Numbers since went all in on Triangle.

KP 17.9 ppg 25.5% Usage Rate (went up) 43% Shooting 108 O rating (went up from previous month)
Rose 18.1 ppg 24% Usage Rate (went down by 2 points) 48% Shooting (went up) 4.1 apg 112 O Rating (Rose's O rating has gone up in the Triangle)
Melo 17,7 ppg 24% Usage Rate (down by 8 points from previous month) 38.5% shooting 102 O Rating

KP, Rose have both seen their offense rating and numbers improve in this month since we went all in to the Triangle. Melo on the other hand is the one that has seen his numbers shift downward and struggle the most. His usage rate and field goal percentage are much lower.

At this point, a little less than a mont into the all in Triangle era with this team, it's clear KP and Rose can do what they want in the Triangle, but Melo is suffering big time. I'm actually shocked at this, because Melo should in theory fit in best of the 3 of them. He has all the same skills Kobe has (maybe not to the same degree) and I'm surprised he is struggling so bad with it.

Melo is our tank commander right now. Numbers don't lie. Go look at March's Melo's numbers, people.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01/splits/2017

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

Gee, lets fire Phil. IN contrast to what? A mystical ideal of a super ex player with an MIT degree in economics and Billy Bean sensibilities yet a super scout eye for talent?
Lets get a new owner! IN contrast to one who will say the right things but have a high debt to service and might not want to spend money?
Lets trash the triangle! In contrast to Iso ball? Or Pop's ball movement and off the ball movement disciplines?
Lets bash KP? In contrast to the notion that what I see is all he will be at 21 years old?
Willy can't defend! Incontrast to a second round pick who only played 165 minutes last season and was on the bench to start this one?
Rambis is Evil! IN contrast to his rings as a player, assistant coach or assistant GM? We only count his Minny tenure?

Great to take like 10 players in each draft and say you like them, then say "Told you so" down the road. Fact is GM's get one crack at one player and don't have the benefit of hindsight or portal to the future.

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

Well he certainly has failed to mold Melo into what he envisioned. Circus? Walsh traded a first rounder for cap space to sign... Amare Stoudemire. That was his plan. Circus? Isiah traded 2 unprotected picks for a player who's team was ready to pay him to retire from the sport. This has not been a circus, just not a good team.

The finger pointing and blame game was alive and well long before Phil got here.

Phil failed to rebuild/retool the roster around Melo. Considering Melo's performance Phil grossly overestimated what Melo had in the tank.

You said it best. Phil has backed into a rebuild and at the end of the day I am just fine with that, and I am fine with the young talent Phil brings in. I am good with seeing this through, mistakes aside. I dont need to make excuses for Phil. He's hasnt helped, but if Melo/Rose are off this roster and we have another good young building block I am great with the direction of the team, triangle or not.

I'll be happy to have another young player - hopefully a young stud on the roster.

The Triangle / coaching stuff concerns me though. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wonder if Phil has reflected that if Jerry Krause forced Phil to run a specific offense on his first coaching job, the vaunted Triangle never would've gotten a chance. I guess Phil is lucky that his boss put complete faith in his coaching abilities and gave him freedom to choose what he felt was the right system. You don't get that kind of boss very often.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

Well he certainly has failed to mold Melo into what he envisioned. Circus? Walsh traded a first rounder for cap space to sign... Amare Stoudemire. That was his plan. Circus? Isiah traded 2 unprotected picks for a player who's team was ready to pay him to retire from the sport. This has not been a circus, just not a good team.

The finger pointing and blame game was alive and well long before Phil got here.

Phil failed to rebuild/retool the roster around Melo. Considering Melo's performance Phil grossly overestimated what Melo had in the tank.

You said it best. Phil has backed into a rebuild and at the end of the day I am just fine with that, and I am fine with the young talent Phil brings in. I am good with seeing this through, mistakes aside. I dont need to make excuses for Phil. He's hasnt helped, but if Melo/Rose are off this roster and we have another good young building block I am great with the direction of the team, triangle or not.

I'll be happy to have another young player - hopefully a young stud on the roster.

The Triangle / coaching stuff concerns me though. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wonder if Phil has reflected that if Jerry Krause forced Phil to run a specific offense on his first coaching job, the vaunted Triangle never would've gotten a chance. I guess Phil is lucky that his boss put complete faith in his coaching abilities and gave him freedom to choose what he felt was the right system. You don't get that kind of boss very often.

I do think when we move on from Melo you will start seeing more system basketball. I do not anticipate that making us better in the short term with so many young players, but I am OK with that. I do get your frustration with Phil, but I think its confused and exasperated by all the noise that follows this team. This franchise desperatly needs a stretch where it collects a sustainable core of talent. Stinking and drafting well will accomplish that. So long as we build that I am be patient with any BS along the way.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

Well he certainly has failed to mold Melo into what he envisioned. Circus? Walsh traded a first rounder for cap space to sign... Amare Stoudemire. That was his plan. Circus? Isiah traded 2 unprotected picks for a player who's team was ready to pay him to retire from the sport. This has not been a circus, just not a good team.

The finger pointing and blame game was alive and well long before Phil got here.

Phil failed to rebuild/retool the roster around Melo. Considering Melo's performance Phil grossly overestimated what Melo had in the tank.

You said it best. Phil has backed into a rebuild and at the end of the day I am just fine with that, and I am fine with the young talent Phil brings in. I am good with seeing this through, mistakes aside. I dont need to make excuses for Phil. He's hasnt helped, but if Melo/Rose are off this roster and we have another good young building block I am great with the direction of the team, triangle or not.

I'll be happy to have another young player - hopefully a young stud on the roster.

The Triangle / coaching stuff concerns me though. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wonder if Phil has reflected that if Jerry Krause forced Phil to run a specific offense on his first coaching job, the vaunted Triangle never would've gotten a chance. I guess Phil is lucky that his boss put complete faith in his coaching abilities and gave him freedom to choose what he felt was the right system. You don't get that kind of boss very often.

Plenty of concerns with Phil! The bottom line is he has yet to succeed. The only thing he has NOT done is repeat the mistakes of the idiots (Isiah) we have had in the past. He has kept the roster flexible and has kept our picks. He's brought in some promising young players but thats it. Phil has done nothing impressive here except take KP despite the pressure to avoid an unknown Euro kid.

I do think when we move on from Melo you will start seeing more system basketball. I do not anticipate that making us better in the short term with so many young players, but I am OK with that. I do get your frustration with Phil, but I think its confused and exasperated by all the noise that follows this team. This franchise desperatly needs a stretch where it collects a sustainable core of talent. Stinking and drafting well will accomplish that. So long as we build that I am be patient with any BS along the way.

I agree about needing to acquire a stock of young blue chips in the lotto. Hell, most of us have agreed they had to do that since about 2002 when they made the disastrous Camby and Nene for McDyess trade.

But it's worth noting again that the earliest first rounder Phil could trade has always been 2018. His hands were tied by previous regimes. Maybe he would've built through the draft starting in 2014... Or maybe not. We can't really say. I'll give him credit for not trading the 2018 pick if he makes it through next season without trading it. Trading picks that are far out has never been as enticing to other teams as being able to trade an immediate pick. So when Phil has that option starting next year and he still doesn't do it, then I'll give him a lot of credit.

And there assuredly is noise from the NYC media trying to sell papers. But there is also plenty of national level noise. The Knicks get murdered on national tv by national announcers every time they go on. So it's not just some NYC hallucination. People around the league are questioning all this too. Especially the coaching situation and the triangle situation.

Here's a national article from today -

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/yourmandevine/status/844948334586531841

As for trading the picks there are other options, like what NJ did. You can always switch. He could have moved KP for a package that would have fetched a high end veteran or two. Again... no gold medals for this, but there were options.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Think Phil and Jeff ever talked about this when Jeff got hired or was interviewing?
Think Jeff, who lost twice as a member of the Jazz to the Bulls in the finals understands how it works?
Think anyone who took time to read Phils books to understand also knows that phil had teams in the middle of run's that did not come together and understands the problem with buy in?
Really, Rambis is now the Knicks "Dick Chaney" or Steve Bannon?
Funny, last year there was a debate about the Phils bulls who won 72 games vs GSW. Nobody said "gee, bulls running that triangle and would be destroyed....."

What is the triangle? Two handed set shots? 4 corners stall game? no, its ball movement and off the ball movement. All teams do this, but this one has a name and a blame.

exactly... its incredible what this has been turned into. So silly. But people need blame and the Knicks stink. Some love Melo, some love the young guys, some hate Phil... so when it comes to assigning blame the triangle is a nice common theme.

Look, it's undisputed that Phil was a great coach. And could coach the Triangle very very well.

But Phil is not coaching here. He's brought in two different young coaches who showed promise for different reasons. And it seemed both of them had a preference to move away from the Triangle and install some of their own stuff. Both times Phil stepped in and said "nope, we're running a pure Triangle." This has happened each of the past two seasons.

That doesn't seem like undercutting the coach to you? There have been articles mentioning that the players lost trust in Hornacek for going back to the Triangle. Obviously the young guys, many of them this is their first NBA experience, they're clinging to their roster spot with their lives, they aren't gonna say jack. The vets seem confused and have lost faith. Is it the wrong vets? Are they all problem children? Afflalo doesn't have a rep for being a bad guy, but here he was villified for expressing confusion over his role.

You guys can point to Phil's coaching the Triangle all you want. That's fine. But that's not his role here - his role is to build a roster and install a chain of command and put his coaches and players in a situation to succeed. Obviously he's been limited on the draft pick side and he's done well to bring in a decent bench of young guys who play hard, but in all other aspects - trades, major signings, hiring coaches and helping them thrive, installing a culture of trust with clear responsibilities... I mean that stuff has been a mess. And that's the biggest part for me - I was excited when we got Phil because I thought the circus atmosphere was ending.

Donnie Walsh made plenty of mistakes, but I liked the feeling that at least it wasn't a circus and he had a clear plan and tried to execute it. Phil has gone back and forth on the plan a few times, understandable. But the culture here has been a mess - and a lot of that is on him, specifically the relationships he's had with coaches he has hand picked and then put in untenable positions. Hornacek is now in the position of having to teach a system he didn't choose and he doesn't know that well. Maybe he can succeed - I like him and he seems like a smart basketball mind... but the situation he has been placed in is not ideal.

I wish you guys could let go of this narrative that the people who are frustrated are trying to find a scape goat or something. Man, PHIL HIMSELF has blamed scapegoats the past three years - first it was JR/Shump, then Fisher wasn't answering his texts, now its Melo not moving the ball. Phil has created this atmosphere of finger-pointing and blame-games. That's one of the most disappointing aspects of his tenure to me. You could live with the basketball moves - everyone makes mistakes, he had limited moves on his chess board, etc - but the atmosphere of blame and distrust is just toxic and it has to end. DRose went AWOL this year and thought about retiring from the game until his mom smacked some sense into him. That is not a sign of a healthy team atmosphere. As Team President who has signed or brought in every single player and coach on the team - the buck stops with Phil to foster a healthy environment. Or at least I hoped that would be the case. It really hasn't been.

Well he certainly has failed to mold Melo into what he envisioned. Circus? Walsh traded a first rounder for cap space to sign... Amare Stoudemire. That was his plan. Circus? Isiah traded 2 unprotected picks for a player who's team was ready to pay him to retire from the sport. This has not been a circus, just not a good team.

The finger pointing and blame game was alive and well long before Phil got here.

Phil failed to rebuild/retool the roster around Melo. Considering Melo's performance Phil grossly overestimated what Melo had in the tank.

You said it best. Phil has backed into a rebuild and at the end of the day I am just fine with that, and I am fine with the young talent Phil brings in. I am good with seeing this through, mistakes aside. I dont need to make excuses for Phil. He's hasnt helped, but if Melo/Rose are off this roster and we have another good young building block I am great with the direction of the team, triangle or not.

I'll be happy to have another young player - hopefully a young stud on the roster.

The Triangle / coaching stuff concerns me though. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wonder if Phil has reflected that if Jerry Krause forced Phil to run a specific offense on his first coaching job, the vaunted Triangle never would've gotten a chance. I guess Phil is lucky that his boss put complete faith in his coaching abilities and gave him freedom to choose what he felt was the right system. You don't get that kind of boss very often.

Plenty of concerns with Phil! The bottom line is he has yet to succeed. The only thing he has NOT done is repeat the mistakes of the idiots (Isiah) we have had in the past. He has kept the roster flexible and has kept our picks. He's brought in some promising young players but thats it. Phil has done nothing impressive here except take KP despite the pressure to avoid an unknown Euro kid.

I do think when we move on from Melo you will start seeing more system basketball. I do not anticipate that making us better in the short term with so many young players, but I am OK with that. I do get your frustration with Phil, but I think its confused and exasperated by all the noise that follows this team. This franchise desperatly needs a stretch where it collects a sustainable core of talent. Stinking and drafting well will accomplish that. So long as we build that I am be patient with any BS along the way.