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Time to hold players accountable.
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holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

3/23/2017  4:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/23/2017  5:31 PM
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I can give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

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HofstraBBall
Posts: 27152
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

3/23/2017  5:23 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/23/2017  5:49 PM
This is why the Knicks suck. And Knick fans get what they deserve year after year. They hope for one guy to make a difference. Draft pick, Melo, KP etc etc. If they dont win it all they bash him. Already starting with KP and Willy. Has been done for several years, with Melo, by every armchair stroke job on here. Every thread seems to go back to Melo or Rose. No one here knows much about hi level organized basketball. Success takes a system/coach/GM that everyone wants to play for. A GROUP of talented players from 1 to 10. Ownership/director, coaches and staff who have a clear and consistent direction and teaching points. That is not Phil, Dolan or the triangle. All you guys can keep kicking rocks around and trying to show off that you have the solutuon by elimination but its simple, we don't have enough talent, owner sucks, Phil is antiquated and sabotages players and coaches, Triangle is something no other NBA player is familiar with or wants to be a part of. Threads blaming Melo or Rose or KP is just a bunch of bull****. This team would still suck without anyone of those three. Everyone keeps missing the point because they are either too ignorant or afraid to admit it. We have no plan past the next two years. Phil is probably leaving. The Triangle will be gone and NO ONE wants to come here. Think that would be something we should worry about more over how we would just kill it without Melo, Rose or anyone else. We need a Ten year plan, get a GM/owner who is not going to make us more isolated and a bigger joke year after year. We need a GM/coach that has the next great system. Not one that was great 20 years ago, with help of some of the best players of all time. We need to change the appeal for NBA free agents.(Triangle doesn't help) We need to get lucky with draft picks and have reasonable and consistent time tables for them. Which includes focuaing on working on their weaknesses. But not giving up on them and trading them for nothing..ie Shump, THJ. Many on here can keep fighting about who's favorite player is better or doesnt suck as much as the other guys. But that has turned into a big yawn here.
'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
newyorknewyork
Posts: 29852
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
3/23/2017  5:37 PM
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

3/23/2017  6:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/23/2017  6:24 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

I hear the argument a lot about the team had run it course..Why resign Melo then??..Grunwald said he had an Aldridge trade on the table before we traded for Bargs before he was fired..I don't believe it but he said it..He said he didn't approve the Bargs trade..So, who did, Mills??

newyorknewyork
Posts: 29852
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
3/23/2017  7:40 PM
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

I hear the argument a lot about the team had run it course..Why resign Melo then??..Grunwald said he had an Aldridge trade on the table before we traded for Bargs before he was fired..I don't believe it but he said it..He said he didn't approve the Bargs trade..So, who did, Mills??

I remember Grunwald being against it. If I remember correctly he was fired right before the season. But that's a different convo. Regardless of how it went down. Trading for Bargs eliminated the small window we had available to retool. This was all before Jackson was hired. In order to retool. We would have had to move Felton with that draft pick offered for Bargnani for an upgrade at PG or JKidd replacement that wasn't washed up. Then when we drafted Hardaway we would instead need to draft a guy like Gobert who was taken after Hardaway and hit on a draft pick. Then as Tyson and Amare come off the books. Look to see if Tyson can be moved to fill other needs.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

3/23/2017  7:45 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

I hear the argument a lot about the team had run it course..Why resign Melo then??..Grunwald said he had an Aldridge trade on the table before we traded for Bargs before he was fired..I don't believe it but he said it..He said he didn't approve the Bargs trade..So, who did, Mills??

I remember Grunwald being against it. If I remember correctly he was fired right before the season. But that's a different convo. Regardless of how it went down. Trading for Bargs eliminated the small window we had available to retool. This was all before Jackson was hired. In order to retool. We would have had to move Felton with that draft pick offered for Bargnani for an upgrade at PG or JKidd replacement that wasn't washed up. Then when we drafted Hardaway we would instead need to draft a guy like Gobert who was taken after Hardaway and hit on a draft pick. Then as Tyson and Amare come off the books. Look to see if Tyson can be moved to fill other needs.

Bargs was on a one year deal, Amare and Chandler was coming off the books the next year..We resigned Melo after that..So We could have retooled..I don't understand why Bargs changed everything..Hiring Phil changed everything becuase he want to run the triangle..

newyorknewyork
Posts: 29852
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
3/23/2017  8:24 PM
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

I hear the argument a lot about the team had run it course..Why resign Melo then??..Grunwald said he had an Aldridge trade on the table before we traded for Bargs before he was fired..I don't believe it but he said it..He said he didn't approve the Bargs trade..So, who did, Mills??

I remember Grunwald being against it. If I remember correctly he was fired right before the season. But that's a different convo. Regardless of how it went down. Trading for Bargs eliminated the small window we had available to retool. This was all before Jackson was hired. In order to retool. We would have had to move Felton with that draft pick offered for Bargnani for an upgrade at PG or JKidd replacement that wasn't washed up. Then when we drafted Hardaway we would instead need to draft a guy like Gobert who was taken after Hardaway and hit on a draft pick. Then as Tyson and Amare come off the books. Look to see if Tyson can be moved to fill other needs.

Bargs was on a one year deal, Amare and Chandler was coming off the books the next year..We resigned Melo after that..So We could have retooled..I don't understand why Bargs changed everything..Hiring Phil changed everything becuase he want to run the triangle..

Because after we traded for Bargs the only avenue we had to retool was through FA at a time frame which everyone had cap space. Many teams in the east also gotten significantly better. Like Toronto and Cleveland and Washington and Charlotte and Boston. With the amount of holes we had to replace expecting to retool back to a 54 win team competing for ECC with only cap space. While teams have cap space AND 2-3 players in there prime already with draft picks coming along.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Nalod
Posts: 68482
Alba Posts: 154
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
3/24/2017  8:47 AM
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

I hear the argument a lot about the team had run it course..Why resign Melo then??..Grunwald said he had an Aldridge trade on the table before we traded for Bargs before he was fired..I don't believe it but he said it..He said he didn't approve the Bargs trade..So, who did, Mills??

Why not do the research and figure it out instead of pinning it on Mills. I thought Mills replaced Grunwald then Phil came on board in march of that season.

IN my view We lost to Indy because the team ran out of steam. Fatigue played a part as the team could not put Boston away quickly. They dressed for Boston's funeral, Melo was a diva, and JR did some stupid Elbow flagrant thing. Didn't the series get prolonged for foolishness?

Yes, Team was not constructed right but that was still the hangover from paying too much for Melo. Melo was never Lebron like in ability to carry a team. The knicks for years discarded assets for short term solutions.

Who was on the table for Aldridge?, what was his contract status? Time and place is important to evaluate a deal, not "we coulda had.....".

StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

3/24/2017  9:29 AM
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
fishmike wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Nalod wrote:
holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?


Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...
Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.


The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!
No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.


You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!


You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?

I could give you blow by blow of the playoffs that year..And who on this board killed Woodson for not beating the Pacers..Melo needed help and only Shump showed up..JR was playing on a torn menicus, the same injury Lin wouldn't play on..Flu Tyson got housed by Hibbert..Lance played well for them..Their team effort outplayed Melo..We could have retooled..

The problem is that after the 54 win season we had limited room for error. If we were to keep going. We relied on contributions from Kidd, Sheed, KT who were on their last legs. Tyson and Felton were on the decline. We had Amare eating our cap up. We had to replace Tyson, Felton, Amare all with younger upgrades. What do we do. We trade our draft pick for Bargnani.

I hear the argument a lot about the team had run it course..Why resign Melo then??..Grunwald said he had an Aldridge trade on the table before we traded for Bargs before he was fired..I don't believe it but he said it..He said he didn't approve the Bargs trade..So, who did, Mills??

Why not do the research and figure it out instead of pinning it on Mills. I thought Mills replaced Grunwald then Phil came on board in march of that season.

IN my view We lost to Indy because the team ran out of steam. Fatigue played a part as the team could not put Boston away quickly. They dressed for Boston's funeral, Melo was a diva, and JR did some stupid Elbow flagrant thing. Didn't the series get prolonged for foolishness?

Yes, Team was not constructed right but that was still the hangover from paying too much for Melo. Melo was never Lebron like in ability to carry a team. The knicks for years discarded assets for short term solutions.

Who was on the table for Aldridge?, what was his contract status? Time and place is important to evaluate a deal, not "we coulda had.....".

This
Time to hold players accountable.

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