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crzymdups
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3/21/2017  10:18 AM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

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crzymdups
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3/21/2017  10:19 AM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Was it a rest game for Scorebot or has he been benched?

Scorebot was upset with the tanking. lol

I liked KP's game. Played really well. I think the Triangle suits him alot. His 3 point shot is off, but he needs to keep shooting those. He needs to work on adding more arc. His 3 ball is too flat.

Fisher's quote on KP sums up what I've always liked about him. He is the opposite of many young stars in the league.

At this point in the season, a loss is better than a win, and I personally want young players to get their chances and play well in losses. Tonight Willy struggled, but KP played really well. Hopefully Willy can play better next game. The losses sit much better with me if Willy and KP play well and we lose, than if KP/Willy are non-factors and we lose.

Hornachek was tanking hard in this game. The second quarter lineup he rolled out for a long stretch had 4 D leaguers in it. That early to go a Plumlee, Kuz, Randle, Baker .... with no Rose/Melo/KP with them. Definitely think he's in on the tank now.

We may win 2 or 3 more games rest of the season. Can top 5 (5th) actually be possible?

I'm sure we will win a game we don't expect to somewhere along the way, but every game we play for the rest of the year is against a team that needs the game for playoffs positioning until the last game against the Sixers. I could see a scenario where we lose out. A game back of the Sixers and Magic in the all important tank standings. Hopefully we can at least tie those two teams

when Melo/Rose sit the 2nd unit plays very hard and moves the ball. That squad is going to keep us in games. Melo and Rose will have their shooting nights and we will win a couple. Its tough to avoid. Knicks could finish as high as 4 which would be amazing. They could be as low as 8 which would be really bad. Knicks are neck and neck with Phil/Sac/Minn/Orl. Those are the 4 teams that if we beat gets us to 4. If they out tank us we end up 8th

Its important. The Chi/Phili games coming up are the only ones vs. tanking teams. That being said I think we are looking at 2-10 which ends us at 29-53. We should be picking pretty high

Chicago's still trying to make the playoffs aren't they? Either way, I have faith in our ability to lose. The only thing I worry about is that the kids will come in a game in the 4th and the starters won't have dug a big enough hole and the kids make a come back.

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nixluva
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3/21/2017  10:46 AM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

crzymdups
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3/21/2017  10:52 AM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

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nixluva
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3/21/2017  11:04 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/21/2017  11:05 AM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Who's talking about structuring the "entire offense"??? I'm saying that when Melo gets the ball he is in a position to decide what happens next. Melo has chose NOT to be a playmaker more often this year and it's not something coming from the coach or the Front Office. This is ALL MELO!!! He's still getting the ball in pretty much the same ways he always has.

ALso let's get real here, Hornacek is open to suggestions from his players. He's not some authoritarian, my way or the highway type coach. If Melo wanted to run more of what he did last year under Fisher he MOST CERTAINLY could ask to do that. They weren't even running the Triangle for much of the year and you think Melo didn't have options for what he wanted to do when he got the ball???

Hornacek ran more spread PnR offense than Fisher did with the Knicks!!!

fishmike
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3/21/2017  11:05 AM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Melo can certainly decide to move the ball of hold it. It an interesting question though... why did Melo pass for Fisher but not Hornacek? Which was followed by grumpy tweets with grandpa Phil? I would love to know what really happened there. Then again who cares.. Melo/Rose need to go. I can live with lottery guys who play on both ends and a team game. If they stink we can just keep drafting. I dont care at this point
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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3/21/2017  11:15 AM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Who's talking about structuring the "entire offense"??? I'm saying that when Melo gets the ball he is in a position to decide what happens next. Melo has chose NOT to be a playmaker more often this year and it's not something coming from the coach or the Front Office. This is ALL MELO!!! He's still getting the ball in pretty much the same ways he always has.

ALso let's get real here, Hornacek is open to suggestions from his players. He's not some authoritarian, my way or the highway type coach. If Melo wanted to run more of what he did last year under Fisher he MOST CERTAINLY could ask to do that. They weren't even running the Triangle for much of the year and you think Melo didn't have options for what he wanted to do when he got the ball???

Hornacek ran more spread PnR offense than Fisher did with the Knicks!!!

The players don't respect Hornacek. He's fine. I guarantee he will never coach a playoffs game for this team though.

And, yes, we are talking about the structure of the entire offense. Melo doesn't tell the other players where to go when he passes to them. He can't mind-beam them to the right areas of the court. That's the coaching. That's the play calls. That's the structure of the entire offense.

Hornacek built the wrong offense for this team. Jackson is trying to take it back to Triangle 101 now because it's clear there will be a rebuild. That's fine. But Fisher actually built a smart system for the very limited roster he had and it had Melo playing some of the best team ball of his career.

Your idea that Melo CHOSE to not move the ball this year is patently absurd. I'm sorry I called it idiotic, but I have a hard time finding other words for it.

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crzymdups
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3/21/2017  11:24 AM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Melo can certainly decide to move the ball of hold it. It an interesting question though... why did Melo pass for Fisher but not Hornacek? Which was followed by grumpy tweets with grandpa Phil? I would love to know what really happened there. Then again who cares.. Melo/Rose need to go. I can live with lottery guys who play on both ends and a team game. If they stink we can just keep drafting. I dont care at this point

I do think Fisher designed a system that had the other players cutting and reacting off Melo in the pinch post. Rolo was an ideal center for the Triangle and played off Melo well. The offense last year flowed better and had better movement and spacing. Maybe part of that was Calderon barely touched the ball and mainly just stationed himself outside as a knock down three point shooter.

I liked Fisher. I agreed with a lot of the play calls he drew up and system he designed. The Matt Barnes situation was embarrassing, but imho not something you need to fire a guy over. The lack of communication issue with Phil... I dunno. Was he resisting Phil's desires to run a more pure Triangle and take out some of the pick and roll options he was adding to it? It also strikes me as absurd that Phil was spending large chunks of the year in CA and then complaining about Fisher not responding to texts. Phil has shown a propensity to want to be overly involved. He ran a Triangle workshop for the players last week. Maybe Fisher would refuse those things?

To be honest, I think what Phil does undermines his coaching staff. The Begley story about Phil's anniversary said the players respect Hornacek less for going back to the Triangle - I can see why. They know Hornacek is not the authority and Phil is. Fisher maybe did a better job of keeping Phil's influence out and Phil didn't like that. Just a theory, but there's evidence to back it up if you look at how many more Triangle workshops Phil started running once he fired Fisher and even what Phil said in his little note when he fired Fisher. Anyway. We are all agreed it is time to move on from Melo and do a true rebuild. I just don't think Phil or Hornacek will even be here at "the end" of the rebuild. I guess we'll see.

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nixluva
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3/21/2017  11:47 AM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Who's talking about structuring the "entire offense"??? I'm saying that when Melo gets the ball he is in a position to decide what happens next. Melo has chose NOT to be a playmaker more often this year and it's not something coming from the coach or the Front Office. This is ALL MELO!!! He's still getting the ball in pretty much the same ways he always has.

ALso let's get real here, Hornacek is open to suggestions from his players. He's not some authoritarian, my way or the highway type coach. If Melo wanted to run more of what he did last year under Fisher he MOST CERTAINLY could ask to do that. They weren't even running the Triangle for much of the year and you think Melo didn't have options for what he wanted to do when he got the ball???

Hornacek ran more spread PnR offense than Fisher did with the Knicks!!!

The players don't respect Hornacek. He's fine. I guarantee he will never coach a playoffs game for this team though.

And, yes, we are talking about the structure of the entire offense. Melo doesn't tell the other players where to go when he passes to them. He can't mind-beam them to the right areas of the court. That's the coaching. That's the play calls. That's the structure of the entire offense.

Hornacek built the wrong offense for this team. Jackson is trying to take it back to Triangle 101 now because it's clear there will be a rebuild. That's fine. But Fisher actually built a smart system for the very limited roster he had and it had Melo playing some of the best team ball of his career.

Your idea that Melo CHOSE to not move the ball this year is patently absurd. I'm sorry I called it idiotic, but I have a hard time finding other words for it.

Your take on this is hard to fathom. You really think that Melo isn't passing the ball as much because of the offense Hornacek devised? For that to be the case Melo would have to be limited to mostly Catch and Shoot looks and that's not the case.

Melo still gets a TON of Pinch Post touches as he did last year. He also still gets the ball on the perimeter as he did last year. The only real difference is that he's not looking to be a Playmaker as much this year and that is ALL ON MELO!!!

Melo's Usage is exactly the same as last year. Melo's Defensive Rating is WAY WORSE and his Assist % is way down. If Melo was passing more it would be great since his offense is on the decline. He should have listened to Horny and Phil but he decided not to be a Leader and Playmaker on his own!!!

crzymdups
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3/21/2017  12:41 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Who's talking about structuring the "entire offense"??? I'm saying that when Melo gets the ball he is in a position to decide what happens next. Melo has chose NOT to be a playmaker more often this year and it's not something coming from the coach or the Front Office. This is ALL MELO!!! He's still getting the ball in pretty much the same ways he always has.

ALso let's get real here, Hornacek is open to suggestions from his players. He's not some authoritarian, my way or the highway type coach. If Melo wanted to run more of what he did last year under Fisher he MOST CERTAINLY could ask to do that. They weren't even running the Triangle for much of the year and you think Melo didn't have options for what he wanted to do when he got the ball???

Hornacek ran more spread PnR offense than Fisher did with the Knicks!!!

The players don't respect Hornacek. He's fine. I guarantee he will never coach a playoffs game for this team though.

And, yes, we are talking about the structure of the entire offense. Melo doesn't tell the other players where to go when he passes to them. He can't mind-beam them to the right areas of the court. That's the coaching. That's the play calls. That's the structure of the entire offense.

Hornacek built the wrong offense for this team. Jackson is trying to take it back to Triangle 101 now because it's clear there will be a rebuild. That's fine. But Fisher actually built a smart system for the very limited roster he had and it had Melo playing some of the best team ball of his career.

Your idea that Melo CHOSE to not move the ball this year is patently absurd. I'm sorry I called it idiotic, but I have a hard time finding other words for it.

Your take on this is hard to fathom. You really think that Melo isn't passing the ball as much because of the offense Hornacek devised? For that to be the case Melo would have to be limited to mostly Catch and Shoot looks and that's not the case.

Melo still gets a TON of Pinch Post touches as he did last year. He also still gets the ball on the perimeter as he did last year. The only real difference is that he's not looking to be a Playmaker as much this year and that is ALL ON MELO!!!

Melo's Usage is exactly the same as last year. Melo's Defensive Rating is WAY WORSE and his Assist % is way down. If Melo was passing more it would be great since his offense is on the decline. He should have listened to Horny and Phil but he decided not to be a Leader and Playmaker on his own!!!

So you don't see a difference in the way the team has been coached or runs its offense? You think the only difference has been the choices Melo makes with the ball? I don't believe you.

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nixluva
Posts: 56258
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3/21/2017  12:52 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

When Melo gets the ball he MOST CERTAINLY chooses whether he wants a screen or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about since Melo holds the ball the most before actually making a move. Melo gets the MOST Pinch Post touches which is a 2 man game and if he wants to go PnR he can.

Fisher was gone on Feb 8th!!! So no he did not coach over half the games.

I agree that Melo was used well by Fisher but disagree that Melo is now woefully deficient at passing because of the Triangle or how he's being used. This is TOTALLY on Melo. Perhaps you simply can't see how much Melo controls the offense when he has the ball but I can assure you that he's in complete control when he has it and also if he really wanted to he would simply let his teammates know he would be looking to set them up. Stop making excuses for Melo!!!

I'm not making excuses for Melo. Im saying Fisher got Melo to play a smart brand of system basketball that incorporated a lot of Triangle. Hornacek has utterly failed at that. Your idea that Melo chooses how to structure the entire offense is idiotic. I'm sorry.

Who's talking about structuring the "entire offense"??? I'm saying that when Melo gets the ball he is in a position to decide what happens next. Melo has chose NOT to be a playmaker more often this year and it's not something coming from the coach or the Front Office. This is ALL MELO!!! He's still getting the ball in pretty much the same ways he always has.

ALso let's get real here, Hornacek is open to suggestions from his players. He's not some authoritarian, my way or the highway type coach. If Melo wanted to run more of what he did last year under Fisher he MOST CERTAINLY could ask to do that. They weren't even running the Triangle for much of the year and you think Melo didn't have options for what he wanted to do when he got the ball???

Hornacek ran more spread PnR offense than Fisher did with the Knicks!!!

The players don't respect Hornacek. He's fine. I guarantee he will never coach a playoffs game for this team though.

And, yes, we are talking about the structure of the entire offense. Melo doesn't tell the other players where to go when he passes to them. He can't mind-beam them to the right areas of the court. That's the coaching. That's the play calls. That's the structure of the entire offense.

Hornacek built the wrong offense for this team. Jackson is trying to take it back to Triangle 101 now because it's clear there will be a rebuild. That's fine. But Fisher actually built a smart system for the very limited roster he had and it had Melo playing some of the best team ball of his career.

Your idea that Melo CHOSE to not move the ball this year is patently absurd. I'm sorry I called it idiotic, but I have a hard time finding other words for it.

Your take on this is hard to fathom. You really think that Melo isn't passing the ball as much because of the offense Hornacek devised? For that to be the case Melo would have to be limited to mostly Catch and Shoot looks and that's not the case.

Melo still gets a TON of Pinch Post touches as he did last year. He also still gets the ball on the perimeter as he did last year. The only real difference is that he's not looking to be a Playmaker as much this year and that is ALL ON MELO!!!

Melo's Usage is exactly the same as last year. Melo's Defensive Rating is WAY WORSE and his Assist % is way down. If Melo was passing more it would be great since his offense is on the decline. He should have listened to Horny and Phil but he decided not to be a Leader and Playmaker on his own!!!

So you don't see a difference in the way the team has been coached or runs its offense? You think the only difference has been the choices Melo makes with the ball? I don't believe you.

I'm saying quite clearly that Melo has the same usage and gets the Ball in the same spots pretty much and he has the same option to be a Playmaker or not. This year he has CHOSEN NOT to be a Playmaker and it has nothing to do with Hornacek. In fact I'm pretty sure he wants Melo to be more of a Playmaker. This is totally on Melo if he shoots or looks to pass or call for a screen. Once he has the ball all of those options are available on most of his touches.

nyknickzingis
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3/21/2017  1:11 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/21/2017  1:14 PM
Seems like we do this daily, but I think Melo thought once he had Rose and that Horny was telling him to get up the court and shoot the ball at the wing early, to get that early offense going, I think once he heard that it gave him the signal that he could just shoot more freely and have the green light.

Last year we played strictly halfcourt. With Jose Calderon running the point or Gallo, Melo became the defacto PG. It worked well for about 40 games than it becamse the same crap it has been after this year's start.

Be it Fisher's offense or Horny's the consistent theme in both seasons is after a solid start the team implodes. I don't know why. I can't even figure it out. Why if the team is so bad, do they begin well? People can't pretend Fish got fired at 22-22. He got fired at 23-31. The team was in a tailspin, having lost 8 straight games at one point I believe.

I am thinkig Fish would have done better defensively with this group, but we'd score less points and be more Melo centric offensively. We'd maybe struggle to get more than 101 points a night. I think he'd do better than Hornachek, only because Fisher seems to have respect from Melo/Rose and guys like that and would have gotten them to play better defense. I don't think we make the playoffs either year with Fish, last or this.

Bottom line is for whatever reason two consecutive seasons this team just implodes after a solid start. This season it was more of a consistent implosion. Last year it came out of nowhere. Maybe we overachieve early and KP plays great and then when KP struggles we struggle? Both seasons it seems KP started off red hot and then got hurt/hit a wall ... cooled off and with that our play also regressed.

If KP had played the entire season like November, we likely are 6 wins better. He couldn't keep it up, because he's not a superstar yet. That is also part of our problem. Good teams tend to have 1 bonafide star who can score at a great percentage shooting wise. KP was giving us that early, but after that he has not been able to. Melo has been on and off all season. He is in decline. Rose can only drive. We don't have a star that can will us to wins, and carry the team through rough patches of the season. All the good teams tend to have that player in his peak/prime. Melo USED to be that kind of player, he hasn't been since he hit his thirties. Rose was that player too, but before the injuries.

HofstraBBall
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3/21/2017  4:40 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just to get back to the question of Melo and PnR under Hornacek versus last year under Fish/Rambis. He's doing it more this year than last year. I couldn't do a split by month, which would've been more informative. At any rate Melo doesn't use PnR enough given his ability as a PnR Ball Handler.

Playtype Pick & Roll Ball Handler
FT TO SF AND ONE SCORE
PLAYER TEAM GP POSS FREQ PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% EFG% FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ FREQ PERCENTILE
2016-17 Carmelo Anthony NYK 56 3.8 16.3% 0.85 3.3 1.3 3.1 42.5 45.1 8.9% 12.6% 7.9% 2.8% 40.2% 61.6
2015-16 Carmelo Anthony NYK 72 3.0 13.1% 0.80 2.4 0.9 2.4 39.2 43.6 7.3% 14.7% 6.4% 0.9% 37.2% 57.2

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PlayerFirstName&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PlayerFirstName*E*

Unless you can separate out the games just Fisher coached, I'm not really interested in the Fisher/Rambis combo numbers.

Anyone who watched the games can tell you Melo ran the pick and roll a lot more under Fisher than he has even under Hornacek and that the play became non-existent under Rambis, just as it has become non-existent since they re-focused on the Triangle at the all-star break.


I think perhaps perception is clouding your memory a bit. Melo under Rambis still passed the ball about the same amount as before. He did peak at 5.2 assists in January and Rambis took over in February where he averaged 4.9 assists. The rest of the way he was still at about 4 assists. The style may have shifted but Melo still gets the ball in a lot of the same spots regardless and pretty much the same opportunities exist for him to be a playmaker if he chooses to be. This year he's mostly chosen not to be. Melo's Assist % this year is 14.2% and last year it was 20.9%.

The idea that Melo chooses how the offense is set up and calls his own number on pick and rolls is completely ridiculous. What are there coaches for anyway?

Unless you have the splits about pick and roll percentage, I think you are just making stuff up from your own perception. Assists do not equal pick and rolls. But Melo's drop in assists from January and February through the rest of the season is definitely evidence something changed - Fisher coached over half the games in February - unless you have the pick and roll percentage by month, you're wasting my time.

The bottom line - Fisher had Melo placed at the point forward position in the Triangle, where Melo was actually becoming a very solid playmaker. This included pick and rolls. It led to some of the highest assist numbers of Melo's career for a few months. The assist percentage means Fisher was doing a damn good job as coach, not that Melo CHOSE to run pick and rolls. That's really one of the most absurd statements you've ever made, man.

First off, props to u for posting on late game. Agree with above post. Thing I keep saying is that last year we had ROLO. Although average, he was quite good at diving to basket and finishing around the hoop. If you ]ook at games in which Melo had large number of assists, if was mostly because of Rolo having big games. We just don't have that this year. KO likes the short elbow jumper. Noah can't finish and if he gets fouled he goes to line and sometimes shoot an air ball. KP prefers popping to 3pt. line. Think Willy is probably the best PnR guy. But like you said, we have not seen much of it. Specially with Willy.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
nixluva
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3/21/2017  4:51 PM
Screw all this nonsense! Melo is CHOOSING not to be more of a Playmaker and it has NOTHING to do with Hornacek. Anyone who thinks Hornacek is against Melo passing in a PnR or any other situation is LOST! Melo has the same damn Usage and in pretty much the same spots as always and in truth he as a Vet All Star can pretty much do what he wants as long as it's good basketball. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO NOT PLAYING TEAM BALL.
crzymdups
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3/21/2017  4:57 PM
nixluva wrote:Screw all this nonsense! Melo is CHOOSING not to be more of a Playmaker and it has NOTHING to do with Hornacek. Anyone who thinks Hornacek is against Melo passing in a PnR or any other situation is LOST! Melo has the same damn Usage and in pretty much the same spots as always and in truth he as a Vet All Star can pretty much do what he wants as long as it's good basketball. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO NOT PLAYING TEAM BALL.

It's a garbage theory about Melo CHOOSING because it takes all responsibility away from Hornacek and Phil. They're just sitting by idly while Melo CHOOSES to destroy their intricately set up offenses? What do you think is happening in practice with this team? Is Melo running practices now? Is Melo coaching the defense, too? Man, once we trade Melo all our problems will be solved!

Why did he choose to pass last year and choose to not pass this year? You honestly think it has nothing to do with the sets the team runs and the way they're spread on the floor? You honestly think Melo just woke up in October and was like "Eff it, this year it's all me." It's just ridiculous.

¿ △ ?
HofstraBBall
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3/21/2017  5:41 PM
nixluva wrote:Screw all this nonsense! Melo is CHOOSING not to be more of a Playmaker and it has NOTHING to do with Hornacek. Anyone who thinks Hornacek is against Melo passing in a PnR or any other situation is LOST! Melo has the same damn Usage and in pretty much the same spots as always and in truth he as a Vet All Star can pretty much do what he wants as long as it's good basketball. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO NOT PLAYING TEAM BALL.

Can you please stop with the bull****? How bout you put your money where your mouth is? When Melo goes, if we still suck you buy the guys that are against the system and the Triangle, seats to a Knick game and free drinks prior. Max, 4 of us. If we immediately turn things around without Melo, I will give you my 2 tickets, plus 2 that I will buy, to a game of your choice and free drinks prior. Everything else is just pure talk.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
smackeddog
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3/22/2017  2:00 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Screw all this nonsense! Melo is CHOOSING not to be more of a Playmaker and it has NOTHING to do with Hornacek. Anyone who thinks Hornacek is against Melo passing in a PnR or any other situation is LOST! Melo has the same damn Usage and in pretty much the same spots as always and in truth he as a Vet All Star can pretty much do what he wants as long as it's good basketball. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO NOT PLAYING TEAM BALL.

Can you please stop with the bull****? How bout you put your money where your mouth is? When Melo goes, if we still suck you buy the guys that are against the system and the Triangle, seats to a Knick game and free drinks prior. Max, 4 of us. If we immediately turn things around without Melo, I will give you my 2 tickets, plus 2 that I will buy, to a game of your choice and free drinks prior. Everything else is just pure talk.

And if we land top tier talent in the draft in the next few years, will you do likewise? (since you don't believe in tanking)

TankThread: Late night game in LA

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