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Shaq blames Melo, Rose and Knicks players not Triangle
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nixluva
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3/21/2017  5:37 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Who cares anyway...Organization won't recover from this for a long time...We will be a lottery team for the next few years...So we need to acquire talent...Hope we find a qualified GM to do the job...

And you accused me of being childish? The organization can recover quite well from not having Melo or Rose for that matter. They no longer play winning basketball. They're net negative players and they kill team play. These are the facts.


You are a child at times..You can't see beyond Melo Rose and Phil...

I talk about Melo and Rose because they quite literally don't play winning basketball. If you could make the case that they do play winning basketball I'd love to see it. They have personal production but it's all empty from a team perspective.

Both players LITERALLY made the playoffs every year of their life until Phil came along. Search a little deeper.

I can tell you that you are living in the past. I believed they were still capable but now I see how wrong I was. Melo and Rose are not winning players anymore. They can both still score but they simply don't do enough of the things that lead to wins.

They don't defend and they don't help the team function on a higher level. The team is just marginally better when they're off the court. If we had more well rounded lead players in their place the team would be better off. I want 2 Way players that buy into team play and defense.

I'm not the one who traded for Rose. Or sign Melo to a 5-yr deal with a NTC. If they weren't winning players, despite the games they had won... why'd Phil build around them?

Melo could play better TEAM BALL but chooses not to. The same goes for Rose. Neither guy is making the effort to be team leaders in playing TEAM BALL. Their ball movement and execution of the offense SUCKS. All they do is score individually but they KILL the team flow on both ends. It's LAZY basketball. They lack the determination and desire to dedicate themselves to team ball. If they did those things it would make a huge difference but they simply don't want to do it. Thus they are no longer Winning players.

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holfresh
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3/21/2017  5:41 PM
Nalod wrote:I think we have had this conversation many times.
PHil is not coaching the thunder, or the knicks either.

So none of you agenda guys blame the players, its all about Phil?
Did we not run hybrid systems this year? Don't the ball have to move? Winning teams move the ball.

Winning coaches coach defense, winning GMs allow their coaches to run the team, winning players play defense...If we are running the triangle, Rambis is coaching it because he understands it better than Hornacek...It's dysfunctional, no way around it...

crzymdups
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3/21/2017  5:41 PM
Nalod wrote:I think we have had this conversation many times.
PHil is not coaching the thunder, or the knicks either.

So none of you agenda guys blame the players, its all about Phil?
Did we not run hybrid systems this year? Don't the ball have to move? Winning teams move the ball.

I think the coaching was not good this season. Why did Fisher have Melo averaging career highs in assist last year and it vanished this year?

Brandon Jennings still leads the team in overall assists and he was let go a month ago. Jennings got here and was moving the ball great in November and December. Why'd it suddenly stop?

DRose is averaging a career low assist percentage. Did he just decide he was gonna come here and stop passing.

I think the coaching has a lot to answer for this season.

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crzymdups
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3/21/2017  5:45 PM
nixluva wrote:
Melo could play better TEAM BALL but chooses not to. The same goes for Rose. Neither guy is making the effort to be team leaders in playing TEAM BALL. Their ball movement and execution of the offense SUCKS. All they do is score individually but they KILL the team flow on both ends. It's LAZY basketball. They lack the determination and desire to dedicate themselves to team ball. If they did those things it would make a huge difference but they simply don't want to do it. Thus they are no longer Winning players.

Why is Rose averaging a career low assist percentage? He just decided he was gonna pass less here?

Why is Melo's assist percentage lower than it's been in years? He just suddenly decided he was gonna pass less?

I think Melo and Rose started going one on one because the coach was in over his head and had no idea how to implement the Triangle.

The sounds a lot more likely than Rose and Melo just decide they're gonna stop passing... for what reason would they do that? Please give me a reason.

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holfresh
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3/21/2017  5:46 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Who cares anyway...Organization won't recover from this for a long time...We will be a lottery team for the next few years...So we need to acquire talent...Hope we find a qualified GM to do the job...

And you accused me of being childish? The organization can recover quite well from not having Melo or Rose for that matter. They no longer play winning basketball. They're net negative players and they kill team play. These are the facts.


You are a child at times..You can't see beyond Melo Rose and Phil...

I talk about Melo and Rose because they quite literally don't play winning basketball. If you could make the case that they do play winning basketball I'd love to see it. They have personal production but it's all empty from a team perspective.

Both players LITERALLY made the playoffs every year of their life until Phil came along. Search a little deeper.

I can tell you that you are living in the past. I believed they were still capable but now I see how wrong I was. Melo and Rose are not winning players anymore. They can both still score but they simply don't do enough of the things that lead to wins.

They don't defend and they don't help the team function on a higher level. The team is just marginally better when they're off the court. If we had more well rounded lead players in their place the team would be better off. I want 2 Way players that buy into team play and defense.


KP and Willy can't defend their positions either but you don't mind that...Kuz can't defend..Melo defends 4s better than KP...AHH what's the point..

I bet you KP and Willy defend much better when we replace Melo and Rose with better defenders!

So subtract Melo and Rose and the bigs of this league like Jordan, Griffin, Joric, Towns, AD, Freak, Harris, Lopez, KLove won't have monster./career nights...OK...

HofstraBBall
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3/21/2017  5:50 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Lots of quotes from Shaq

Best bit was this

“If you look at how the second team runs the triangle, guys who don’t have a lot of experience in the game and a lot of habits, they ran a lot of it late in the fourth quarter and got a couple of backdoor plays,’’ O’Neal said. “It definitely does work. Look at the guys, when Phil put this team together, I was liking it: Porzingis, Carmelo, Rose, [Joakim] Noah. I said, ‘OK, it’s going to work if they embrace the triangle. I like it.’ But again, the ball can never stop

Isn't he saying goes that if we start our second unit, instead of having them.play other teams seconds using its, they would play better? Perhaps he has not seen the games where our second unit lost leads or put games out of reach.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
nixluva
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3/21/2017  6:19 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Melo could play better TEAM BALL but chooses not to. The same goes for Rose. Neither guy is making the effort to be team leaders in playing TEAM BALL. Their ball movement and execution of the offense SUCKS. All they do is score individually but they KILL the team flow on both ends. It's LAZY basketball. They lack the determination and desire to dedicate themselves to team ball. If they did those things it would make a huge difference but they simply don't want to do it. Thus they are no longer Winning players.

Why is Rose averaging a career low assist percentage? He just decided he was gonna pass less here?

Why is Melo's assist percentage lower than it's been in years? He just suddenly decided he was gonna pass less?

I think Melo and Rose started going one on one because the coach was in over his head and had no idea how to implement the Triangle.

The sounds a lot more likely than Rose and Melo just decide they're gonna stop passing... for what reason would they do that? Please give me a reason.

This is NONSENSE!!! The younger players have no problem passing even tho they mostly have less talent and experience. There's no sense to your point if you have Vets who have loads of experience that should know how to play Winning ball and how to pass and defend by now!!! Don't make excuses for them. High school and College kids run Triangle! There's no excuse for Melo who has been in the Triangle long enough and has played in all manner of different offenses over his career! NO EXCUSES FOR THESE GUYS!!!

nixluva
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3/21/2017  6:24 PM
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Who cares anyway...Organization won't recover from this for a long time...We will be a lottery team for the next few years...So we need to acquire talent...Hope we find a qualified GM to do the job...

And you accused me of being childish? The organization can recover quite well from not having Melo or Rose for that matter. They no longer play winning basketball. They're net negative players and they kill team play. These are the facts.


You are a child at times..You can't see beyond Melo Rose and Phil...

I talk about Melo and Rose because they quite literally don't play winning basketball. If you could make the case that they do play winning basketball I'd love to see it. They have personal production but it's all empty from a team perspective.

Both players LITERALLY made the playoffs every year of their life until Phil came along. Search a little deeper.

I can tell you that you are living in the past. I believed they were still capable but now I see how wrong I was. Melo and Rose are not winning players anymore. They can both still score but they simply don't do enough of the things that lead to wins.

They don't defend and they don't help the team function on a higher level. The team is just marginally better when they're off the court. If we had more well rounded lead players in their place the team would be better off. I want 2 Way players that buy into team play and defense.


KP and Willy can't defend their positions either but you don't mind that...Kuz can't defend..Melo defends 4s better than KP...AHH what's the point..

I bet you KP and Willy defend much better when we replace Melo and Rose with better defenders!

So subtract Melo and Rose and the bigs of this league like Jordan, Griffin, Joric, Towns, AD, Freak, Harris, Lopez, KLove won't have monster./career nights...OK...

No! We have to replace them with 2Way players that give max effort and buy into the Team Game. This isn't about instant success. This is about how we build for the future! Why is this still lost on you??? You know what this is about! We have to move on from Melo and Rose. We've got to Draft, Sign and Develop a better team with players that aren't selfish and lazy!!!

nixluva
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3/21/2017  6:29 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Lots of quotes from Shaq

Best bit was this

“If you look at how the second team runs the triangle, guys who don’t have a lot of experience in the game and a lot of habits, they ran a lot of it late in the fourth quarter and got a couple of backdoor plays,’’ O’Neal said. “It definitely does work. Look at the guys, when Phil put this team together, I was liking it: Porzingis, Carmelo, Rose, [Joakim] Noah. I said, ‘OK, it’s going to work if they embrace the triangle. I like it.’ But again, the ball can never stop

Isn't he saying goes that if we start our second unit, instead of having them.play other teams seconds using its, they would play better? Perhaps he has not seen the games where our second unit lost leads or put games out of reach.

I'm sorry but more often than not the younger players have done better relative to their talent and experience. It shouldn't be close but the vets aren't getting it done. The starters are supposed to win their matchups and the bench you hope can hold on enough until the starters get their rest. Often the bench gets the team back in it and the Starters give it right back.

Gudris
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3/21/2017  6:29 PM
This topic is pointless, problem is defense not offense
blkexec
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3/21/2017  7:04 PM
Gudris wrote:This topic is pointless, problem is defense not offense

Not just defense in general. We have defensive role players that gives out max effort. I think it's the defensive IQ and effort by our star players.

If you think about why the 90's knicks was successful....it's because the star players had high defensive IQ.....They wasn't the top athletic team....or the top offensive team. I remember falling asleep sometimes, because the games was a drag.....low scoring games. But when your star players, or the players who get the most minutes are putting out full effort on defense, it spreads to the other roll players. But when you have a guy like Melo or Rose, who looks off their teammates.....forces up a shot, then complains to the ref, instead of playing defense, that effects the entire team. And usually it's 5 on 4, with an easy bucket.

I think Phil can build a team around a two way player like Butler instead of Melo....Young players coming in will be forced to be a two way player, even if they wasn't in college. Your star player sets the culture. The only way to build a team around melo, is to surround him with vets. Vets will play the same way regardless of melo. Young players look up to melo and defer to him too much...and pickup back defensive habits. And it's frustrating on them. They stand around and watch melo and rose dribble out the clock and go 1 on 4.....Then watch their man score on the other end. That's why people are linking the triangle offense to defense. Sometimes they are related. And with Melo and Rose, I can see it. On top of that, we also lack athletes.....Guys that Isiah loves to draft. That's the one thing I missed about Isiah. He had an eye for two way players.

Lets see how phil handles a solid draft that's not as top heavy as last year. I think 1-10 will have at least 7 legit NBA stars.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
holfresh
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3/21/2017  7:09 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Who cares anyway...Organization won't recover from this for a long time...We will be a lottery team for the next few years...So we need to acquire talent...Hope we find a qualified GM to do the job...

And you accused me of being childish? The organization can recover quite well from not having Melo or Rose for that matter. They no longer play winning basketball. They're net negative players and they kill team play. These are the facts.


You are a child at times..You can't see beyond Melo Rose and Phil...

I talk about Melo and Rose because they quite literally don't play winning basketball. If you could make the case that they do play winning basketball I'd love to see it. They have personal production but it's all empty from a team perspective.

Both players LITERALLY made the playoffs every year of their life until Phil came along. Search a little deeper.

I can tell you that you are living in the past. I believed they were still capable but now I see how wrong I was. Melo and Rose are not winning players anymore. They can both still score but they simply don't do enough of the things that lead to wins.

They don't defend and they don't help the team function on a higher level. The team is just marginally better when they're off the court. If we had more well rounded lead players in their place the team would be better off. I want 2 Way players that buy into team play and defense.


KP and Willy can't defend their positions either but you don't mind that...Kuz can't defend..Melo defends 4s better than KP...AHH what's the point..

I bet you KP and Willy defend much better when we replace Melo and Rose with better defenders!

So subtract Melo and Rose and the bigs of this league like Jordan, Griffin, Joric, Towns, AD, Freak, Harris, Lopez, KLove won't have monster./career nights...OK...

No! We have to replace them with 2Way players that give max effort and buy into the Team Game. This isn't about instant success. This is about how we build for the future! Why is this still lost on you??? You know what this is about! We have to move on from Melo and Rose. We've got to Draft, Sign and Develop a better team with players that aren't selfish and lazy!!!

Your problem is that you are trying to pick winners..Watch the game and assess strength and weaknesses..Right now, interior and perimeter defense is our weakness..But interior is glaring..But you want to play favorites..

TripleThreat
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3/21/2017  7:12 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Lots of quotes from Shaq

Best bit was this

“If you look at how the second team runs the triangle, guys who don’t have a lot of experience in the game and a lot of habits, they ran a lot of it late in the fourth quarter and got a couple of backdoor plays,’’ O’Neal said. “It definitely does work. Look at the guys, when Phil put this team together, I was liking it: Porzingis, Carmelo, Rose, [Joakim] Noah. I said, ‘OK, it’s going to work if they embrace the triangle. I like it.’ But again, the ball can never stop


I think it's some of both.

Some of the players just aren't playing team basketball. The younger players or the limited players, you have to shade that a little. Some players just don't understand yet HOW to play a certain way. Some players don't have the SKILL to play a certain way.

Melo and Rose just don't care. This is on the players side. If you just don't care, that's on you.

Here's a real life example. Married guy finds out his wife is banging some guy at her job. She's a cheating whore. Guy can decide to just leave her, say nothing, exit as clean as he can or guy can cheat back and rub it in his wife's or future ex wifes face.

In response A, the guy comes to terms that he might be in a horrible situation, but nothing, no one, can make him surrender his dignity. Only he can choose to give that up. And that two wrong don't make a right. Players who operate like this are professionals in my book. Good team, bad team, good coach, bad coach, good franchise, bad franchise - Play the game the right way. Don't let circumstance dictate your reaction

In response B, the guy decides two wrongs make a right. If he's not getting what he wants, then it doesn't matter that he does something bad to someone else, just using their flaws and harm inflicted as an excuse to feel justified in the behavior. This is a toxic person doing toxic things against themselves. These are the players who think Dolan is an idiot, the coach I hate, the system is stupid, so why should I even bother to try on defense?

One of the thing I really love about David Lee was, as a Knick, he gave everything he had, night after night. Even if the team around him wasn't so great, even if the future looked bleak, even if the coaching was mindless, even if the franchise seemed like a gigantic mess.

If a player gives everything he has, and the team loses, well he did his best. What more can I ask of him? When a player however just doesn't care and rationalizes being a selfish player, to me, that's undignified. Take the team out of it, you just don't even respect yourself at that point.

How you react says more about you than your direct actions, and your actions say everything about you.

It's not easy to turn the other cheek. To forgive. To show social grace when insulted. But it say something about you. When Melo refuses to play team ball and refuses to play defense, to me, it's undignified. It's unprofessional. It says something about his character. It says he doesn't deserve the honor of wearing a Knicks jersey.

Vmart
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3/21/2017  8:42 PM
The true downfall of the Knicks is lack of defense. It has nothing to do with triangle. It has to do with defense.
reub
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3/21/2017  8:48 PM
Vmart wrote:The true downfall of the Knicks is lack of defense. It has nothing to do with triangle. It has to do with defense.

This is why I worry about drafting a Dennis Smith and some of the other kids out there. Whoever we draft has to be solid defensively.

fishmike
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3/21/2017  9:45 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Melo could play better TEAM BALL but chooses not to. The same goes for Rose. Neither guy is making the effort to be team leaders in playing TEAM BALL. Their ball movement and execution of the offense SUCKS. All they do is score individually but they KILL the team flow on both ends. It's LAZY basketball. They lack the determination and desire to dedicate themselves to team ball. If they did those things it would make a huge difference but they simply don't want to do it. Thus they are no longer Winning players.

Why is Rose averaging a career low assist percentage? He just decided he was gonna pass less here?

Why is Melo's assist percentage lower than it's been in years? He just suddenly decided he was gonna pass less?

I think Melo and Rose started going one on one because the coach was in over his head and had no idea how to implement the Triangle.

The sounds a lot more likely than Rose and Melo just decide they're gonna stop passing... for what reason would they do that? Please give me a reason.

I am searching for one also. So which direction do you want to go? Find whats best for Rose and Melo? Or let Phil Jackson build the team?

You know full well why he gave Melo a big contract and then brought in some firepower to give it a shot. You would have done the same if you were the GM. You had to at least try, and if it started working Knicks had good flexibility to add role player etc to that mix. If you have Melo here (and letting him walk for nada was not an option) you have to give it a shot. Knicks have had very little resources to work with, but on paper his moves all make plenty of sense.

In any case it wasnt meant to be and off to the lottery we go.

You ask great questions though on Rose and Melo. We saw some early games where the ball movement was amazing. 2nd game vs. Memphis Melo had 5 assists. Noah had 7. Big win. I don know what happened man... I really wish I do. But I dont like one bit what I have seen from Melo this year. He's the same player only slower and dumber. He cant guard anyone or doesnt. He has the ball as much as he's ever had yet scores less and passes less. I dont get it. Hornacek isnt retarded. He's a good coach, a good communicator and he simplified things so the team wouldnt get bogged down. This team never commited to defense first and foremost and Hornacek said it after every game. He's says it during games. Its just not going to happen with this group and that alone is enough to let Rose walk, take what we can for Melo and do what we can to aquire talent over the next couple years.

Shaq said it.. Ball cant stop moving. That is more than triangle. That is a style of play. Holfresh can cry about Jordan and Iso in the playoffs. Bla bla bla... when the best player ever took his banishment for 2 years and was replaced by Toni Kukoc the Bulls still won 50 games!

I dont know man... maybe I am just more patient.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
HofstraBBall
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3/21/2017  10:02 PM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Melo could play better TEAM BALL but chooses not to. The same goes for Rose. Neither guy is making the effort to be team leaders in playing TEAM BALL. Their ball movement and execution of the offense SUCKS. All they do is score individually but they KILL the team flow on both ends. It's LAZY basketball. They lack the determination and desire to dedicate themselves to team ball. If they did those things it would make a huge difference but they simply don't want to do it. Thus they are no longer Winning players.

Why is Rose averaging a career low assist percentage? He just decided he was gonna pass less here?

Why is Melo's assist percentage lower than it's been in years? He just suddenly decided he was gonna pass less?

I think Melo and Rose started going one on one because the coach was in over his head and had no idea how to implement the Triangle.

The sounds a lot more likely than Rose and Melo just decide they're gonna stop passing... for what reason would they do that? Please give me a reason.

I am searching for one also. So which direction do you want to go? Find whats best for Rose and Melo? Or let Phil Jackson build the team?

You know full well why he gave Melo a big contract and then brought in some firepower to give it a shot. You would have done the same if you were the GM. You had to at least try, and if it started working Knicks had good flexibility to add role player etc to that mix. If you have Melo here (and letting him walk for nada was not an option) you have to give it a shot. Knicks have had very little resources to work with, but on paper his moves all make plenty of sense.

In any case it wasnt meant to be and off to the lottery we go.

You ask great questions though on Rose and Melo. We saw some early games where the ball movement was amazing. 2nd game vs. Memphis Melo had 5 assists. Noah had 7. Big win. I don know what happened man... I really wish I do. But I dont like one bit what I have seen from Melo this year. He's the same player only slower and dumber. He cant guard anyone or doesnt. He has the ball as much as he's ever had yet scores less and passes less. I dont get it. Hornacek isnt retarded. He's a good coach, a good communicator and he simplified things so the team wouldnt get bogged down. This team never commited to defense first and foremost and Hornacek said it after every game. He's says it during games. Its just not going to happen with this group and that alone is enough to let Rose walk, take what we can for Melo and do what we can to aquire talent over the next couple years.

Shaq said it.. Ball cant stop moving. That is more than triangle. That is a style of play. Holfresh can cry about Jordan and Iso in the playoffs. Bla bla bla... when the best player ever took his banishment for 2 years and was replaced by Toni Kukoc the Bulls still won 50 games!

I dont know man... maybe I am just more patient.

I vote for building a new team with a young GM that also focuses on defense. And not an old stubborn one married to an old offensive system. Both which most likely won't be here for the long haul. Melo and Rose are secondary issues at this point. Rose will no longer be a concern in 12 games. However, will you change your opinion of Phil if he resigns Rose? Or will you suddenly change your mind about Rose?

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
crzymdups
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3/21/2017  10:19 PM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Melo could play better TEAM BALL but chooses not to. The same goes for Rose. Neither guy is making the effort to be team leaders in playing TEAM BALL. Their ball movement and execution of the offense SUCKS. All they do is score individually but they KILL the team flow on both ends. It's LAZY basketball. They lack the determination and desire to dedicate themselves to team ball. If they did those things it would make a huge difference but they simply don't want to do it. Thus they are no longer Winning players.

Why is Rose averaging a career low assist percentage? He just decided he was gonna pass less here?

Why is Melo's assist percentage lower than it's been in years? He just suddenly decided he was gonna pass less?

I think Melo and Rose started going one on one because the coach was in over his head and had no idea how to implement the Triangle.

The sounds a lot more likely than Rose and Melo just decide they're gonna stop passing... for what reason would they do that? Please give me a reason.

I am searching for one also. So which direction do you want to go? Find whats best for Rose and Melo? Or let Phil Jackson build the team?

You know full well why he gave Melo a big contract and then brought in some firepower to give it a shot. You would have done the same if you were the GM. You had to at least try, and if it started working Knicks had good flexibility to add role player etc to that mix. If you have Melo here (and letting him walk for nada was not an option) you have to give it a shot. Knicks have had very little resources to work with, but on paper his moves all make plenty of sense.

In any case it wasnt meant to be and off to the lottery we go.

You ask great questions though on Rose and Melo. We saw some early games where the ball movement was amazing. 2nd game vs. Memphis Melo had 5 assists. Noah had 7. Big win. I don know what happened man... I really wish I do. But I dont like one bit what I have seen from Melo this year. He's the same player only slower and dumber. He cant guard anyone or doesnt. He has the ball as much as he's ever had yet scores less and passes less. I dont get it. Hornacek isnt retarded. He's a good coach, a good communicator and he simplified things so the team wouldnt get bogged down. This team never commited to defense first and foremost and Hornacek said it after every game. He's says it during games. Its just not going to happen with this group and that alone is enough to let Rose walk, take what we can for Melo and do what we can to aquire talent over the next couple years.

Shaq said it.. Ball cant stop moving. That is more than triangle. That is a style of play. Holfresh can cry about Jordan and Iso in the playoffs. Bla bla bla... when the best player ever took his banishment for 2 years and was replaced by Toni Kukoc the Bulls still won 50 games!

I dont know man... maybe I am just more patient.

It's really the central question of the season. I am not content to let Nixluva blame Rose and Melo for choosing to play that way. I tend to think it's more complicated - both those guys wanted desperately to win this year, Rose got so upset with their struggles he went AWOL and rumoredly debated quitting the game in January.

Look, I know we need to move on from both Rose and Melo. At this point, it's like a relationship where there's been cheating and nasty arguments - to borrow that relationship metaphor someone else in this thread mentioned. There's no point in continuing it. Move on.

But. I am curious as hell to know what the heck went wrong here. Maybe it was as simple as the Triangle was too complicated for Rose... though weren't we told by nixluva and others that Thibs ran as much as 25% Triangle sets in Chicago? We saw highlights of Rose and Noah running Triangle plays in Bulls uniforms! Melo looked like a point forward who could make others better as recently as last season... and even earlier this season. I'm just so curious where this went wrong.

And Phil has made the narrative that it is Melo's fault for not moving the ball... when I really don't think it's that simple. Who knows. Melo, as you've mentioned is certainly older and a step slower on D and I think a bunch of us have said that playing the big lineup did no one any favors on Defense. I don't know if I buy that's he dumber.

I'm willing to be patient going forward. I want young draft picks to build around. The flaming train wreck this team became does make me doubt the coach a little though. I want to like Hornacek, but I've seen some red flags from him all year. He deserves a clean year and a chance to build a system with the young guys... but I do think this season goes down as a bit of a red flag against Hornacek. And it certainly goes down as a major red flag agaisnt Phil for the way he tried to intervene with the team. It still goes down in the books that the team was 14-10, trending up and then Phil starts knocking Melo in public, knocking Lebron... was he just cranky because Jeannie was in the process of dumping him? (they announced their split a few weeks later) Who really knows with Phil. But he's gotta own that. And I really really really question if him running Triangle seminars in season is helpful in any way for the team, or if it undermines the coach.

So, yeah, I come out of the season hopeful about the draft and finally doing a real rebuild. But also more leery about Phil's tactics and a little leery that Hornacek is the right coach going forward. Time will tell.

¿ △ ?
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
3/21/2017  10:36 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Who cares anyway...Organization won't recover from this for a long time...We will be a lottery team for the next few years...So we need to acquire talent...Hope we find a qualified GM to do the job...

And you accused me of being childish? The organization can recover quite well from not having Melo or Rose for that matter. They no longer play winning basketball. They're net negative players and they kill team play. These are the facts.


You are a child at times..You can't see beyond Melo Rose and Phil...

I talk about Melo and Rose because they quite literally don't play winning basketball. If you could make the case that they do play winning basketball I'd love to see it. They have personal production but it's all empty from a team perspective.

Both players LITERALLY made the playoffs every year of their life until Phil came along. Search a little deeper.

I can tell you that you are living in the past. I believed they were still capable but now I see how wrong I was. Melo and Rose are not winning players anymore. They can both still score but they simply don't do enough of the things that lead to wins.

They don't defend and they don't help the team function on a higher level. The team is just marginally better when they're off the court. If we had more well rounded lead players in their place the team would be better off. I want 2 Way players that buy into team play and defense.


KP and Willy can't defend their positions either but you don't mind that...Kuz can't defend..Melo defends 4s better than KP...AHH what's the point..

I bet you KP and Willy defend much better when we replace Melo and Rose with better defenders!

Dude Kp/willy is like having David lee and Amare on defense

ES
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
3/21/2017  11:58 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Who cares anyway...Organization won't recover from this for a long time...We will be a lottery team for the next few years...So we need to acquire talent...Hope we find a qualified GM to do the job...

And you accused me of being childish? The organization can recover quite well from not having Melo or Rose for that matter. They no longer play winning basketball. They're net negative players and they kill team play. These are the facts.


You are a child at times..You can't see beyond Melo Rose and Phil...

I talk about Melo and Rose because they quite literally don't play winning basketball. If you could make the case that they do play winning basketball I'd love to see it. They have personal production but it's all empty from a team perspective.

Both players LITERALLY made the playoffs every year of their life until Phil came along. Search a little deeper.

I can tell you that you are living in the past. I believed they were still capable but now I see how wrong I was. Melo and Rose are not winning players anymore. They can both still score but they simply don't do enough of the things that lead to wins.

They don't defend and they don't help the team function on a higher level. The team is just marginally better when they're off the court. If we had more well rounded lead players in their place the team would be better off. I want 2 Way players that buy into team play and defense.


KP and Willy can't defend their positions either but you don't mind that...Kuz can't defend..Melo defends 4s better than KP...AHH what's the point..

I bet you KP and Willy defend much better when we replace Melo and Rose with better defenders!

Dude Kp/willy is like having David lee and Amare on defense

No it's not! You lose all credibility with comments like that. KP and Willy are 21/22 and have started exactly SEVEN DAMN GAMES TOGETHER!!! GTFOH!!! You think you have it all figured out after just 7 starts together? How about letting them grow and mature into this???

You want to excuse the SELFISH, LAZY and STUBBORN Melo and Rose? WTF did they do for this team this year? Did they LEAD? Did they SACRIFICE? Did they give MAX EFFORT and LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FLOOR?

HELL NO!!! SCREW THEM!!!

Shaq blames Melo, Rose and Knicks players not Triangle

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