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Opposing players have told Knicks players Triangle is predictable and one of the easiest defensive assignments in the league.
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nyknickzingis
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3/19/2017  9:52 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm still waiting for OP to answer about where he got that Phil was trading the 2018 picks in the Teague or other trade talks when Ian Begley (same source used for this thread) contradicted it
Where was that posted?

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=56113&page=3

In that thread - It's stated as a matter of fact that Phil was willing to trade the 2018 pick in trade talk, when Ian Begley reported the exact opposite

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CrushAlot
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3/19/2017  10:51 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm still waiting for OP to answer about where he got that Phil was trading the 2018 picks in the Teague or other trade talks when Ian Begley (same source used for this thread) contradicted it
Where was that posted?

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=56113&page=3

In that thread - It's stated as a matter of fact that Phil was willing to trade the 2018 pick in trade talk, when Ian Begley reported the exact opposite

Ok. I found it. Begley didn't report the exact opposite. He reported that the Knicks were in discussion with the hawks about Teague. Begley said they could offer their 2018 pick. I can't find anything that says he contradicted it. Was that an after the deadline report? This is what I found from Begley. It doesn't confirm or deny Phil would move the pick for Teague.
New York could offer its current starting point guard, Jose Calderon, who is under contract through the 2016-17 season at an average of $7.6 million per season. That may be unappealing to Atlanta.

The Knicks could also offer second-year guard Langston Galloway or rookie guard Jerian Grant, but Atlanta dealt the rights to Grant to the Knicks on draft night in exchange for Tim Hardaway Jr.

If the Knicks want to include a first-round pick in a trade, their earliest trade-eligible pick is in 2018. New York also has a glut of big men, so Kevin Seraphin and Kyle O’Quinn may be available.


http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/63992/sources-knicks-talk-teague-trade-with-atl
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
nyknickzingis
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3/19/2017  10:56 PM
Read the entire thread
I linked an article that clearly has a report from Begley that says Phil told people no 2018 draft pick on the table.
crzymdups
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3/20/2017  12:49 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm still waiting for OP to answer about where he got that Phil was trading the 2018 picks in the Teague or other trade talks when Ian Begley (same source used for this thread) contradicted it

I love when people have nothing and they're reduced to nitpicking. It was a Berman or Isola story from around last year's deadline when the Knicks were trying to get Teague. Rumor was they were thinking about including the 2018 pick to sweeten the offer, but you would just say it was made up news because it was "nba sources" or some BS, so why bother.

Whether or not Phil offered the 2018 pick in trades as rumored... why does he still run the Triangle? Why would he even want a PG like Teague for the Triangle last season? Why are we running the Triangle?

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crzymdups
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3/20/2017  12:50 AM
Vmart wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
Vmart wrote:If it is so predictable why aren't the Knicks having problems scoring. They seem to be doing that well. If anything is predictable about the Knicks it is that they will give less than max effort on the defensive side.

If the offense isn't the problem, why did Phil go back to the triangle in the first place? They were scoring more ppg before going back to the triangle.

Before the allstar break they were scoring 105ppg

Since the allstar break they're scoring 100.6ppg

So... Why'd they go back to the triangle if defense was the problem?

Phil was saying that if the triangle is used properly the team defense will also improve. Players will have a much better understanding of the offense as they know where the shots will come from and it helps players to react to get back in defense. The proper execution leads to a better defensive posture.

Well to go back to the quote that started this thread - apparently not only will the Knicks know where shots are coming from, but so do their opponents. And that's a problem that has shaved 5ppg off our scoring average.

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nyknickzingis
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3/20/2017  7:16 AM
crzymdups wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm still waiting for OP to answer about where he got that Phil was trading the 2018 picks in the Teague or other trade talks when Ian Begley (same source used for this thread) contradicted it

I love when people have nothing and they're reduced to nitpicking. It was a Berman or Isola story from around last year's deadline when the Knicks were trying to get Teague. Rumor was they were thinking about including the 2018 pick to sweeten the offer, but you would just say it was made up news because it was "nba sources" or some BS, so why bother.

Whether or not Phil offered the 2018 pick in trades as rumored... why does he still run the Triangle? Why would he even want a PG like Teague for the Triangle last season? Why are we running the Triangle?

You're still deflecting
There was a report clear cut and dry from Begley after the trade deadline that Phil would not include the 2018 pick which is now looking likely to be a lottery pick.

As for the triangle, of course it is a problem because our talent does not run it well. Second unit runs it much better. Of course veterans on the team don't like it while younger players like KP and Willy like it. Younger players are still developing their games and habits. Vets are who they are.

EnySpree
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3/20/2017  7:30 AM
I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔
You know why I'm here....
nyknickzingis
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3/20/2017  7:42 AM
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

And the funny thing is that the losing streak and losing was going on well before the Triangle began coming back at a high dose. At the start of the season the team ran the Triangle just a few times a quarter, usually after free throws or a dead ball. Most of the rest of the time it was other sets. The team began poorly at 3-6. That was NOT Triangle. They then had a good run to make it 14-10. Then the downhilll play began. Mostly it was poor defense than offense. Offense our main problem was selfish play. By Rose and Melo. Too much 1 on 1. Not enough guys getting back on defense. Not enough team speed. Anyway by the time Phil told Horny to run more Triangle so he could evaluate the players better, the team was what 23-33? They were already throwing the season down the tubes with losing 23 of their previous 32 games. They were already playing .300 ball.

What I've seen is they play .300 ball with the Triangle and .300 ball without Triangle.
But one change I see is with the Triangle Willy, KP, OQuinn and guards like Lee, Baker, Randle get the ball more and do better.

I just want to see this team for a season free of Melo/Rose with some young players who buy in and commit to the coaching staff. Then I can evaluate the coaching staff much better as well as players like KP, Willy.

HofstraBBall
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3/20/2017  9:26 AM
crzymdups wrote:
Vmart wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
Vmart wrote:If it is so predictable why aren't the Knicks having problems scoring. They seem to be doing that well. If anything is predictable about the Knicks it is that they will give less than max effort on the defensive side.

If the offense isn't the problem, why did Phil go back to the triangle in the first place? They were scoring more ppg before going back to the triangle.

Before the allstar break they were scoring 105ppg

Since the allstar break they're scoring 100.6ppg

So... Why'd they go back to the triangle if defense was the problem?

Phil was saying that if the triangle is used properly the team defense will also improve. Players will have a much better understanding of the offense as they know where the shots will come from and it helps players to react to get back in defense. The proper execution leads to a better defensive posture.

Well to go back to the quote that started this thread - apparently not only will the Knicks know where shots are coming from, but so do their opponents. And that's a problem that has shaved 5ppg off our scoring average.

Agree. What some on here don't get is that Dolan has continued to hurt us by bringing in "a name"
to magically save us. He was not smart enough to realize that the guy he chose had ideas that would further isolate us. The Triangle just represents another crazy self imposed type of isolation, as no one else runs it, that this organazation has created. No matter what anyone on here may say, we are looked upon, by most, as a dysfunctional organazation, that has an antiquated system. Which a stubborn old man refuses to give up on. This is a place which only the stragglers of the NBA, looking for a pay check, will want to play for. IMO, Phil was not brought here to put in an offensive scheme nor to get lucky with some draft picks. He was brought here to "Get us OFF the ISLAND of DYSFUNCTION! Instead, we are the definition of dysfunction.

I am still waiting for someone to answer a couple of questions I brought up months ago... WHAT WILL PEOPLE SAY IF WE WASTED 5 YEARS TEACHING A SYSTEM NO ONE ELSE IN NBA PLAYS? How does that affect our young players development?

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
crzymdups
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3/20/2017  10:31 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm still waiting for OP to answer about where he got that Phil was trading the 2018 picks in the Teague or other trade talks when Ian Begley (same source used for this thread) contradicted it

I love when people have nothing and they're reduced to nitpicking. It was a Berman or Isola story from around last year's deadline when the Knicks were trying to get Teague. Rumor was they were thinking about including the 2018 pick to sweeten the offer, but you would just say it was made up news because it was "nba sources" or some BS, so why bother.

Whether or not Phil offered the 2018 pick in trades as rumored... why does he still run the Triangle? Why would he even want a PG like Teague for the Triangle last season? Why are we running the Triangle?

You're still deflecting
There was a report clear cut and dry from Begley after the trade deadline that Phil would not include the 2018 pick which is now looking likely to be a lottery pick.

As for the triangle, of course it is a problem because our talent does not run it well. Second unit runs it much better. Of course veterans on the team don't like it while younger players like KP and Willy like it. Younger players are still developing their games and habits. Vets are who they are.

I'm deflecting? You're bringing up a Begly quote I misread from another thread entirely to deflect talking about the Begley quote in this thread. lmao.

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crzymdups
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3/20/2017  10:32 AM
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

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nixluva
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3/20/2017  11:13 AM
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

Seems to me the issue is the starters. Most of the underperforming is with Melo and Rose who are both horrible in +/- for this team. No winning team has such poorly performing lead players. This has nothing to do with the Triangle. They stunk running Spread PnR too.

nyknickzingis
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3/20/2017  11:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/20/2017  11:21 AM
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

He's saying that no one questions their offense it's the talent that isn't working or not good enough
Ever since Phil came all people focus on is the Triangle
They should focus more on the lack of good players Phil got

In his time the best player he got outside of draft picks is Derrick Rose, who has not fit in with Melo at all. Noah, Lopez, Lee, Thomas etc all nice/solid role players (I think Noah will be better next year) but in terms of big moves, impact moves the best move he has made outside of drafting is Rose and Rose sucks with Melo. So that's where in my opinion you are spot on about Phil.

He neither has us getting top level draft picks or made a big move that worked out around Melo.

The only defense he has was with 1 draft pick in 3 years hard to rebuild properly so he had to at least try to win around Melo which he did a really bad job in. And I think he would have rebuilt properly but there was Melo being a must to re-sign and then having one pick in 3 years. Would have been a very different picture for Phil had he been able to draft in 2014 and 2016.

crzymdups
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3/20/2017  11:29 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

He's saying that no one questions their offense it's the talent that isn't working or not good enough
Ever since Phil came all people focus on is the Triangle
They should focus more on the lack of good players Phil got

In his time the best player he got outside of draft picks is Derrick Rose, who has not fit in with Melo at all. Noah, Lopez, Lee, Thomas etc all nice/solid role players (I think Noah will be better next year) but in terms of big moves, impact moves the best move he has made outside of drafting is Rose and Rose sucks with Melo. So that's where in my opinion you are spot on about Phil.

He neither has us getting top level draft picks or made a big move that worked out around Melo.

The only defense he has was with 1 draft pick in 3 years hard to rebuild properly so he had to at least try to win around Melo which he did a really bad job in. And I think he would have rebuilt properly but there was Melo being a must to re-sign and then having one pick in 3 years. Would have been a very different picture for Phil had he been able to draft in 2014 and 2016.

Mostly agree.

I would say no one was focusing on the Triangle until Phil literally told the team to re-focus on the Triangle after the all-star break.

The draft pick issue is real - Phil got screwed there. I agree with you 100% there.

But, yeah, to me the issue is that I believe he talked about getting Triangle type players in Free agency (or trades)... and it just doesn't seem like that's happened.

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EnySpree
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3/20/2017  11:33 AM
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

We're currently 6th or 7th in the Lottery.... what is your argument?

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SupremeCommander
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3/20/2017  11:38 AM
is it the triangle that is predictable, is it the personnel, or is it the lack of execution?
Jimmy D w/o a straight shot said: In two hours, [Jackson] taught me basketball, and I learned I know nothing about basketball
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3/20/2017  11:43 AM
EnySpree wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

We're currently 6th or 7th in the Lottery.... what is your argument?

We've been trying to install the Triangle for three years and it hasn't been working with a variety of different players.

¿ △ ?
EnySpree
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3/20/2017  11:55 AM
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

We're currently 6th or 7th in the Lottery.... what is your argument?

We've been trying to install the Triangle for three years and it hasn't been working with a variety of different players.


Melo and Rose plus a band ofI rookies, second year players and journeyman. The years before we were tanking. If you want to blame basketball on the reasons thus tan cab win then go ahead. The triangle is just a way to get organized. Just Like any other team. So bye Felicia. We suck. Thank our leadership in the roster and the inexperience.
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crzymdups
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3/20/2017  11:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/20/2017  12:01 PM
EnySpree wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I wonder what opposing players are saying about the Lakers, Philly, Minnesota and Brooklyn? I wonder how easy it is to guard them 🤔

So... comparing us to basically four of the worst teams in the league? That's the defense of the Triangle? It makes us just as bad as them? Brooklyn just beat the crap out of us twice in 5 days, games we played our starters 35min+.

We're currently 6th or 7th in the Lottery.... what is your argument?

We've been trying to install the Triangle for three years and it hasn't been working with a variety of different players.


Melo and Rose plus a band ofI rookies, second year players and journeyman. The years before we were tanking. If you want to blame basketball on the reasons thus tan cab win then go ahead. The triangle is just a way to get organized. Just Like any other team. So bye Felicia. We suck. Thank our leadership in the roster and the inexperience.

We were tanking last year with Fisher? News to me. That's the thing, last year it was blamed on Fisher, this year it was blamed on Rose and Melo. Next year maybe KP. Never the unassailable Triangle? At what point are we allowed to question the Triangle?

Oh I forgot, people started blaming Afflalo after Fisher was fired. And here's the thing - all that blame starts with Phil. Phil is the one this year who made the narrative "it's all Melo's fault". Last year he blamed Fisher and his boy Rosen blamed Afflalo and told us how great Rambis was. Except the team sucked more than ever with Rambis.

I'll ask again, at what point do you question whether the Triangle might not work if you don't have a top 10 all-time player running it?

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martin
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3/20/2017  12:42 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:is it the triangle that is predictable, is it the personnel, or is it the lack of execution?

Exactly. Probably combo of all 3

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Opposing players have told Knicks players Triangle is predictable and one of the easiest defensive assignments in the league.

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