The pro Rose Moment to open our minds a second.....
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nyknickzingis
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3/20/2017  8:13 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm not a Rose fan but if all he gets is $15M per and a 2 or 3 year deal, one should consider it.

No, we shouldn't at all. Rose is terrible and nothing he's done this year shows anything else. The only thing he has is a good first step; he doesn't finish well, he's a terrible distributor, a terrible shooter, and a terrible defender. And, he clearly hurting KP's development.


Yeah, OMG that's a terrible way to spend $15 mil per IMO. I'm not sure I'd want him back under any circumstances. But if he gets rejected by all other teams and is willing to come here for like $5 mil per, that's something I'd consider. I'm fine with losing him for nothing though.

I see it as a sign and trade him down the road contract. Not to lose an asset for nothing.
I wonder if Rose would add a 3 point shot over the summer. He is a hard worker. He could work exclusively on a 3 ball this summer and come into the next season with a better 3 ball. That's the way to go for him.

But man that defense. Just awful. No ledaership. Yeah, I pass. I want some young guys who will play with passion and who will adopt the coaching philosiphy and mindset. Rose needs to go. I wish it worked out, but what a disasterous pairing.

AUTOADVERT
Nalod
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3/20/2017  8:41 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:In not that impressionable that one article can change my mind and its not like I'm preaching "Tolerance".


Imagine you had a daughter, who was a young adult, and she brought home a boy she was clearly thinking about marrying.

Kid didn't bring a small gesture gift, didn't have a firm handshake, didn't look you in the eye, was rude, didn't shine his shoes, had poor table manners, chewed with his mouth open, wiped his mouth on his sleeve, licked his plate and was generally a douchebag with no social grace.

If the guy just came from the jungle, like in a movie. Well, OK, he's ignorant.

But if the guy grew up in a civilized society, it just means he just doesn't give a f**k.

If Steve Novak can't play defense, it's because Novak has no ability to play NBA average level defense. You could stick a gun to his head and it's not within his actual ability.

Derrick Rose has the ability to play real team ball and be a true team player. He just doesn't care. He's the douchebag that will lick his plate at your dinner table because he doesn't care about anything other than himself. You want your daughter to "marry" that worthless POS?

So why should the Knicks "marry" into a player like this?

Rose just decided to not show up for a game. He just decided, f**k it, I'm not going to be there. What does that say when you invite that kind of scum back to dinner again?

It says

- It's cool to disrespect me
- I have no standards
- Please abuse me all you want
- You can f**k my daughter and impregnate her and not have any accountability at all
- The problem must be with me, not with you, nothing is ever your fault

This is maybe the only area where those POS arrogant insufferable Boston fans have a point. You show up to dinner and you put your feet up on their dinner table, you are going to get both barrels of a shotgun emptied into your face.

Resigning Derrick Rose is about the same as cooking a guy a steak after he raped your daughter and burned your house down and took a big fat **** on your face.

If Rose deserved to wear a Knicks jersey, he would have acted like it. If he wanted to wear a Knicks jersey, he would have treated it with dignity, honor and respect, win or lose.

Never listen to what people say, who cares what Rose says in an interview, watch what they do. Watching what people do is all the truth you'll ever need.

You definitely made your point!

Anger sells, don't buy!
Bonn1997
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3/20/2017  9:33 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm not a Rose fan but if all he gets is $15M per and a 2 or 3 year deal, one should consider it.

No, we shouldn't at all. Rose is terrible and nothing he's done this year shows anything else. The only thing he has is a good first step; he doesn't finish well, he's a terrible distributor, a terrible shooter, and a terrible defender. And, he clearly hurting KP's development.


Yeah, OMG that's a terrible way to spend $15 mil per IMO. I'm not sure I'd want him back under any circumstances. But if he gets rejected by all other teams and is willing to come here for like $5 mil per, that's something I'd consider. I'm fine with losing him for nothing though.

I see it as a sign and trade him down the road contract. Not to lose an asset for nothing.
I wonder if Rose would add a 3 point shot over the summer. He is a hard worker. He could work exclusively on a 3 ball this summer and come into the next season with a better 3 ball. That's the way to go for him.

But man that defense. Just awful. No ledaership. Yeah, I pass. I want some young guys who will play with passion and who will adopt the coaching philosiphy and mindset. Rose needs to go. I wish it worked out, but what a disasterous pairing.


But is he an asset or a liability? Technically, I'd say there's no such thing as losing a player for nothing (even though I used that phrase earlier). You're freeing up cap space, and in this case an 8 figure amount per year.
knicks1248
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3/20/2017  9:59 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/20/2017  10:02 AM
Are you sure it's rose defense the problem, it was never even a real issue when he played on the bulls, especially on a bulls team that was tops in every defense category. We have some defensive players on this team that looked well below their norm this yr.

We have been a bad defense team even when we have defense players. Yes rose can fight over more screens, but that doesn't negate all the 3's we give up from the opposing team bigs. Just in the last 4 losses


Antetokempo & Monroe- 49 points
Drummond & T Harris- 52 points
hollis j, lopez, booker-52 points
Holiis & Lopez 45 points


All were well above season average for these guys, so when you start pointing to rose defense has a major issue, #s don't lie, opposing guards don't light us up, like their fwds and centers.

I would have been move rose to the sg after xmas, thats the coaching staff fault not making any adjustments

ES
nixluva
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3/20/2017  11:20 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Are you sure it's rose defense the problem, it was never even a real issue when he played on the bulls, especially on a bulls team that was tops in every defense category. We have some defensive players on this team that looked well below their norm this yr.

We have been a bad defense team even when we have defense players. Yes rose can fight over more screens, but that doesn't negate all the 3's we give up from the opposing team bigs. Just in the last 4 losses


Antetokempo & Monroe- 49 points
Drummond & T Harris- 52 points
hollis j, lopez, booker-52 points
Holiis & Lopez 45 points


All were well above season average for these guys, so when you start pointing to rose defense has a major issue, #s don't lie, opposing guards don't light us up, like their fwds and centers.

I would have been move rose to the sg after xmas, thats the coaching staff fault not making any adjustments

Breakdowns on the perimeter weaken the entire defense but also Rose isn't alone in playing poor defense. Since it's a team function we have very few solid defensive lineups. The poorest defenders individually and in a team concept tend to be our starters. The solution would seem to be getting better starters!

BigRedDog
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3/20/2017  11:59 AM
I will bet Rose gets $15-20 million a yr from some team. Offensively he looks great, at least driving to the rim. He has been healthy. Some team is going to figure its the Knicks that suck that brought down Rose and will figure in their team concept Rose will thrive. In Rose's defense he probably sucked on defense as badly with Chicago but with a good team defense behind him it was minimized.
Moonangie
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3/20/2017  12:10 PM
Vmart wrote:The Knicks cannot keep overlooking the importance of defense. While the team is scoring more their defense has suffered. Rose doesn't provide the balance needed to succeed. Same with Melo can't keep this trend going continuously.

I hope Phil lets Rose walk gives the ball to Randle and not look back. Names do not always equate to winning. As for Melo hope Phil can get him moved need to get athletic there are players in this draft that will and can develop to be good players. Let's hope Phil can do this for the future of the franchise.

+1. Rose is such a liability on D that it doesn't matter how high he can raise is PPG. It's over for him here, unless Jax makes a real blunder and resigns him. Somehow, I don't think that's likely.

I trust Phil to do the right moves this summer. Let's see how it shakes out

Moonangie
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3/20/2017  12:16 PM
LivingLegend wrote:I'm no fan of Rose but if Melo blesses us by leaving -- Rose could make some sense on a short low-cost deal just in terms of having someone around who can get to the basket.

I tend to think a large portion of our problem this year was the Melo/Rose combo.

Ideally we could sign-trade Rose to Minny for Rubio and clear the ball dominant...don't want to run triangle players off the squad completely.

If it's in the $10-12mil range to come off the bench as a primary scorer, I'd definitely do that. His defensive liability would be reduced (i.e., against other bench players) and he has demonstrated a still profound ability to get to the rim in traffic and finish, something that's rare in a bench PG.

But the market will determine if that's feasible. If so, it's a no-brainer. Getting high-end scoring talent (regardless of defense) on a cheap short-term deal is worth it.

knicks1248
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3/20/2017  12:41 PM
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Are you sure it's rose defense the problem, it was never even a real issue when he played on the bulls, especially on a bulls team that was tops in every defense category. We have some defensive players on this team that looked well below their norm this yr.

We have been a bad defense team even when we have defense players. Yes rose can fight over more screens, but that doesn't negate all the 3's we give up from the opposing team bigs. Just in the last 4 losses


Antetokempo & Monroe- 49 points
Drummond & T Harris- 52 points
hollis j, lopez, booker-52 points
Holiis & Lopez 45 points


All were well above season average for these guys, so when you start pointing to rose defense has a major issue, #s don't lie, opposing guards don't light us up, like their fwds and centers.

I would have been move rose to the sg after xmas, thats the coaching staff fault not making any adjustments

Breakdowns on the perimeter weaken the entire defense but also Rose isn't alone in playing poor defense. Since it's a team function we have very few solid defensive lineups. The poorest defenders individually and in a team concept tend to be our starters. The solution would seem to be getting better starters!

What adjust have we made in the rotation, and from a talent stand point, the starters stack up against most in the league. The chemistry is the major issues, and that because we have a difficult system

ES
knicks1248
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3/20/2017  12:44 PM
Moonangie wrote:
Vmart wrote:The Knicks cannot keep overlooking the importance of defense. While the team is scoring more their defense has suffered. Rose doesn't provide the balance needed to succeed. Same with Melo can't keep this trend going continuously.

I hope Phil lets Rose walk gives the ball to Randle and not look back. Names do not always equate to winning. As for Melo hope Phil can get him moved need to get athletic there are players in this draft that will and can develop to be good players. Let's hope Phil can do this for the future of the franchise.

+1. Rose is such a liability on D that it doesn't matter how high he can raise is PPG. It's over for him here, unless Jax makes a real blunder and resigns him. Somehow, I don't think that's likely.

I trust Phil to do the right moves this summer. Let's see how it shakes out

Don't you suppose to earn trust? would you trust a woman that cheated on you 3 straight times.

ES
crzymdups
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3/20/2017  12:48 PM
I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.

#FreeWilly
fishmike
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3/20/2017  1:23 PM
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

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knicks1248
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3/20/2017  1:58 PM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that

ES
fishmike
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3/20/2017  2:45 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that

you should agree. I know what the phuck Im talking about.
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MS
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3/20/2017  3:54 PM
Stay away at all costs.

He's not a winning player. He can't lead, doesn't defend, doesn't make the game easier for any of his teammates. And if it's not going his way he's ready to sulk. Can't take a chance on a guy with an injury history. Noah already cost us a max free agent slot, can't allow it to happen with Rose.

Nalod
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3/20/2017  5:28 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that

What is so unusual for a player to:

Play off the ball well.
Make good cuts.
Shoot from the outside.

What is so mystical about the triangle that there are no players who can do this?

I don't even think you need a pg. Phils teams had some, but they could shoot a long ball. You do need a guy who can handle a full court press from time to time.
Craig Hodges could shoot, not a great PG. BJ armstrong? Kerr? Paxton?
These were PHils pg's in Chicago.
He had Fish in LA.
Damn that Phil who keeps trying to build around an ambitious system!!!

Anger sells, don't buy!
CrushAlot
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3/20/2017  8:02 PM
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that

What is so unusual for a player to:

Play off the ball well.
Make good cuts.
Shoot from the outside.

What is so mystical about the triangle that there are no players who can do this?

I don't even think you need a pg. Phils teams had some, but they could shoot a long ball. You do need a guy who can handle a full court press from time to time.
Craig Hodges could shoot, not a great PG. BJ armstrong? Kerr? Paxton?
These were PHils pg's in Chicago.
He had Fish in LA.
Damn that Phil who keeps trying to build around an ambitious system!!!

I guess start with the top or second best two guard of all time, add one or two hofs and then get role players that fit with them.
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
Nalod
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3/20/2017  10:44 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that

What is so unusual for a player to:

Play off the ball well.
Make good cuts.
Shoot from the outside.

What is so mystical about the triangle that there are no players who can do this?

I don't even think you need a pg. Phils teams had some, but they could shoot a long ball. You do need a guy who can handle a full court press from time to time.
Craig Hodges could shoot, not a great PG. BJ armstrong? Kerr? Paxton?
These were PHils pg's in Chicago.
He had Fish in LA.
Damn that Phil who keeps trying to build around an ambitious system!!!

I guess start with the top or second best two guard of all time, add one or two hofs and then get role players that fit with them.

Thats right, But he was not GOAT until he got Triangle! Look it up. Jordan was a great scoring guard with attitude. Kobe 3 years punk Jordan wannabe and very hard to coach.
Yes, great coaches need great players to run their system. Lots of teams over the years had great players and not win. They get to blame the coach. AKA, Gary Payton/Sean Kemp great Sonics team and George Karl. Utah did well with Sloan, but could not beat Bulls. Long list in history.

But never give Phil due being the all time winningist coach. Not on your agenda!

Anger sells, don't buy!
crzymdups
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3/20/2017  10:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/20/2017  10:59 PM
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.


he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that

What is so unusual for a player to:

Play off the ball well.
Make good cuts.
Shoot from the outside.

What is so mystical about the triangle that there are no players who can do this?

I don't even think you need a pg. Phils teams had some, but they could shoot a long ball. You do need a guy who can handle a full court press from time to time.
Craig Hodges could shoot, not a great PG. BJ armstrong? Kerr? Paxton?
These were PHils pg's in Chicago.
He had Fish in LA.
Damn that Phil who keeps trying to build around an ambitious system!!!

I guess start with the top or second best two guard of all time, add one or two hofs and then get role players that fit with them.

Thats right, But he was not GOAT until he got Triangle! Look it up. Jordan was a great scoring guard with attitude. Kobe 3 years punk Jordan wannabe and very hard to coach.
Yes, great coaches need great players to run their system. Lots of teams over the years had great players and not win. They get to blame the coach. AKA, Gary Payton/Sean Kemp great Sonics team and George Karl. Utah did well with Sloan, but could not beat Bulls. Long list in history.

But never give Phil due being the all time winningist coach. Not on your agenda!

Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaged 35ppg and won Defensive Player of the Year. The next year he averaged 33ppg 8apg 8rpg and hit "The Shot" over Craig Ehlo in the playoffs that year and the Bulls made the Eastern Conference finals. The Bulls couldn't get past the Pistons during those years who had the infamous "Jordan Rules" which were basically beat the crap out of MJ. Phil was named head ooach in 89-90 season and they still lost to the Pistons.

I'd actually be curious to hear more about the implementation of the Triangle in Chicago. But make no mistake, Jordan was already a great player when Phil Jackson was named head coach in Chicago.

Shaq was, too. Phil definitely oversaw the development of Pippen and Kobe into great players.


In terms of why the Triangle doesn't take hold in today's game - I actually wonder if the AAU bball combined with guys usually going one and done in college has something to do with it. Guys aren't learning the fundamentals - they're learning that you have to score to get ahead and not how to be a team. Regardless... you can either accept that reality or you can shake your fist at the clouds. Sometimes success is about adapting to realities and making the best of that. Often times it's about seeing trends forming on the horizon and getting out ahead of them, as the Warriors did by being slightly ahead of the curve with the three point explosion throughout the league.

#FreeWilly
CrushAlot
Posts: 52972
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3/20/2017  11:00 PM
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think it'd be possible to design an offensive system where Rose could have a plus contribution. If we're sticking with the Triangle, I'm not sure I see it working.

Also, I've been really disappointed at what bad court vision he has for passing. He just rarely looks to pass. He's found Willy a few times on the pick and roll, but otherwise, he barely moves the ball. He clearly doesn't understand the Triangle and would be better in a pick and roll offense.

That said, I had no idea he'd be so lethargic and terrible on D. It's like he has no bball IQ for defense, or just doesn't give a damn. I've seen so many plays where he starts to close out on a shooter, then seems to realize it's not his man, so he literally just stops closing out.

His complete lack of effort on D and the AWOL incident would make me extremely nervous about re-signing him. I'd prefer to just move on.

he's not a system guy, he's not a guy who makes other's better. He was very good being the only scorer on a team full of guys set up to defend and play roles. His prior MVP success is similar to Iverson, who essentially had a team tailored around his scoring. Considering how good Rose was it was an understandable direction to take the team on. Now for a team adding Rose? No... I am hearing Rondo type offers.. 2 years and $35mm give or take.

There are several roles Rose would look great in, none of them make sense for the Knicks. Including a bench scorer... Is Rose resigning here to be a bench scorer? No. Its going to have to be one of those "just move on" scenarios. A S&T would be great if we can get something back. Not holding my breath.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just don't see a whole lot of better options, even the PG's in the draft, like none of them are playing in anything close to a triangle offense. you can't just throw any talented player in this system and think it's going to wrk, clearly this yr was evident of that
What is so unusual for a player to:

Play off the ball well.
Make good cuts.
Shoot from the outside.

What is so mystical about the triangle that there are no players who can do this?

I don't even think you need a pg. Phils teams had some, but they could shoot a long ball. You do need a guy who can handle a full court press from time to time.
Craig Hodges could shoot, not a great PG. BJ armstrong? Kerr? Paxton?
These were PHils pg's in Chicago.
He had Fish in LA.
Damn that Phil who keeps trying to build around an ambitious system!!!

I guess start with the top or second best two guard of all time, add one or two hofs and then get role players that fit with them.
Thats right, But he was not GOAT until he got Triangle! Look it up. Jordan was a great scoring guard with attitude. Kobe 3 years punk Jordan wannabe and very hard to coach.
Yes, great coaches need great players to run their system. Lots of teams over the years had great players and not win. They get to blame the coach. AKA, Gary Payton/Sean Kemp great Sonics team and George Karl. Utah did well with Sloan, but could not beat Bulls. Long list in history.

But never give Phil due being the all time winningist coach. Not on your agenda!

I have no issue with Phil's coaching record. I wish he would coach the Knicks. I think he has been a really bad executive.
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
The pro Rose Moment to open our minds a second.....

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