crzymdups wrote:If it's not the offense, why did Phil insist on going back to the Triangle?

If it's okay to run parts of the Triangle, why was Fisher fired (at least in part) for not accepting Phil's requests to use more Triangle?

This year we're told Melo is selfish, ball hog, doesn't care about the team. Last year he was widely praised for moving the ball and making his teammates better, had a mediocre squad with less talent on the roster competing every night. What changed? Did Melo suddenly have a change of heart and decide to be selfish again?

Why is there a persisted thought that Fisher was fired - even if you argue "at least in part" - for not accepting Phil's requests to use more Triangle?

Are these Phil's words? Why is this even an argument? Fish was fired for plenty of reasons, and I thought Phil specifically mentioned communication and his ability to work with both the players and the front office.

knicks1248 wrote:If the system is so easy and player friendly why isn't any team in the league, d league ,college, over seaseas, re playing it, And I'm not talking aspects of it, im talking a 100% commitment like phils knicks are?

no on earth can answer this, they come back with, the spurs and GSW run aspects of it...

You keep asking stupid questions man. There are a lot of college teams that play it, you just don't who they are, so stop playing dumb and asking dumb questions.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

We're currently 6th or 7th in the Lottery.... what is your argument?

We've been trying to install the Triangle for three years and it hasn't been working with a variety of different players.

Melo and Rose plus a band ofI rookies, second year players and journeyman. The years before we were tanking. If you want to blame basketball on the reasons thus tan cab win then go ahead. The triangle is just a way to get organized. Just Like any other team. So bye Felicia. We suck. Thank our leadership in the roster and the inexperience.

We were tanking last year with Fisher? News to me. That's the thing, last year it was blamed on Fisher, this year it was blamed on Rose and Melo. Next year maybe KP. Never the unassailable Triangle? At what point are we allowed to question the Triangle?

Oh I forgot, people started blaming Afflalo after Fisher was fired. And here's the thing - all that blame starts with Phil. Phil is the one this year who made the narrative "it's all Melo's fault". Last year he blamed Fisher and his boy Rosen blamed Afflalo and told us how great Rambis was. Except the team sucked more than ever with Rambis.

I'll ask again, at what point do you question whether the Triangle might not work if you don't have a top 10 all-time player running it?

No offense works without talent to run it. If you don't have 3pt shooters or a PnR PG then Spread Offense doesn't really work either. In the end the Triangle as a system is still used just not in it's complete for in the NBA. There are college teams that run Triangle or parts of it. IT'S NOT THE OFFENSE!!! We need better talent PERIOD. We ran almost no Triangle for a good stretch of games and STILL we lost games. It's not about the Triangle.

Right now the MOST important thing is to try to upgrade the talent level on this team with another legit IMPACT player and more 2 WAY players.

If it's not the offense, why did Phil insist on going back to the Triangle?

If it's okay to run parts of the Triangle, why was Fisher fired (at least in part) for not accepting Phil's requests to use more Triangle?

This year we're told Melo is selfish, ball hog, doesn't care about the team. Last year he was widely praised for moving the ball and making his teammates better, had a mediocre squad with less talent on the roster competing every night. What changed? Did Melo suddenly have a change of heart and decide to be selfish again?

We were told? What changed? I guess it's whoever wants to tell the story. Melo is the same guy. Fisher was a douche. I don't want to back in what happened especially if we have to keep getting into detail. People have short memories.

Bottom line we didn't lose because of the triangle. Just like we weren't going to win playing the stroke my shlong offense that your favorite team runs... today we are looking at the lottery... next year we will too.... why do we need tho argue about stupid **** everyday? Looking forward we have the 2017 and 2018 draft.... I don't want to keep talking about management and ownership. When Phil's contract us up we can discuss that.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If the system is so easy and player friendly why isn't any team in the league, d league ,college, over seaseas, re playing it, And I'm not talking aspects of it, im talking a 100% commitment like phils knicks are?

no on earth can answer this, they come back with, the spurs and GSW run aspects of it...

You keep asking stupid questions man. There are a lot of college teams that play it, you just don't who they are, so stop playing dumb and asking dumb questions.

Stupid questions? So being the only team in the NBA who is asked to exclusively run it is "Lots"?
And we should expect a new roster, each year, to learn such a complex system? Laugh when people say its the personnel? We can all act like Phil and the Triangle are not laughed about throughout the NBA. But that will not change reality. We and Phil are viewed as a joke. Plain and simple.

Btw: Article on the Triangle. Everyone should note the personnel Phil won the 11 chips with.

http://grantland.com/features/chuck-klosterman-phil-jackson-tex-winter-death-triangle-offense/

It's serious cuz guys are talking about the triangle like outs a software program.... If it didn't have a name what would you complain about? We have terrible chemistry and Melo and Rose are losers. If you want to blame Phil and the way they want to get organized playing basketball that's on you.... truth is if the Knicks played the dick in tbe butt offense they still would be terrible. Melo and Rose are a bad fit for us.... i could deal with saying Phil shouldn't have signed Melo and never traded for Rose... but constantly taking about the offense like that's the problem sounds like a gay porn skit.

nixluva wrote:The Knicks Biggest problem is that they need better TALENT! PERIOD!!! Right now our best and most experienced players aren't good enough. Our best starters in terms of +/- this year have been our youngest and least experienced players!!! Not our VETS but our kids are better than our older vets. Despite those kids not really being fully developed yet.

It's silly to try and blame the offensive system. This game is mostly about talent on the floor and the makeup of the roster fitting together. The key to getting out of this rut is doing a better job of drafting, developing and signing the RIGHT TALENT.

That's my main question - if it's about the talent, then why switch to the triangle? Which incidentally makes the talent already here perform worse? The team is scoring 5ppg less since going back to the triangle after the all-star break.

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If the system is so easy and player friendly why isn't any team in the league, d league ,college, over seaseas, re playing it, And I'm not talking aspects of it, im talking a 100% commitment like phils knicks are?

no on earth can answer this, they come back with, the spurs and GSW run aspects of it...

You keep asking stupid questions man. There are a lot of college teams that play it, you just don't who they are, so stop playing dumb and asking dumb questions.

Stupid questions? So being the only team in the NBA who is asked to exclusively run it is "Lots"?
And we should expect a new roster, each year, to learn such a complex system? Laugh when people say its the personnel? We can all act like Phil and the Triangle are not laughed about throughout the NBA. But that will not change reality. We and Phil are viewed as a joke. Plain and simple.

Btw: Article on the Triangle. Everyone should note the personnel Phil won the 11 chips with.

http://grantland.com/features/chuck-klosterman-phil-jackson-tex-winter-death-triangle-offense/

It's serious cuz guys are talking about the triangle like outs a software program.... If it didn't have a name what would you complain about? We have terrible chemistry and Melo and Rose are losers. If you want to blame Phil and the way they want to get organized playing basketball that's on you.... truth is if the Knicks played the dick in tbe butt offense they still would be terrible. Melo and Rose are a bad fit for us.... i could deal with saying Phil shouldn't have signed Melo and never traded for Rose... but constantly taking about the offense like that's the problem sounds like a gay porn skit.

Will take your word for the gay porn thing. Thing is, Melo is gone soon and Rose was only here for one year (Phil brought him here) Agree that it's time to move on from both. Problem is, Melo and Rose have not made this organazation a laughing stock. They were just not good enough to bring us out of being one. You keep missing the point, your fighting for a system that NO ONE else plays for and that will probably not be here in two years. We will have wasted 5 years with Uncle Phil. KP has been thrown into a system that he will probably never play for again, once Phil is gone. Ask yourself if Phil has made us more respected or less? IMO, that's why he was really brought here for. Triangle or not, he has made this a very unattractive destination. If you think he has not contributed do the Dolan legacy of bad decisions, you are sadly mistaken.

HofstraBBall wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If the system is so easy and player friendly why isn't any team in the league, d league ,college, over seaseas, re playing it, And I'm not talking aspects of it, im talking a 100% commitment like phils knicks are?

no on earth can answer this, they come back with, the spurs and GSW run aspects of it...

You keep asking stupid questions man. There are a lot of college teams that play it, you just don't who they are, so stop playing dumb and asking dumb questions.

Stupid questions? So being the only team in the NBA who is asked to exclusively run it is "Lots"?
And we should expect a new roster, each year, to learn such a complex system? Laugh when people say its the personnel? We can all act like Phil and the Triangle are not laughed about throughout the NBA. But that will not change reality. We and Phil are viewed as a joke. Plain and simple.

Btw: Article on the Triangle. Everyone should note the personnel Phil won the 11 chips with.

http://grantland.com/features/chuck-klosterman-phil-jackson-tex-winter-death-triangle-offense/

It's serious cuz guys are talking about the triangle like outs a software program.... If it didn't have a name what would you complain about? We have terrible chemistry and Melo and Rose are losers. If you want to blame Phil and the way they want to get organized playing basketball that's on you.... truth is if the Knicks played the dick in tbe butt offense they still would be terrible. Melo and Rose are a bad fit for us.... i could deal with saying Phil shouldn't have signed Melo and never traded for Rose... but constantly taking about the offense like that's the problem sounds like a gay porn skit.

Will take your word for the gay porn thing. Thing is, Melo is gone soon and Rose was only here for one year (Phil brought him here) Agree that it's time to move on from both. Problem is, Melo and Rose have not made this organazation a laughing stock. They were just not good enough to bring us out of being one. You keep missing the point, your fighting for a system that NO ONE else plays for and that will probably not be here in two years. We will have wasted 5 years with Uncle Phil. KP has been thrown into a system that he will probably never play for again, once Phil is gone. Ask yourself if Phil has made us more respected or less? IMO, that's why he was really brought here for. Triangle or not, he has made this a very unattractive destination. If you think he has not contributed do the Dolan legacy of bad decisions, you are sadly mistaken.

Yep. Agreed.

What do you want to bet that when Melo leaves and Rose leaves, around this time next year Phil and Rosen will be quietly blaming Hornacek and KP for the Triangle not working?

I think Hornacek will be the next fall guy, but I could see KP getting some flak, too.

Really, every year, Phil chooses a different set of fall guys. First it was Shump and JR, then Fisher, now Melo and Rose, maybe it's time to blame the coach again next year.

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If the system is so easy and player friendly why isn't any team in the league, d league ,college, over seaseas, re playing it, And I'm not talking aspects of it, im talking a 100% commitment like phils knicks are?

no on earth can answer this, they come back with, the spurs and GSW run aspects of it...

You keep asking stupid questions man. There are a lot of college teams that play it, you just don't who they are, so stop playing dumb and asking dumb questions.

Stupid questions? So being the only team in the NBA who is asked to exclusively run it is "Lots"?
And we should expect a new roster, each year, to learn such a complex system? Laugh when people say its the personnel? We can all act like Phil and the Triangle are not laughed about throughout the NBA. But that will not change reality. We and Phil are viewed as a joke. Plain and simple.

Btw: Article on the Triangle. Everyone should note the personnel Phil won the 11 chips with.

http://grantland.com/features/chuck-klosterman-phil-jackson-tex-winter-death-triangle-offense/

It's serious cuz guys are talking about the triangle like outs a software program.... If it didn't have a name what would you complain about? We have terrible chemistry and Melo and Rose are losers. If you want to blame Phil and the way they want to get organized playing basketball that's on you.... truth is if the Knicks played the dick in tbe butt offense they still would be terrible. Melo and Rose are a bad fit for us.... i could deal with saying Phil shouldn't have signed Melo and never traded for Rose... but constantly taking about the offense like that's the problem sounds like a gay porn skit.

evey yr you will find a couple players on the roster and say they are the reason were bad, if its not rose, afflalo, amare, Tyson, The only person to blame is the person who put this sht together.

Its like I watching a Episode of BAR RESECUE and these owners are blaming the staff for the bar being 150k in the hole, but never wanted to take any responsibility. GMs get fired for putting together trash teams

We're not watching bar rescue.... that's the problem. Alot of fans like to watch bar rescue... They want to see the drama. They want to see a man yelling at other men. They want to see people broken down to nothing, then built back up to fit the status quo... They don't want to see a good story start from nothing to something. We never tried that in N.Y.. Phil tried to do both. He failed at one... but not the other. That story is still unfolding. I'm trying to enjoy that. I don't want to keep talking about the part that didn't work. It's a blip on the radar as far as I'm concerned. 5 years from now we won't care about Melo and Rose. We will remember the come up.... I don't want to miss it arguing about this garbage

nyknickzingis wrote:I don't think Phil was brought in to build a pick and roll team
He was brought in to build a team that runs a system and plays within it.

The main problem isn't the Triangle it's that we have players that don't fit which is Phil's fault. He put the together.

Rose is not a real point
Melo is on decline and plays the Jordan role that he is in over his head
KP is a talent but needs time and the ball to develop which he isn't getting much of
Noah gave us virtually nothing this year

That's the real issue - Phil hasn't brought in good enough players mainly vets through his trades and free agency moves.

People forget but this team was 3-6 early on running almost no Triangle.
They simply couldn't blend in and play together.

I feel Phil needs to abandon the vet strategy and go all in with youth. Almost all his young projects have looked good. Outside of Early, most of his picks and projects wind up looking good. In the Triangle no less.

KP - all star possible super star talent
Willy - starter talent maybe more top 5 rookie this year as a 2nd round pick
Thomas - D league talent that has become a reliable bench player
Gallo - Same as Thomas
Baker - Same as Lance and Gallo
Kuz - out of rotation now but definitely can play
Holiday - will likely get a nice big contract because he's proven to be good off the bench

Now where Phil has sucked

Melo - NTC. Horrible move giving him NTC. Better let him walk.
Rose - Gave up RoLo for him. Bad fit with Melo.
Noah - yuck contract plays same spot that KP and Willy need minutes in

The big contracted players are where Phil has really let down. 18 M to Noah. 22 M to Rose. 25 M to Melo. Melo is worth like 18, Rose like 15 and Noah 8. Plus they don't work well together. Bad moves by Phil.

Also jury out on Horny. Really nice coach on O, question his D and leadership.

I think Dolan brought in Phil because he was Phil. And Dolan is happy to keep Phil, because he keeps the spotlight off Dolan, unless Dolan gets riled up and makes a scene of arresting Oak or something.

I agree with your point about the draft pick situation... but at the same time Phil knew about that up front coming in. His stated plan when he got here was to install the Triangle among vets and teach them how to win, precisely because they had so few draft picks. He started weeding out guys he didn't think could play the Triangle - Chandler, Felton, Shumpert, JR, then Tim Hardaway (who in hindsight seems like he should be a good triangle fit, doesn't he?) - and we were told the 2015 cap room was when we were gonna get Triangle stars... we got Rolo and Afflalo and DWill... they were all gone within a year and really only Rolo could have been said to have improved in the Triangle. Then Phil goes all in on Rose and Noah - a low risk all in move, but an all-in move nonetheless. Still doesn't work.

We can blame Melo or Rose or whoever... but it's sounding more and more like Melo will accept a trade to LA next summer and Rose will be gone and we should have a top 7 pick in the draft. It'll be very interesting to see how next season goes. At least if it's another disaster, we'll have our pick.

Hey, I think we all agree we need to be bad for a while and get some high draft picks in here. Hopefully it's not so bad that it scares KP away. I have a real feeling that at the end of Phil's contract we're going to need to make a change to get KP to consider staying. I just don't see the Triangle clicking here. I don't think Hornacek is the guy to do it - he's already shown it's his preference NOT to run it. And it's not like there's really time to cultivate another coach, unless we go back to Rambis... in which case... yeesh.