holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

October 4, 2005: Traded Jermaine Jackson, Mike Sweetney, Tim Thomas, a 2006 1st round draft pick (LaMarcus Aldridge was later selected), a 2007 1st round draft pick (Joakim Noah was later selected), a 2007 2nd round draft pick (Kyrylo Fesenko was later selected) and a 2009 2nd round draft pick (Jon Brockman was later selected) to the Chicago Bulls for Eddy Curry, Antonio Davis and a 2007 1st round draft pick (Wilson Chandler was later selected).

That resulted in a 23 win season (with no picks).

See? There are ALWAYS other options!

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

Okay now we have ton of cap space. 1 top 4 pick 2015(KP), #21 2015, Shumpert and Hardaway Jr.

Then what who do we sign with all this cap space? Wesley Mathews? Greg Monroe? Demarr Carroll? Why do any of them sign with us over playoff teams they signed to?

Maybe we could have offered Corey Joseph a overpaid contract and starting role to entice him from other suitors. Next year we have no pick, but still have major cap space. Who are we signing. Dwight Howard? Dwayne Wade? Deon Waiters?, Even Turner? How do these guys help the rebuild though? Harrison Barnes does he choose this situation over Dallas do we even want to pay him the money he got?

If Phil was really good GM though I guess all the undrafted FA brought in should be making major impacts 2 years in since that's normal.

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy in the long haul..

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...

I think you are looking at things in the near moment. Yes, melo is our best player but he is unable to play and defend the 4 for a full game and a season. Maybe unwilling, but I don't know.
He is an elite shooter and can pass, but that is inconsistent for what ever reason. At 33 he is likely to not improve in areas he is deficient.

What you say about KP is "does not have the frame" suggests he won't fill out. This has been addressed where Knicks said they think he is wide in the hips, and a strong core that he will get stronger.
What I can't say is "for sure". What I can't say is when.

SO perhaps you see things in the current context where team construction is about the next day, next game, next week, next month and even next season, and the seasons after that.

In what context is Melo a better defender at the 4 than KP? Some people see what they want to see, that doesn't mean what they see is real. How do you compare defense by position? What data is out there? I am asking because I don't know. I looked at 82games.com which Bonn1997 pointed out earlier to me.

KP holds his opponent PFs to 17.7 points PER48 http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM
Melo holds opponent PFs to 19.1 points PER48 http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM

I would say KP is the better defender

When Playing the 4

Melo is +4.6
KP is + 2.2

On this Melo is better

Melo's Win% playing PF - 35%
KP's win% playing PF - 41%
No contest

Team does better with KP on court and team does better with Melo off court

Also if you compare KP's contributions as PF and as Center - he clearly does much better playing PF

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:KP and Willy just got mauled last night..Not just by Gobert but by his back up too...Not a good time for this thread because no one will hold them accountable...

After seeing KP and Gobert hug after the game, Breen said there goes two of the "best young bigs" in the league..It's like he didn't see the game..JVG probably gagged on that one..He was telling it like it is all game about how bad our bigs can't defend..Gobert outplayed KP but he isn't consider one of the best young bigs...He is a really good interior defender...But let's continue to deflect and say it's Melo, Rose and the triangle...

We can't defend for the nth time and won't next year either with our heads in the sand...

Any thought that the kids can improve their defense?

Sure..I think Willy can really improve because he has the frame to bulk up...KP will struggle, he just doesn't have the frame for strength needed to fight off bigs for 82 game and draw the best defenders(team post Melo)..So can they really play together??..It's a long shot to me...But the current narrative is trying to re-frame the debate by suggesting the issue is Melo and Rose..The debate is whether or not we can rebuild around these two players playing the same position...

Well KP and Willy give you hope and have upside. They are 21/22 respectively. However we know that Melo no longer has a position in the NBA. He cant defend 3s or 4 and holds the ball. Rose cant defend 1s or 2s and over dribbles.

Rose has not been a good player for a few years. Neither has Melo. Its time to move on from vets who think they are better than the are and dont play team ball. Tough to understand for you but many understand this.

The Melo comments are stupid because he is the best 4 defender on the roster and still the best scorer on the team by far...So it should be an indicative measure of exactly where we re with the guys you want to build around...Rose in a PnR situation next year will be a borderline all star..

But you are all missing Rose's talent...Rose is still trying to figure out his new role post knee surgery..He is trying to play slower and more methodical..He needs a good coach..Some one must have told him about the fouls can can draw and he made the adjustment the last few weeks and getting to the line..A better coach will work with his passing for next year...Dumb organization we support...We will lose Rose for nothing and he will star next year elsewhere, but that's par for the course isn't it...Triangle rules!!

No. Melo isnt. He is neither the best scorer and he is most certainly NOT the best defender. You are so lost in the past its a joke. Its been a few years since Melo has been good.

But hey... lets talk about YOUR Melo comments and see if stupid is as stupid does.
Melo's TEAM rankings:
True Shooting% 7th
WS/48 6th
EFG% 8th

Want to talk about defense at PF? (neither good, but Melo's worse. Easily)
Opposing PFs vs Melo: .542 EFG%
Opposing PFs vs KP: .520 EFG%

http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16NYK12.HTM

Holfresh you are talking out your ass. Melo is not a good player on this team and has not been a good player on his team. Sorry it pains you to see your $25mm man being outperformed by guys on rookie deals but he has been.

You are not being honest..You are an emotional mess...Who defends the 4 better than Melo???

Why are you even arguing about this??? You dissed KP and Willy who are both at the start of their Knicks careers but Melo is coming to the end of his. He's only going to continue to decline from here. I think it will be a slow decline but he will get worse nonetheless.

I can't for the life of me understand your focus on Melo rather than the future of the team. He's had a great career but he can't carry a team anymore and he's over 10 years older than our new core will be!!!

You have lost all credibility over the years..My suggestion is that you try honesty based on what you see to get some modicum of respect as a poster...You were a major supporter of MDA who was terribly ineffective here..You railed against Woodson to no end while he was the most successful coach in over a decade getting to back to back playoffs, then you tried to credit MDA for his success...Your blind support of Phil who is trying to win but you nonetheless push the idea that he is rebuilding after signing Noah, signing Lee on 4 year deals, and trading for Rose...KP and Willy gets destroyed nightly by average offensive players and you cry there is nothing to see here...Now you are on this Melo and Rose blame game kick, it just incredible...Come on man..

One thing I will say is that you are getting it wrong on the Phil is trying to rebuild aspect. Its not that Phil tried to rebuild. Its that Phil hedged and allowed himself to be in position to rebuild if things didn't work out.

He added Rose for spare parts, signed Lee & Noah to put together with Melo and KP. At the end of the day the players didn't get it done. Rose and Melo have played *their* games all season regardless of system. Rose has put up pretty much the same exact stat line as his last 3 years. Only a little more efficient(Doesn't go with the anti Tri agenda though). They are not capable of imposing their will on games anymore for a full 82 game season and playoffs. If the triangle somehow prevented Rose and Melo from playing their games then you would have more of a case.

We have 2 options. Trade everyone not named Rose and Melo for pure defensive players to make up the for the defensive laps. Though Noah, Lee, Lance, Holiday, KOQ, Baker were supposed to be that already. While KP was pretty solid defensively last yr in terms of rim protection. Then depend on Rose and Melo even more to carry the team offensively by taking even more shots while everyone else just focus on playing defense.

Or we look to transition into the development of KP and Willy and working through their growing pains. While looking to add players that fit their window to make a run.

You are right, he has absolutely hedged every year he has been here...But the hedge is part of the reason for lack of success and bringing lame coaches which he undermine running the triangle...And who are we hedging with, fringe NBA players...Another problem with Phil is that he points fingers when he fails..He was trying to hang it on Melo in the press and Rose to a lesser extent...He has created the toxic environment he told everyone he was here to clean up...

We have no choice but to rebuild at this point...Just don't tell me to build on sub-par defense because it pointless...No team wins playing awful defense with awful defenders run by awful coaches...But Phil has to go too...

Hedging every year was the smart way to go. There isn't an abundance of NBA talent ready and available in order for us to contend. If you haven't noticed the NBA product today is terrible. Then you follow that up with the fact that we had 1 premium draft pick in a 3 year time span.

Hedging was smart to what end???..Handing long term deals to guys like Noah and locking in failure??..N'Dour, Baker, Plumlee, Kuz, and Randall can be out of the league in two years...If you going to rebuild then rebuild...Everyone know the bench was suspect and couldn't win them...

Who are we signing with the cap space that Noah holds or Lee? Our main source of improvement will come from the draft and has been the case since 3 years ago. Cap space does not effect your ability to draft. Lee is also movable.

It's way too late to speculate..I wouldn't have traded JR, Shmup or Tim...But that's just me..I would let Chandler and Amare roll off..I would have kept Woodson...I would have kept Melo,JR, Shump, Tim and build on that...Water under the bridge...We need to rebuild..Asking to add players who plays defense is a bridge too far???

My goal has always been to watch competitive games...Just compete in season and maybe the second round of the playoffs...Just make it competitive and watchable, low fruit.....For three years now, we have mailed it in after January..It's brutal..Then Phil pointing fingers just insults my intelligence...Be a man and just accept responsibility..Everyone can see through the charade..

How would you have been able to build on that? Shumpert & Smith & Melo would be up for resigning. You would need to find a PG and big men as well within that time span. You only have 1 draft pick to work with.

At the time JR could have been got for less...Shump was optional since Tim was on the bench...We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill..I would have went after Aldridge...Don't tell me our only option was Phil's route..

Phil wanted guys on the bench who would accept his triangle...That's why he brought back all the scrubs from the 17 win team...Thats why we are stacked with euro players...Why is Sasha on the team...

We have a team where Melo at age 32 has to play an entire quarter because no one on the bench can be counted on for offense...That's a strategy Hornacek is faced with...That is a losing strategy...

Smith already took a pay cut twice. He isn't taking a 3rd pay cut with an exploding cap. Plus he is 31 today and will be 34 when his contract is up and already on the decline. You would have had to have done something with Jr within the last 2 years before his contract was up. Or it becomes a horrible investment.

Its not realistic to believe Aldridge is choosing to come to the Knicks over the Spurs. We signed Affalo, Ropez, DWill because Middleton, Butler, Gasol etc resigned with their teams. Affalo was what was left over. Same with Ropez.

Phil added what he could, based on lack of available assets and depleted talent pool. The only thing he could have done was trade future picks for upgrades in talent today.

If Phil stepped into an amazing situation and turned it to **** then I could see the anger. He stepped into a ****ty situation and failed. I'm not going to knock him for not being able to turn a ****ty situation into gold. If Phil quit today the next GM would be in a waaaaay better situation then when he took over. When does that ever happen.

JR signed a one year deal for 5 mil with Cleveland..He would have gladly accepted Affalo's 8 mil per..

Woodson took the team to the playoffs twice and third year was undercut after his GM got canned before the season..At that point, everyone knew his status was tenuous..Dolan was talking to Phil about taking over in December after the 54 win season...You are calling it a failing situation with you three big contracts rolling off??

54 wins and then it all got screwed up!!! "Break them up" cried the masses, all that winning!!!
You don't remember the playoffs that year do you?

BTW, Aldridge was not having any of Knicks needs which was at center. I hope you don't think Aldridge would have completed a roster so we'd be "Spurs like" do you?