys take their lumps. Its part of the process

Dont believe its a good idea to assume that KP will be ok with year after year in the lottery. Its a different league. Going all Philly and tanking year after year isnt a great way to keep KP in NY. Im for a gradual build like we were doing last season until Phil decided to flush the plan and go for the quick fix.

The other extreme is to make the season about lotto picks for the following season. Has to be a middle ground. Build the team around KP while he learns the game, but still trying to be competitive.

I actually dont think we are that far away. Phili would be KP and the next best player would be Jose Calderon or something equally terrible.

If it was me I would just draft this year. Let Rose walk. Move Melo for the best deal possible. Draft and keep my options open.

Add more youth. You have Lance/Lee/Noah as vets to help lead. Two guys I would look to add would be Patty Mills or Shaun Livingston. Give me some veteran depth at guard. If your 4 main vets are Lance/Noah/Lee/Mills you have some good tough 2 way players.

We saw the good things that happen last night when Rose and Melo arent dominating the ball, for better of worse. I agree that we arent very far off from the playoffs with some smart moves. The important thing IMO is to show KP a team on the rise, an upwards trajectory.

If Porzingis feels the team is mostly about the draft, I dont believe its a stretch to think he might consider walking. His willingness this season to speak his mind about the state of the team is an early sign. Glad KP is speaking up, hope mgmt listens.

i doubt KP walks. He has 2 years left on his rookie deal and he would still be a RFA. By that time we should be on the upswing. Plus he loves NY

In 2 years, if we're in the same place we are now, making the same mistakes, I definitely believe KP will consider walking. I wouldnt blame him under the circumstances. Unless he went to the Nets. That would be uncivilized.

he cant even if he wanted to he would be a RFA

KP tells Phil he doesnt want to be a Knick anymore, its not going to matter what his contract says. You dont max out a player who doesnt want to be there.

yes but this is all worst case scenerio. Chances are that wont happen.

Hope you're right. Im all for Phil building something in the next couple of years that removes this possibility. Make sure KP knows the team is being built with him in mind, not aging veterans.

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Losing brings so much doubt, so much negativity, brings down moral, confidence, brings constant changes. You just can't fully develop young players in that kind of atmosphere.

Of course, it does. But there's a clear difference between the typical Knicks way of losing by overpaying over the hill free agents, trading picks for bums and having no cap flexibility vs losing with a young potential franchise player, having additional lottery picks and flexibility for the future. That's a way of losing that any losing organization will gladly deal with.

and most players taken high in the draft deal with some losing. The 3 years Steph Curry spent the lottery doesnt seem to hurt him. The years that Isiah Thomas and Whiteside spent in Sac hasnt seemed to ruin them. Tyson Chandler won a title and a couple DPOYs after all that losing as a baby Bull with Eddie Curry. Want to do this all day? Its just ridiculous.

JrZyHuStLa is 100% right... you need to let the young guys take their lumps. Its part of the process

Dont believe its a good idea to assume that KP will be ok with year after year in the lottery. Its a different league. Going all Philly and tanking year after year isnt a great way to keep KP in NY. Im for a gradual build like we were doing last season until Phil decided to flush the plan and go for the quick fix.

The other extreme is to make the season about lotto picks for the following season. Has to be a middle ground. Build the team around KP while he learns the game, but still trying to be competitive.

I actually dont think we are that far away. Phili would be KP and the next best player would be Jose Calderon or something equally terrible.

If it was me I would just draft this year. Let Rose walk. Move Melo for the best deal possible. Draft and keep my options open.

Add more youth. You have Lance/Lee/Noah as vets to help lead. Two guys I would look to add would be Patty Mills or Shaun Livingston. Give me some veteran depth at guard. If your 4 main vets are Lance/Noah/Lee/Mills you have some good tough 2 way players.

We saw the good things that happen last night when Rose and Melo arent dominating the ball, for better of worse. I agree that we arent very far off from the playoffs with some smart moves. The important thing IMO is to show KP a team on the rise, an upwards trajectory.

If Porzingis feels the team is mostly about the draft, I dont believe its a stretch to think he might consider walking. His willingness this season to speak his mind about the state of the team is an early sign. Glad KP is speaking up, hope mgmt listens.

i doubt KP walks. He has 2 years left on his rookie deal and he would still be a RFA. By that time we should be on the upswing. Plus he loves NY

In 2 years, if we're in the same place we are now, making the same mistakes, I definitely believe KP will consider walking. I wouldnt blame him under the circumstances. Unless he went to the Nets. That would be uncivilized.

he cant even if he wanted to he would be a RFA

KP tells Phil he doesnt want to be a Knick anymore, its not going to matter what his contract says. You dont max out a player who doesnt want to be there.

yes but this is all worst case scenerio. Chances are that wont happen.

KP knows he's outliving Phil in NY, so it won't happen. How his relationship is with Mills and Houston is what's important.

Dont believe Mills being the last man standing is a great recruiting tool to keep KP in NY. Especially if the Knicks are still treading water in a couple of years. I hope a new GM has been installed before then. If not, at the very least Phil has left KP a team he can go to battle with. That is going to be more important than his relationship with Mills IMO.