CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

Well he certainly has failed to mold Melo into what he envisioned. Circus? Walsh traded a first rounder for cap space to sign... Amare Stoudemire. That was his plan. Circus? Isiah traded 2 unprotected picks for a player who's team was ready to pay him to retire from the sport. This has not been a circus, just not a good team.

The finger pointing and blame game was alive and well long before Phil got here.

Phil failed to rebuild/retool the roster around Melo. Considering Melo's performance Phil grossly overestimated what Melo had in the tank.

You said it best. Phil has backed into a rebuild and at the end of the day I am just fine with that, and I am fine with the young talent Phil brings in. I am good with seeing this through, mistakes aside. I dont need to make excuses for Phil. He's hasnt helped, but if Melo/Rose are off this roster and we have another good young building block I am great with the direction of the team, triangle or not.

I'll be happy to have another young player - hopefully a young stud on the roster.

The Triangle / coaching stuff concerns me though. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wonder if Phil has reflected that if Jerry Krause forced Phil to run a specific offense on his first coaching job, the vaunted Triangle never would've gotten a chance. I guess Phil is lucky that his boss put complete faith in his coaching abilities and gave him freedom to choose what he felt was the right system. You don't get that kind of boss very often.

Plenty of concerns with Phil! The bottom line is he has yet to succeed. The only thing he has NOT done is repeat the mistakes of the idiots (Isiah) we have had in the past. He has kept the roster flexible and has kept our picks. He's brought in some promising young players but thats it. Phil has done nothing impressive here except take KP despite the pressure to avoid an unknown Euro kid.

I do think when we move on from Melo you will start seeing more system basketball. I do not anticipate that making us better in the short term with so many young players, but I am OK with that. I do get your frustration with Phil, but I think its confused and exasperated by all the noise that follows this team. This franchise desperatly needs a stretch where it collects a sustainable core of talent. Stinking and drafting well will accomplish that. So long as we build that I am be patient with any BS along the way.

Everything is in alignment for the Knicks to stink and be in the lottery for the near future. The leader of the accidental tank pushing the triangle again with another reset sabotaging continuity again for year 4 should seal the deal.

I think this team will make some positive progress as they rebuild. It all depends on the luck of the draft and further development of our current young players. This will be a more natural process and they don't have a lot of options to get better.

Complaining that rebuilding will take time is one of the worst things to complain about. What choice do we have other than Lebron being miraculously traded to the Knicks! Who else could we possibly add that would guarantee success???

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

Well he certainly has failed to mold Melo into what he envisioned. Circus? Walsh traded a first rounder for cap space to sign... Amare Stoudemire. That was his plan. Circus? Isiah traded 2 unprotected picks for a player who's team was ready to pay him to retire from the sport. This has not been a circus, just not a good team.

The finger pointing and blame game was alive and well long before Phil got here.

Phil failed to rebuild/retool the roster around Melo. Considering Melo's performance Phil grossly overestimated what Melo had in the tank.

You said it best. Phil has backed into a rebuild and at the end of the day I am just fine with that, and I am fine with the young talent Phil brings in. I am good with seeing this through, mistakes aside. I dont need to make excuses for Phil. He's hasnt helped, but if Melo/Rose are off this roster and we have another good young building block I am great with the direction of the team, triangle or not.

I'll be happy to have another young player - hopefully a young stud on the roster.

The Triangle / coaching stuff concerns me though. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wonder if Phil has reflected that if Jerry Krause forced Phil to run a specific offense on his first coaching job, the vaunted Triangle never would've gotten a chance. I guess Phil is lucky that his boss put complete faith in his coaching abilities and gave him freedom to choose what he felt was the right system. You don't get that kind of boss very often.

Plenty of concerns with Phil! The bottom line is he has yet to succeed. The only thing he has NOT done is repeat the mistakes of the idiots (Isiah) we have had in the past. He has kept the roster flexible and has kept our picks. He's brought in some promising young players but thats it. Phil has done nothing impressive here except take KP despite the pressure to avoid an unknown Euro kid.

I do think when we move on from Melo you will start seeing more system basketball. I do not anticipate that making us better in the short term with so many young players, but I am OK with that. I do get your frustration with Phil, but I think its confused and exasperated by all the noise that follows this team. This franchise desperatly needs a stretch where it collects a sustainable core of talent. Stinking and drafting well will accomplish that. So long as we build that I am be patient with any BS along the way.

Everything is in alignment for the Knicks to stink and be in the lottery for the near future. The leader of the accidental tank pushing the triangle again with another reset sabotaging continuity again for year 4 should seal the deal.

I think this team will make some positive progress as they rebuild. It all depends on the luck of the draft and further development of our current young players. This will be a more natural process and they don't have a lot of options to get better.

Complaining that rebuilding will take time is one of the worst things to complain about. What choice do we have other than Lebron being miraculously traded to the Knicks! Who else could we possibly add that would guarantee success???

holfresh wrote:Just a question...Phil knows the triangle will die on the vine as soon as he leaves..So why doesn't he look at the situation, get a good coach with a system and have the coach establish a foundation for the organization going forward?

2 Follow up questions to your question.
1) How do you know that Phil knows that?
2) Since when can Phil able see into the future? Man probably can't see 10 feet in front of him without his glasses.

holfresh wrote:

TPercy wrote:

holfresh wrote:Just a question...Phil knows the triangle will die on the vine as soon as he leaves..So why doesn't he look at the situation, get a good coach with a system and have the coach establish a foundation for the organization going forward?

2 Follow up questions to your question.
1) How do you know that Phil knows that?
2) Since when can Phil able see into the future? Man probably can't see 10 feet in front of him without his glasses.

In his first press conference three years ago, he said "the triangle is much maligned in today's NBA"..Kind of an admission, no?

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

+ 1,000

Uptown wrote:Speaking of commitment, why did it take 3 years for phil to fully commit to the Triangle? The frustrating part in all of this is the waffling back and forth. Why hire Hornacek if the triangle is what you wanted to run all along? If he would have just hired Rambis from the get go, at least the system, rightly or wrongly, would have been in place from day one and there would be less confusion about player roles.

As a coach, I can tell you, one of the worse things you can do is commit to one style of play, then switch to another in the same season. You confuse the players and they lose confidence in you because you are waffling. This is a joke on levels!!!

Phil was not a Triangle coach when he started. Krause already had Tex on the coaching staff. Phil coached the Bulls before he fully learned the Triangle and let Tex work with the team on offense. It's the same for many coaches when it comes to defense. This is being overstated.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Uptown wrote:Speaking of commitment, why did it take 3 years for phil to fully commit to the Triangle? The frustrating part in all of this is the waffling back and forth. Why hire Hornacek if the triangle is what you wanted to run all along? If he would have just hired Rambis from the get go, at least the system, rightly or wrongly, would have been in place from day one and there would be less confusion about player roles.

As a coach, I can tell you, one of the worse things you can do is commit to one style of play, then switch to another in the same season. You confuse the players and they lose confidence in you because you are waffling. This is a joke on levels!!!

Phil was not a Triangle coach when he started. Krause already had Tex on the coaching staff. Phil coached the Bulls before he fully learned the Triangle and let Tex work with the team on offense. It's the same for many coaches when it comes to defense. This is being overstated.

I don't think so. There has been waffling on the system with every coach except for Rambis. When you turn over the roster annually and go back and forth on style of play there is no continuity. Also, it takes awhile for guys to learn the triangle. It is not a system that works with annual roster resets.

It would be great if Phil had a great roster and didn't need to make changes but he's wanted to try and improve. Now it seems like he's done trying to make a Vet group based around Melo and he can just fully commit to the Triangle and build in that direction.

Phil clearly has struggled to establish consistency but at this point he's looking at a younger roster now that he can take a longer view in how he looks to develop. With that in mind he can commit to not only the Triangle but to Jeff and the staff.

Jeff seems to be totally receptive to Phil's guidance and instruction unlike Fisher. That does make a difference. If Jeff is now feeling he wants to go more towards the Triangle then there is no more confusion.

Phil and Rambis can be Jeff's Tex Winter. Rambis lacks the connection with the players but knows the Triangle so this is very similar to how Phil started in Chicago:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:Speaking of commitment, why did it take 3 years for phil to fully commit to the Triangle? The frustrating part in all of this is the waffling back and forth. Why hire Hornacek if the triangle is what you wanted to run all along? If he would have just hired Rambis from the get go, at least the system, rightly or wrongly, would have been in place from day one and there would be less confusion about player roles.

As a coach, I can tell you, one of the worse things you can do is commit to one style of play, then switch to another in the same season. You confuse the players and they lose confidence in you because you are waffling. This is a joke on levels!!!

Its waffling? Hornacek was very open about simplifying the offense and pushing tempo because of the personel. We certainly saw that with the 2nd unit for a long stretch. Eventually we became too easy to defend and guys fell into bad/old habits of one on one play and massive ball stopping. They had games early on where they really moved the ball well, triangle or not. Ultimatly they hit a wall and didnt fight through it, they caved. We can assign blame lots of places or everywhere. However when your bad like this you have look at everything starting with what is one the floor, what is working and what isnt. Its time for a young direction with players commited to both ends and moving the ball. If it takes move of this roster churning that Phil is doing to find the right mix honestly thats fine with me. Until he finds them we will continue to struggle and another draft or like KP/Willy/Grant and a roster full guys on the same page nobody will care about how poorly Phil handed the end of the Melo regime. They will be focused on how to get Ball/KP/Willy/KlayClone to the finals.

Honestly, it was time for a youth movement long ago...phils biggest mistake was re-signing Melo and thinking he could half rebuild and half build a competitive team to compete in the east. Melo should have never been re-signed and to compound that mistake, he signs Noah and Lee to extended contracts hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.

Hopefully, the organization is aware that the youth movement is and should be in full effect its just a shame it took this long. Wasted years to be honest. As far as the triangle is concerned, it just seemed like phil is again half committed to it. It seems like he allowed Hornacek to run it how he sees fit, which was part time, now he wants to step in and fully commit to it now? Didn't phil just have a triangle training canmp over the summer, only to allow Hornacek to tinker with it and now we are going back to it again? I can see how players can a bit a confused.

With that said, I hope this organization fully commits to rebuild from here on out...

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Uptown wrote:Speaking of commitment, why did it take 3 years for phil to fully commit to the Triangle? The frustrating part in all of this is the waffling back and forth. Why hire Hornacek if the triangle is what you wanted to run all along? If he would have just hired Rambis from the get go, at least the system, rightly or wrongly, would have been in place from day one and there would be less confusion about player roles.

As a coach, I can tell you, one of the worse things you can do is commit to one style of play, then switch to another in the same season. You confuse the players and they lose confidence in you because you are waffling. This is a joke on levels!!!

Phil was not a Triangle coach when he started. Krause already had Tex on the coaching staff. Phil coached the Bulls before he fully learned the Triangle and let Tex work with the team on offense. It's the same for many coaches when it comes to defense. This is being overstated.

I don't think so. There has been waffling on the system with every coach except for Rambis. When you turn over the roster annually and go back and forth on style of play there is no continuity. Also, it takes awhile for guys to learn the triangle. It is not a system that works with annual roster resets.

^^^^
This...I much as I loathe this triangle nonsense, I could respect phil more if he stuck to his guns and brought in a coach who was just as committed as he is to run the damn triangle, 100%. Instead, we got a triangle training camp in the summer, then Hornacek comes in and is allowed to implement some of his stuff which went against the triangle camp. Now, we are back to the triangle?

Not only that, we continue to turn over the roster knowing it takes a while to learn this system...The guys he brought in, Rose in particular, is an anti triangle guy. That move seemed to tell anyone with sense that maybe weren't going to commit to the trianngle 100%. Especially when you hire a coach who in his previous job ran a system that emphasized running, floor-spacing, 3's etc. Some of Phils moves say anti-triangle but his words say something different.

holfresh wrote:

TPercy wrote:

holfresh wrote:

TPercy wrote:

holfresh wrote:Just a question...Phil knows the triangle will die on the vine as soon as he leaves..So why doesn't he look at the situation, get a good coach with a system and have the coach establish a foundation for the organization going forward?

2 Follow up questions to your question.
1) How do you know that Phil knows that?
2) Since when can Phil able see into the future? Man probably can't see 10 feet in front of him without his glasses.

In his first press conference three years ago, he said "the triangle is much maligned in today's NBA"..Kind of an admission, no?

Its an admission that players in the NBA aren't exactly found of it. As he said in that press conference, he wants the knicks to play system basketball. So if the triangle, much like any other system, pans out in NY..why would it be logical for the next guy to strip it down?

It's not only the player but other coaches doesn't than to run it..

Every coach so far has tried to augment the system to implement his own strategy..He fired the last guy and Hornacek was hire becuase it's known that he would capitulate..

Why, do you think there are coaches out there dying to run it??..How come Phil can't find them?