Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Can't wait to bump this thread next year so we can compare to whoever Shaq is blaming for the Triangle not working.

why wait?
Does it matter why a team succeeds or why a team fails?
Is "Told you so" that important?

Actually, for me team success is more important and that's why I'm upset about this continual mess.

I agree!!!!
Triangle and Phil seemed to be taking the brunt of fans frustrations and media as well.
Nalod is a here and now kind of guy who really does not lament on the past. Or, at least I strive for that.
I do believe that good teams move well without the ball and the ball must move to get them. They have good players that are able, and are committed to that task.
MDA failed in NY, failed to get Lakers (not healthy to do it) commited, and was seen as an ineffective system. Yet with Rockets, he has them contending. Right personal and they are committed!
This is simple and yet oh so difficult to accomplish. Saying "We need more athletes, more rookies, more what ever" is never just that.

Nalod fully supports what Phil is trying to do because its effective. Its not easy, and I'd rather keep trying then promote some unseen hope that a young GM has some mystical alternative. Thats abstract.
Am i delusional? No, I see the teams record.
Do I prescribe to the quick fix? Never.

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Can't wait to bump this thread next year so we can compare to whoever Shaq is blaming for the Triangle not working.

why wait?
Does it matter why a team succeeds or why a team fails?
Is "Told you so" that important?

Actually, for me team success is more important and that's why I'm upset about this continual mess.

I agree!!!!
Triangle and Phil seemed to be taking the brunt of fans frustrations and media as well.
Nalod is a here and now kind of guy who really does not lament on the past. Or, at least I strive for that.
I do believe that good teams move well without the ball and the ball must move to get them. They have good players that are able, and are committed to that task.
MDA failed in NY, failed to get Lakers (not healthy to do it) commited, and was seen as an ineffective system. Yet with Rockets, he has them contending. Right personal and they are committed!
This is simple and yet oh so difficult to accomplish. Saying "We need more athletes, more rookies, more what ever" is never just that.

Nalod fully supports what Phil is trying to do because its effective. Its not easy, and I'd rather keep trying then promote some unseen hope that a young GM has some mystical alternative. Thats abstract.
Am i delusional? No, I see the teams record.
Do I prescribe to the quick fix? Never.

Can you explain what Phil is trying to do? Or maybe explain his approach to doing it for the first three years? It appears that the Knicks have ended up here while trying to win and now calling it a full rebuild like that was the plan from the start.

Year one audition and tear it down. Draft a stud.
Year two. play the stud, grow a back court so Jose don't start.
YEar Three, on paper talent is there. KP is legit, Rose former MVP shaking the last of rust out and give himself to the system, Melo sacrifice and move the ball. See it thru and get bench together for late season run. Also, Triangle takes 50 games to get once trust exists. It didn't happen. Maybe PHil is not insistent enough, trying to win now and evolve the team on the fly.

Thats my take. To me there was not much left on the table ridding SHump and JR, Flu Tyson and Felton. THey had to go. RoPez was a good signing. Clearanthoy was a stretch and the kid got shot in the leg. Three years, one 1st rounder. I think Melo has tried. I don't begrudge him. I think Rose also tried, but also has not been honest about his commitment.
Plan is fluid, not for public consumption and we had very little assets (picks or prospects) to work with either on court or to trade.

Has PHil done a good job? No. Not sure anyone says that. I think he has done the right thing mostly (no GM perfect) and some things have just not worked out. Does that mean we fire him? Not in my opinion.
The franchise is stronger than it was 3 years ago even if the wins and losses are not apparent at this time. In fact, I think Rose was a stretch and a good low risk attempt. It was a quality decision. Somtimes good decisons don't work out. Nalod has bought blue chips stocks and failed, taken flyers on some companies and failed, then others succeeded wildly!!! I call making good decisons "quality at bats" and if I put myself in a position to do so, and frequently, then my long term decisions will have better results. If I don't make them, I never succeed. If I bet the ranch, I risk much with a concentrated position.
Knicks did this often with Isiah. Mcdyess was a concentrated decision. Marbury, eddy, Amare, and Melo. Melo was not a bad decision, but it was not a great one either. I'd say neither team really profited much from the trade.

Maybe its all about expectations. This year was a failure but we have our pick.

He's been getting young talent the entire time and now he's setup well to clear out more vets and restock with better younger talent. It's an imperfect path and it's not smooth but what we're the options working in MSG? This is likely the only way he could sneak into a rebuild.

nyknickzingis wrote:

TPercy wrote:Some great points made here. My main concern that others have voiced is that if we keep flipping the roster every year,then how do the guys build the necessary chemistry together to make the triangle functional?
In addition, Phil's contract is up in two years, so what happens to the triangle then?
If the new guy comes along who is to say he keeps it?
Let's say we get a pick who is incredibly talented but may not be triangle oriented?

This is not me bashing the system, I like multiple plays the triangle has to offer, but is it a plausible system moving forward...

I don't think the team is ever running the Triangle exclusively. We'll be running Triangle along with the other stuff Hornachek brings. The reason the team is running the Triangle now (in my opinion) is that they want to be ahead of the curve NEXT season. They don't want to waste training camp and alot of practice on the Triangle next season. I think the offense will be what it is, the Triangle when they have time otherwise quick secondary breaks/early offense as well as pick and roll.

What we need to remember is Willy, KP, Thomas, Noah, O'Quinn, Kuz, Lee, Holiday, Baker, Randle all eiter will be back or are under contract so likely have a great chance many of them are back. In which case, having the Triangle experience now gives them an edge heading into next season.

If Phil wanted Tri exclusive he would have hired Rambis. He hired Horny because Horny will mix in other aspects as well as modernize the Triangle.

As for after Phil, I think it depends on the success the team has with the Triangle in KP's and other young player's development. If the young players get better and better in it, if we become a Spurs like organization that can execute offense well regardless, then I think it sticks. If not, there will be a change. However I don't mind we are trying to go international and more Spurs like. I just hope Phil goes all in now and moves Melo, and doesn't bring in players like Rose. I hope everyone learned their lesson. The Spurs are who they are because of also the players they pick. No ball stoppers. No point guards who are thinking about free agency ahead of the team. Phil has to find a way to get that culture going. He hasn't done enough. He's got to fully invest into his belief in this system with the talent he has. Some talent just can not transform. For instance the Spurs would never sign Melo to a NTC and make him believe he would be their Jordan. The Spurs are an offense clinic. That's what you can do with talent like Willy, KP, whomever we continue to draft. These players can become players that are outstanding at just executing. However Phil has to stop with the vets transforming belief. Sure if he was coaching maybe he could get them to adapt, buy in etc. He has the rings and coaching greatness. You can't expect Fisher, Hornachek or anyone like that to come in and get these vets to transform. They don't have the proven accolades of Phil nor the coaching greatness. Make it simple. Draft talent to play and develop in the system (Like we did with KP/Willy). Get younger players in free agency who will also adjust and adapt. Go all in, like the Spurs have.

nixluva wrote:Once again the Triangle has been in use for longer than most of us have been alive! High School and College teams still use it. It's one of the deepest and most well formed systems. It's not the only way to play. It's just a way to play Team Ball. In the end it's not about the Triangle. IT'S ABOUT THE TALENT.

Phil is most familiar with the Triangle and that actually will help him in evaluating players and in the end that's a good thing because the more unselfish, the smarter and more skilled the player, the better they'll be in the Triangle and for this team. Phil didn't win Titles with dumb teams.

Which college teams?