holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

stanleybostitch wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:These 2 guys do not have them mental make up to be the heart and soul of a team, there just solid pieces to a deep team.

Crazy. And who has this magical mental makeup? Melo? C'mon 1248, let's hear some Melo apologetics...

When i talk mental make up, it has nothing to do with talent. Just like melo and rose, these dudes are not leaders, they dont have that KG, Alonzo, LJ, Ewing, leadership attributes. The worst part about it all, they are being develop in a toxic, losing environment, so they are developing losing habits. You can see how they continue to make the same mistakes almost every other possession, let alone game.

We still have to find that leader, that guy who's going to come in an not except losing, that guy who is going to be vocal and push, and get on you when you fail an assignment, be a on court coach. That guy doesn't even have to be the most talent player, he just needs to have that fire. Your going to still need your kp, your aldridge, your Love, melo, and rose. you just can't ask those players to be leaders, because thats not their mental make up, you need other players in that role

Myth..Who is the leader on GS...Draymond Green is an idiot..Who is the leader on SA..Myth...

DRAYMOND is a glue guy, energy guy, and big mouth guy, dirty work guy. lets not include SA in any of our comparisons. That franchise is A1, from top to bottom, their players are in the right roles across the board and they win, so development is quicker, smarter, and consistent.

Next yr KP and Will might be playing with whole different roster, more growing pains, when phil is gone in a yr or 2, whole new system, with probably another roster flip

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

We should keep running them out there together. I dont care if they get destroyed on D. Let them figure it out.

I would also like to see them play with Lance and Lee at the 2/3 which would improve the defense behind them and simplify their assignments a bit. The thing that really jumps out in these highlights is Willy's high BB IQ. This isnt a guy who is overwhelming guys. His instincts are excellent and he's got the quickness to execute at this level. Those floats are unstoppable and he can hit those (very tough shots to master) he will be an elite offensive player in this league. It means anytime he's 7 feet away and he catches the ball you have to fly to him and as we have seen from his passing he is a guy who can really make you pay for doing that.

Both players have excellent range and complimentary skills. Making broad sweeping judgement about their defensive futures at this point is silly. This is a process. If we lose games while these two guys take their lumps and sort through how to do this that is called rebuilding. KP and Willy are very hard working players. They will get better in every facet that they can. Having Noah and Plumlee behind them are perfect blue collar guys as well. Obviously Noah's contract is terrible but he's off the books when its time to pay Willy, and he's got he game you want these guys to mimic.

Lance and Lee at the 2 and 3 with their defense and shooting are necessary if starting KP and Willy. Add a legit PG and we are onto something.

I think so too. We just need to put guys around them who can defend the perimeter (to keep them out of foul trouble), pass the ball (so they can get the shots that work for them best), and shoot the ball if they are open (in case teams double).

Also us fans need to give it some time. in 2-3 seasons they could both be beast based on physical development.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Teams were adversarial in nature back in the day...So there needed to be that guy who kept them focused in battle..It's a lot different these days...Guys are buddy buddy with each other...I'm not sure how much of a role that plays in today's game...The good players have a yearning to win, that's good enough today...Guys are resting taking games off..There isn't a drive to win every game they way it used to be...

agreed. I know we dont tend to see eye to eye alot but you are absolutely right. I miss the old days. It was a much tougher league and guys hated losing to eachother and were adversaries. I loved watching knicks/pacers or knicks/heat or knick/bulls in the 90s because they wanted to beat the hell out of eachother. Now everybody is best friends it seems

This post may need framing..We Agree!!!

ive actually agreed with you on many things in the past. I just thought you didnt like me for some reason

Naw..It's never personal..Just dueling ideas about how to make the Knicks better..Can't take it beyond that..Does get passionate at times but that's it..Just passion..

wargames wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

We should keep running them out there together. I dont care if they get destroyed on D. Let them figure it out.

I would also like to see them play with Lance and Lee at the 2/3 which would improve the defense behind them and simplify their assignments a bit. The thing that really jumps out in these highlights is Willy's high BB IQ. This isnt a guy who is overwhelming guys. His instincts are excellent and he's got the quickness to execute at this level. Those floats are unstoppable and he can hit those (very tough shots to master) he will be an elite offensive player in this league. It means anytime he's 7 feet away and he catches the ball you have to fly to him and as we have seen from his passing he is a guy who can really make you pay for doing that.

Both players have excellent range and complimentary skills. Making broad sweeping judgement about their defensive futures at this point is silly. This is a process. If we lose games while these two guys take their lumps and sort through how to do this that is called rebuilding. KP and Willy are very hard working players. They will get better in every facet that they can. Having Noah and Plumlee behind them are perfect blue collar guys as well. Obviously Noah's contract is terrible but he's off the books when its time to pay Willy, and he's got he game you want these guys to mimic.

Lance and Lee at the 2 and 3 with their defense and shooting are necessary if starting KP and Willy. Add a legit PG and we are onto something.

I think so too. We just need to put guys around them who can defend the perimeter (to keep them out of foul trouble), pass the ball (so they can get the shots that work for them best), and shoot the ball if they are open (in case teams double).

Also us fans need to give it some time. in 2-3 seasons they could both be beast based on physical development.

Exactly! A certain amount of patience is necessary with KP and Willy. Not only are they young but coming from Europe with a different approach to the game. They don't have the same approach as American players and in some areas they're better, like having good skill level and BB IQ but they don't have the same physical training and aggressive approach to the game. They have to adjust to this style of play.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Teams were adversarial in nature back in the day...So there needed to be that guy who kept them focused in battle..It's a lot different these days...Guys are buddy buddy with each other...I'm not sure how much of a role that plays in today's game...The good players have a yearning to win, that's good enough today...Guys are resting taking games off..There isn't a drive to win every game they way it used to be...

agreed. I know we dont tend to see eye to eye alot but you are absolutely right. I miss the old days. It was a much tougher league and guys hated losing to eachother and were adversaries. I loved watching knicks/pacers or knicks/heat or knick/bulls in the 90s because they wanted to beat the hell out of eachother. Now everybody is best friends it seems

This post may need framing..We Agree!!!

ive actually agreed with you on many things in the past. I just thought you didnt like me for some reason

Naw..It's never personal..Just dueling ideas about how to make the Knicks better..Can't take it beyond that..Does get passionate at times but that's it..Just passion..

passion is good and i respect that. I just felt we could have had some great conversations in the past but they were derailed because we might have gotten on eachothers nerves at times. I take some blame for that but hopefully we have good conversations in the future. Its tough to be a knick fan right now BUT hopefully good times will come eventually

I definitely agree with starks..this is such a buddy, buddy, league..those games became so much fun because it started in the playoffs, and talk about intense...crazy

holfresh wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Teams were adversarial in nature back in the day...So there needed to be that guy who kept them focused in battle..It's a lot different these days...Guys are buddy buddy with each other...I'm not sure how much of a role that plays in today's game...The good players have a yearning to win, that's good enough today...Guys are resting taking games off..There isn't a drive to win every game they way it used to be...

agreed. I know we dont tend to see eye to eye alot but you are absolutely right. I miss the old days. It was a much tougher league and guys hated losing to eachother and were adversaries. I loved watching knicks/pacers or knicks/heat or knick/bulls in the 90s because they wanted to beat the hell out of eachother. Now everybody is best friends it seems

This post may need framing..We Agree!!!

Frame this: I agree!!!
Lots of reasons for this, AAU, Same Agents, mutual investments, with one and dones, teams don't play for schools and push rivalries over to the pro's, they are hugging it out after a year and shopping together!! Maybe the lack of racial tensions might contribute like there was back in the day. Thats a good thing!!!
Also, the league imposes some heavy penalty for fighting as well, flagrant fouls and suspensions.
The solidarity of players union has also unified players off the court.

ALso the money is silly. These guys super wealthy and brands to protect.

knicks1248 wrote:Were the only team in the league with just 1 player that been the riser more than 2 yrs. That's fcnk insane..

It's also not the point. This team is in need of TOP TIER TALENT and it would not make any sense keeping lower tier talent for multiple years. None of the players we let go would've made this a Contender so big whup that we didn't keep them.

I think you focus WAY too much on these kinds of things. This team needs a big influx of talent and it's crystal clear that they haven't been successful going the Free Agent route. Time to focus on a more natural build over time rather than instant gratification which didn't work.

What do you suggest this team should do in order to finally build a long term winner?

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Were the only team in the league with just 1 player that been the riser more than 2 yrs. That's fcnk insane..

It's also not the point. This team is in need of TOP TIER TALENT and it would not make any sense keeping lower tier talent for multiple years. None of the players we let go would've made this a Contender so big whup that we didn't keep them.

I think you focus WAY too much on these kinds of things. This team needs a big influx of talent and it's crystal clear that they haven't been successful going the Free Agent route. Time to focus on a more natural build over time rather than instant gratification which didn't work.

What do you suggest this team should do in order to finally build a long term winner?

I posted an article the other day on roster continuity. I think you could make the case that it is a big part of what makes a franchise successful. Also, if you are running a system like the triangle you need continuity. The only good thing all of the resets and system flopping has achieved are two accidental tanks.

Continuity is good when you have the right base of players. When you start with JRSmith, Shumpert and Flu Chandler and tear that down, one would expect turnover. Turnover also means you are upgrading the talent, which is also a good thing.

The question with Willy and KP isn't how much we like them as individual players - both guys are very good and can bring something to the table.

The question is - can they be on the floor together against a team that has a stretch 4. Can KP be on the floor next to a center against any team with a stretch 4?

They're young, maybe they can figure it out... but the basic philosophy of having them on the floor together the way the league works now is tough. And that is starting to show itself in the stats.