BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

He tried and failed at winning now. He did not fail at stockpiling youth. He's got to finish off his contract and then we can evaluate what to do next. We expect to be in the lotto this off season and ther next. That coinsides with that plan... so we all just need to chill and enjoy this. It's never been done before. Id hate to miss this journey crying

Yeah, at the very least he gave us flexibility. Rose sucks, but he is only here for a year. Not really a big deal in the long-term. The team still needs to sell tickets and Rose did create buzz early on. I think it freed up Phil to start planning long-term w/o James breathing down his neck. I think it also frees us up in terms of draft strategy. We can truly look at the best player available, instead of reaching based on position.

we had more flexibility before this summer. Lee & Noah eat up a lot of the cap, and they are the wrong side of 30.

I get that things could be worse.

However, we have to wait and see what we do with Rose before we talk about flexibility.

newyorknewyork wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

He tried and failed at winning now. He did not fail at stockpiling youth. He's got to finish off his contract and then we can evaluate what to do next. We expect to be in the lotto this off season and ther next. That coinsides with that plan... so we all just need to chill and enjoy this. It's never been done before. Id hate to miss this journey crying

Yeah, at the very least he gave us flexibility. Rose sucks, but he is only here for a year. Not really a big deal in the long-term. The team still needs to sell tickets and Rose did create buzz early on. I think it freed up Phil to start planning long-term w/o James breathing down his neck. I think it also frees us up in terms of draft strategy. We can truly look at the best player available, instead of reaching based on position.

The last time we had 2 Knick drafted lotto picks on the team was Danilo Gallinari and Jordan Hill. (Yeah I know I proposed trading the pick for Porter but I was just going over options. And I would still do it if he proves to be more valuable then the available pick)

Hill is a good example of us reaching for a player based on position played, rather than talent lol I like Porter. But if we sign him, it ramps up our need to find a quality playmaker. Otto is a good player, but he plays a defined role and can't carry us. I could see threads like "Porter is nonstarter material" if we added him next year.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

He picked up Rose, Noah & Lee & Jennings.

He basically had no choice but to fill the remaining spots with rookies because he had already maxed out his cap space.

Who are these great rookies Phil brought in to build the future with? Ron Baker? Kuz? Randle? Those three are borderline NBA players, and would be sitting on the bench on better teams.

I know I don't know what Phil was thinking. But I think it is reasonably to assume that as a GM, you don't hand out 4 year deals to Noah & Lee if you're thinking they'll be great for the kids. Sorry, Herb Williams is around.

You don't trade Lopez who has played every game for, in essence, two players that barely played 82 between them last year in Noah & Rose.

You don't bring in Rose, and then change your mind because, well, he doesn't fit the triangle. Phil is not paid $12M a year to rely on hindsight.

So while I don't know for sure what Phil was thinking, he sure acted and traded out like he thought things were going to be way better.

Because if you thought we were going to end up in the lottery, he could have saved $50M by not acquiring Rose, Lee & Noah and achieved the same results.

Look, his gamble was SO BAD, I have to question his judgement.

Actually, those rooks are an excellent bench that matches up great with most benches in the NBA. Certainly better than borderline talent.

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

Exactly this ^^^.

Phil had to do two things - give Melo a shot to prove himself with "legit" talent to placate Dolan...AND show Dolan the direction that lays ahead, which is to rebuild through the draft. He accomplished his goals and will set us on a better path forward. That's maybe not a win now strategy, but it's the RIGHT strategy for this franchise. Finally! After so much mediocrity, someone gets it and had the balls to see it through, despite JD.

BRIGGS wrote:I would say unless we get Ball or some kind of different miracle-- were are bound to rebuild regardless of Jim Dolan wanting to or not. We have an older Carmelo Anthony and a whole lot of holes

That should be the goal -- top 6 pick this year. Top 5 pick next year and maybe even a Top 10 pick in 2019 -- I think KP would be 25 going into 2020 season -- correct?

franco12 wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

Exactly this ^^^.

Phil had to do two things - give Melo a shot to prove himself with "legit" talent to placate Dolan...AND show Dolan the direction that lays ahead, which is to rebuild through the draft. He accomplished his goals and will set us on a better path forward. That's maybe not a win now strategy, but it's the RIGHT strategy for this franchise. Finally! After so much mediocrity, someone gets it and had the balls to see it through, despite JD.

I don't understand how you can think that Phil's off season moves were designed to show Dolan that he had to rebuild. I don't buy it.

It's a lovely thought. Really.

I think Phil's approach was to try to put a winning roster together. He had his star player, and he thought Melo like Lebron could lift up a team and get it to the play offs. He gambled, getting the only talent that was available- which all had flaws. I'm sure he knew they had flaws, but I think it's a reach to think Phil did this almost to spite Dolan. Hah, I spent $74m on Noah, he's a winner. Oh, look, he's hurt. Have to rebuild.

No, Phil handed out an awful contract to a player whose best days are behind him.

I'm tired of being Donnie Walsh giving out a max deal to Amare.

I want to be the Phoenix Suns that won't go more than 1-3 years because they know he can't last. I want to be the smart franchise that makes smart moves.

I think Phil figured he was playing with house money. He probably thought Noah had more in the tank, but he knew KP, and maybe even Willy, would fill in eventually in a few years anyway. Rose was a roll of the dice. If he performs, we have a PG for the next few years. If he doesn't, he just comes off the books. Even the best GMs give horrible contracts and make bad trades once in a while. Phoenix traded for Shaq at the wrong point in his career, too. The key is not compounding the situation, like, signing Jared Jeffries or trading for Steve Francis. Phil's moves, still give us the ability, to pivot. I'm not the biggest Phil fan, but at least he hasn't damned our future to chase after a seventh seed in the playoffs.

BigDaddyG wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

Exactly this ^^^.

Phil had to do two things - give Melo a shot to prove himself with "legit" talent to placate Dolan...AND show Dolan the direction that lays ahead, which is to rebuild through the draft. He accomplished his goals and will set us on a better path forward. That's maybe not a win now strategy, but it's the RIGHT strategy for this franchise. Finally! After so much mediocrity, someone gets it and had the balls to see it through, despite JD.

I don't understand how you can think that Phil's off season moves were designed to show Dolan that he had to rebuild. I don't buy it.

It's a lovely thought. Really.

I think Phil's approach was to try to put a winning roster together. He had his star player, and he thought Melo like Lebron could lift up a team and get it to the play offs. He gambled, getting the only talent that was available- which all had flaws. I'm sure he knew they had flaws, but I think it's a reach to think Phil did this almost to spite Dolan. Hah, I spent $74m on Noah, he's a winner. Oh, look, he's hurt. Have to rebuild.

No, Phil handed out an awful contract to a player whose best days are behind him.

I'm tired of being Donnie Walsh giving out a max deal to Amare.

I want to be the Phoenix Suns that won't go more than 1-3 years because they know he can't last. I want to be the smart franchise that makes smart moves.

I think Phil figured he was playing with house money. He probably thought Noah had more in the tank, but he knew KP, and maybe even Willy, would fill in eventually in a few years anyway. Rose was a roll of the dice. If he performs, we have a PG for the next few years. If he doesn't, he just comes off the books. Even the best GMs give horrible contracts and make bad trades once in a while. Phoenix traded for Shaq at the wrong point in his career, too. The key is not compounding the situation, like, signing Jared Jeffries or trading for Steve Francis. Phil's moves, still give us the ability, to pivot. I'm not the biggest Phil fan, but at least he hasn't damned our future to chase after a seventh seed in the playoffs.

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

So then maybe now all the people that play internet GM can stop now since we all thought we were gonna compete this year so i guess we all suck at judging talent.

franco12 wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

Exactly this ^^^.

Phil had to do two things - give Melo a shot to prove himself with "legit" talent to placate Dolan...AND show Dolan the direction that lays ahead, which is to rebuild through the draft. He accomplished his goals and will set us on a better path forward. That's maybe not a win now strategy, but it's the RIGHT strategy for this franchise. Finally! After so much mediocrity, someone gets it and had the balls to see it through, despite JD.

I don't understand how you can think that Phil's off season moves were designed to show Dolan that he had to rebuild. I don't buy it.

It's a lovely thought. Really.

I think Phil's approach was to try to put a winning roster together. He had his star player, and he thought Melo like Lebron could lift up a team and get it to the play offs. He gambled, getting the only talent that was available- which all had flaws. I'm sure he knew they had flaws, but I think it's a reach to think Phil did this almost to spite Dolan. Hah, I spent $74m on Noah, he's a winner. Oh, look, he's hurt. Have to rebuild.

No, Phil handed out an awful contract to a player whose best days are behind him.

I'm tired of being Donnie Walsh giving out a max deal to Amare.

I want to be the Phoenix Suns that won't go more than 1-3 years because they know he can't last. I want to be the smart franchise that makes smart moves.

He didn't say anything about spiting Dolan. Dolan had shown over the years he values starfukking over team building. Any GM wanting to rebuild would either have to appease Dolan with parallel development that includes star fukkung or they would get fired. Phil is juggling the need to rebuild with the need to appease and idiot owner and his idiot franchise star. It ain't easy, it LOOKS easy. After doing that for 2-3 years even Dolan maybe coming around to comprehending the obvious. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

BRIGGS wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I would say unless we get Ball or some kind of different miracle-- were are bound to rebuild regardless of Jim Dolan wanting to or not. We have an older Carmelo Anthony and a whole lot of holes

That should be the goal -- top 6 pick this year. Top 5 pick next year and maybe even a Top 10 pick in 2019 -- I think KP would be 25 going into 2020 season -- correct?

If we get into the top 5-6 I feel confident well get a good player--Im scared past 6. I want no part of the skinny french PG--and darn I could be wrong as heck--but I think for this organization we need safety. I think with one of Fox Tatum Ball Jackson or Fultz we will be getting atleast a good player. I dont feel like Im guessing there. Maybe those guys dont end up as good as the franchise--but thats ok. Thats why we need full steam ahead on losing--I really dont want to be negative on the Knicks other than pointing out facts--like KP and Willy together dont look good defensively. Lee might be better suited to come off the bench next year. Stay objective so we are not fooling ourselves. But in terms of the L's a loss is a win--if we lose the last 12 games--mathematically we are GUARANTEED spot 4 with a supreme outside shot at 3(the Suns would have to go 6-6 and wed have to go 0-12. At spot #4 we have a lot of BALLS and we have position. There is better than 50% chance we can move up and the laws of averages might be on our side.

I really dont want to be negative on the Knicks other than pointing out facts--like KP and Willy together dont look good defensively

Knicks just need to go through this. They need to let these guys take their lumps while they build up this talent base.

franco12 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

He tried and failed at winning now. He did not fail at stockpiling youth. He's got to finish off his contract and then we can evaluate what to do next. We expect to be in the lotto this off season and ther next. That coinsides with that plan... so we all just need to chill and enjoy this. It's never been done before. Id hate to miss this journey crying

He tried and failed, but it wasn't close. He badly misjudged talent and how it would fit together.

If Dolan could bring someone in that could say - like Briggs thread - we're 3-5 years away, lets plan for that and act accordingly- then he has to make that move.

I'm not sure Phil believes we're that far away.

Why else do you bring in a pair of FA that are on the wrong side of 30?