HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:All talk is about improving offence which is already good enough.
Defense is the issue and both Melo and Rose are very bad at it.
Without defense KP no-KP this team will never be good.
Knicks need 2-way defensive minded players around KP and both Melo and Rose are not a solution.

You have to stop saying general, unbacked, opinion based ****. Can you tell me last nights +/- for Rose and Melo? KP's and rotations without them? And what was the Suns shooting % with them on? With them off? Clue, you dont know what you are saying.

You can find this info in many threads here. It was one with video posted breaking it up.
But there is no need for in-depth analysts if you watching the game.
Rose has no clue on defense, cannot stay with his man, messing up assignments, helping to wrong man, cannot defend simple pick-an-roll.
Melo is just plain lazy, his man scores at will, slow defending any SF, and get pushed around by PFs.
His running 3th and missed shots after ISO lead to fats breaks. He is passing to oblivion a lot and take responsibilities of PG when it is no need for this.
At times he looks like dumbest player on the court.

Your claim was that we need defense. And that Melo and Rose are the biggest factors for our bad defense. Yet stats that point to the contrary or the fact that when they are off, we are actually worse, you ignore. I get it. Makes sense. At least to you. Does Melo always get back? No. Is our defense bad because of just him? Stats say no. But yeah, your blanket statements are more reliable. And Btw, let's do a defensive video breakdown of any player on the team that has played 35+ minutes. I'm sure we won't find any lapses.

We do not have good defenders for various reasons.
A lot of the team are young and nave no NBA experience.
They need to learn and can improve.
Some already show some signs of being good defenders (KQ, KP, Hernangomez, Baker). Even Kuz can get better.
Noah and Holiday are OK defenders so is Lee. Thomas and Plumle are good defenders too. Even Sasha can bring it sometimes.
Our problem are Melo, Rose, Jennings (he at least get steals and can run with his man when he has no brain farts and not severely over-matched physically.)
This not some eye opening sacred knowledge.
EVERYONE around NBA know this. Team need specialists and system adjustment to cover up for Melo and Rose deficiencies.
Good teams can handle this. Team in the beginning of rebuilding process of course cannot.

arkrud wrote:Team need specialists and system adjustment to cover up for Melo and Rose deficiencies.
Good teams can handle this. Team in the beginning of rebuilding process of course cannot.

It's a salary cap problem. I've said this before, Melo carries too large a cap number to not play defense.

Perimeter defense costs money. Rim protection costs money. There is a finite amount of money a team can spend in any given season. Noah, Rose and Melo chew up a ton of cap space. To get better, you need help, to get help, you need assets and cap space/cap flexibility.

You might be able to hide a Noah alone ( long bad contract, injury prone)

You might be able to hide a Melo alone ( zero on defense by choice)

You might be able to hide Rose alone ( no 3 point skills, careless and lazy defender, off the court problems, injury history)

But you can't hide all three.

Dwight Howard left more money on the table to leave the Lakers to go to the Rockets. Why? They had the asset and cap flexibility and space to help the team win in the future.

It's not just a players weaknesses, it's what that player costs against the cap while imposing those weaknesses on the team. Because the only way to "solve" those weaknesses is with assets and cap. Things the Knicks have poorly managed over the years.

Our #1 priority should be to develop him.

We thought Rose and Melo and Noah, Lee would help him as vets and get the team and KP playoff experience
Since that is not the case then I rather see us fully rebuild and give real chances to KP, Willy and Kuz.

I may be a tad too optimistic but I feel Willy, KP and Kuz should be given a chance to play big minutes together. They could be a really solid starting front court. Need guards that can defend, shoot and pass the ball (play unselfish)

Vmart wrote:

martin wrote:

Vmart wrote:

martin wrote:

Vmart wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Vmart wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

I don't get it. We have a player that is more Dirk than Dwight Howard and you would like to only compare him to Dwight to show what he is lacking. Not a reasonable expectation.

KP has not filled his body out and indeed does struggle in the post. But why would you want to make him out to be something he is not?

KP is a young guy still figuring out his game. He is a better shooter and far better defender than Dirk was in his second year in the league.

And here is some more amazing stuff:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/knicks-future-not-as-bleak-as-it-appears/

Porzingis has played a total of 108 games in his NBA career thus far. He has blocked 207 shots and knocked down 157 3-pointers. No only is he the first player in NBA history with more than 200 rejections and 150 treys this early in his career, but putting those stats in context helps to highlight their absurdity.

Porzingis has hit the same exact number of 3-pointers in his first 108 career games as Ray Allen did in Allen’s first 108 career contests. KP has more made treys than all-time great shooters such as James Harden, Michael Redd and Chauncey Billups to this point in their careers. In addition, he has blocked more shots in his first 108 games than Yao Ming (201) and Dwight Howard (175) did in their first 108 games.

Martin I'm not belittling KP's game I like what I see but there is a sure thing factor that his height gives him which I feel is not being exploited to its full capability. Believe it or not one day I would hope KP puts up 55% FG 40% three point FG and 90% FT. Young guy who works diligently at his craft I won't doubt that he may come close to this number. But The Knicks have to do better at making sure that aspect of 10 feet and in game is developed and used in the course of the game.

Really interested in seeing this lineup or type of rotation:

Hernangomez/Porzingis/Kuzminskas/Holiday/Rose
Plumlee/Kuzminskas/Holiday/Lee/Rose
Porzingis/Holiday/Lee/Baker/Jennings
Hernangomez/Porzingis/Lee/Baker/Jennings

Just to see what this team looks like without Melo, no Noah, and more for the future. Would also give them a great idea as to what type of players (role players) they would want back in Melo trade.

I think Rose given full freedom to run the team without Melo makes him a better more Westbrook like attacking PG. I've see him like to be in that role. KP needs a running mate even if he's got tunnel vision. I think the best thing that can happen to this team right now is to let Melo sit a few games and see what the team's real talent level is like, what type of player Rose still is an alpha and what needs we have in a Melo trade.

Think future Phil. Think future. We need to take the rest of the season to see the real potential of KP as a clear cut #2 option (fisrt option up front with Rose first option in the backcourt). We need to see more of Willy and Kuz against starting level talent in the league, same with Justin Holiday. We need to give Plumlee more time. We need to see what holes we have without Melo so when we (if) decide to deal Melo, we know what kind of veteran role players we need because we know we are going to have to take on some massive contracts back in a Melo trade.

If we do this right, we could end up with a future real fast in the present. Need to draft a good player in the lottery this year and then hopefully pick up some role players that fit the above mentioned team in a Melo trade (as well as a 1st round pick). Rose is 28, Holiday is 27, Kuz is 27, Kris is 21, Willy 22. That's a young starting 5 all with primes ahead of them or in their primes. Ensure in a Melo trade you get players in their 20's not 30's. Try to get a first round pick as well. It's all doable in my opinion.

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

arkrud wrote:Team need specialists and system adjustment to cover up for Melo and Rose deficiencies.
Good teams can handle this. Team in the beginning of rebuilding process of course cannot.

It's a salary cap problem. I've said this before, Melo carries too large a cap number to not play defense.

Perimeter defense costs money. Rim protection costs money. There is a finite amount of money a team can spend in any given season. Noah, Rose and Melo chew up a ton of cap space. To get better, you need help, to get help, you need assets and cap space/cap flexibility.

You might be able to hide a Noah alone ( long bad contract, injury prone)

You might be able to hide a Melo alone ( zero on defense by choice)

You might be able to hide Rose alone ( no 3 point skills, careless and lazy defender, off the court problems, injury history)

But you can't hide all three.

Dwight Howard left more money on the table to leave the Lakers to go to the Rockets. Why? They had the asset and cap flexibility and space to help the team win in the future.

It's not just a players weaknesses, it's what that player costs against the cap while imposing those weaknesses on the team. Because the only way to "solve" those weaknesses is with assets and cap. Things the Knicks have poorly managed over the years.

+1
Cannot be summarized better.

Too funny. So the original argument "that "WE" are better without Melo and Rose defensively" has now been abandoned, after realistic facts brought into light. And now your changing to another classic "Melohate" rhetoric....."He makes too much money" Here is what I keep saying about Melo hate, it all stems from unrealistic expectations. They expect one guy to come in here and win a chip by himself. Please name a max player on any team that has won a chip without a roster? Please name a max player who scores and is a defensive juggernaut in the league? Oh and....it has to be one that wanted to or actually came to such a dysfunctional organazation???. Problem is, you guys think this is NBA2K and you can put 5 LBJ's on the floor and beat up on people. Also, Funny how you mention Noah and Lee as being problems, since they were brought in to "PLAY DEFENSE" in the first place. They also take up 29M!? But Melo is the problem? And strange that defensive guys dont also score 20+ per, like yiu expect. Who do you have in mind that is a max player at the 4 that can score like Melo and play perimeter defense and rebound? Hmmmm. LBJ? Westbrook? Are they coming to this group of players? Triangle? Dolan? Grumpy old man GM?

This is not about Melo but about inept organization which was fixated on Melos of the NBA for too long with disastrous consequences for organization and for this players. Malo will be most likely much better off if he will never play for NY.
Instead of having system, coach, and GM who will maximize his skills and talents he was put in situation where his flow were exposed.

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

arkrud wrote:Team need specialists and system adjustment to cover up for Melo and Rose deficiencies.
Good teams can handle this. Team in the beginning of rebuilding process of course cannot.

It's a salary cap problem. I've said this before, Melo carries too large a cap number to not play defense.

Perimeter defense costs money. Rim protection costs money. There is a finite amount of money a team can spend in any given season. Noah, Rose and Melo chew up a ton of cap space. To get better, you need help, to get help, you need assets and cap space/cap flexibility.

You might be able to hide a Noah alone ( long bad contract, injury prone)

You might be able to hide a Melo alone ( zero on defense by choice)

You might be able to hide Rose alone ( no 3 point skills, careless and lazy defender, off the court problems, injury history)

But you can't hide all three.

Dwight Howard left more money on the table to leave the Lakers to go to the Rockets. Why? They had the asset and cap flexibility and space to help the team win in the future.

It's not just a players weaknesses, it's what that player costs against the cap while imposing those weaknesses on the team. Because the only way to "solve" those weaknesses is with assets and cap. Things the Knicks have poorly managed over the years.

+1
Cannot be summarized better.

Too funny. So the original argument "that "WE" are better without Melo and Rose defensively" has now been abandoned, after realistic facts brought into light. And now your changing to another classic "Melohate" rhetoric....."He makes too much money" Here is what I keep saying about Melo hate, it all stems from unrealistic expectations. They expect one guy to come in here and win a chip by himself. Please name a max player on any team that has won a chip without a roster? Please name a max player who scores and is a defensive juggernaut in the league? Oh and....it has to be one that wanted to or actually came to such a dysfunctional organazation???. Problem is, you guys think this is NBA2K and you can put 5 LBJ's on the floor and beat up on people. Also, Funny how you mention Noah and Lee as being problems, since they were brought in to "PLAY DEFENSE" in the first place. They also take up 29M!? But Melo is the problem? And strange that defensive guys dont also score 20+ per, like yiu expect. Who do you have in mind that is a max player at the 4 that can score like Melo and play perimeter defense and rebound? Hmmmm. LBJ? Westbrook? Are they coming to this group of players? Triangle? Dolan? Grumpy old man GM?

There's no such thing as general "better or worse without player X." It depends on what the player is being replaced with. Would we be better off with five good role players instead of Melo/Rose at $45 mil per? By every objective metric I can find, I think we'd be way better off. Would we be better off waiving the players and having no replacement? Of course not. (Well, technically, the team is playing better with Melo off the court this year but I'm skeptical that would hold up in a larger sample of minutes.) Will we be better off if Phil and Dolan replace Melo and Rose with overpriced veterans on longer contracts (or give a big extension to Rose)? No, we'd be worse off.

Exactly.
Players come and go but system and culture persist.
Crappy system and culture produced crappy results regardless of who is on the team.
Even greats like LeBron or Durant need right structure and culture to win consistently.

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

arkrud wrote:Team need specialists and system adjustment to cover up for Melo and Rose deficiencies.
Good teams can handle this. Team in the beginning of rebuilding process of course cannot.

It's a salary cap problem. I've said this before, Melo carries too large a cap number to not play defense.

Perimeter defense costs money. Rim protection costs money. There is a finite amount of money a team can spend in any given season. Noah, Rose and Melo chew up a ton of cap space. To get better, you need help, to get help, you need assets and cap space/cap flexibility.

You might be able to hide a Noah alone ( long bad contract, injury prone)

You might be able to hide a Melo alone ( zero on defense by choice)

You might be able to hide Rose alone ( no 3 point skills, careless and lazy defender, off the court problems, injury history)

But you can't hide all three.

Dwight Howard left more money on the table to leave the Lakers to go to the Rockets. Why? They had the asset and cap flexibility and space to help the team win in the future.

It's not just a players weaknesses, it's what that player costs against the cap while imposing those weaknesses on the team. Because the only way to "solve" those weaknesses is with assets and cap. Things the Knicks have poorly managed over the years.

+1
Cannot be summarized better.

Too funny. So the original argument "that "WE" are better without Melo and Rose defensively" has now been abandoned, after realistic facts brought into light. And now your changing to another classic "Melohate" rhetoric....."He makes too much money" Here is what I keep saying about Melo hate, it all stems from unrealistic expectations. They expect one guy to come in here and win a chip by himself. Please name a max player on any team that has won a chip without a roster? Please name a max player who scores and is a defensive juggernaut in the league? Oh and....it has to be one that wanted to or actually came to such a dysfunctional organazation???. Problem is, you guys think this is NBA2K and you can put 5 LBJ's on the floor and beat up on people. Also, Funny how you mention Noah and Lee as being problems, since they were brought in to "PLAY DEFENSE" in the first place. They also take up 29M!? But Melo is the problem? And strange that defensive guys dont also score 20+ per, like yiu expect. Who do you have in mind that is a max player at the 4 that can score like Melo and play perimeter defense and rebound? Hmmmm. LBJ? Westbrook? Are they coming to this group of players? Triangle? Dolan? Grumpy old man GM?

There's no such thing as general "better or worse without player X." It depends on what the player is being replaced with. Would we be better off with five good role players instead of Melo/Rose at $45 mil per? By every objective metric I can find, I think we'd be way better off. Would we be better off waiving the players and having no replacement? Of course not. (Well, technically, the team is playing better with Melo off the court this year but I'm skeptical that would hold up in a larger sample of minutes.) Will we be better off if Phil and Dolan replace Melo and Rose with overpriced veterans on longer contracts (or give a big extension to Rose)? No, we'd be worse off.

Thats were we disagree. Melo plus good guys around him and you give him the ball. 54 wins. Having just good role players and no guy like Melo to take main focus on offense and you have New York, Philly, Phoenix,Detroit, Miami, Brooklyn, Orlando, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Denver, Portland, Sacramento, Lakers and Minnesota. All who btw way have a lot better role players than we have had last two years or ones we have now in Jennings, Kuz, Baker, Willy and Holiday. But think JROD is right. Melohate is strong. Stats, sense, Bball IQ and facts don't matter. Do agree on Rose though, but already stated that.

blkexec wrote:The problem is we are not getting the best return on our investments. Good teams like GS was getting top performance at a low cost. This is why they won a chip. They were lucky enough to obtain players for cheap, while getting all star output in return. Plus their players are more than 1 dimensional. The knicks of the 90s were the same. We got all star output from low cost players. And again, most of them were more than 1 dimensional.

Theread are players on this team, getting the most money and most minutes are 1 dimensional. So when KP checks in, and launches a deep 3pter, coming in cold off the bench....you can't be surprised. The mentors that's getting top dollar are the same type of players....Rose and melo are high volume scorers. A team full of 1 dimensional vets makes it hard for rookie development and coaching rotations. When we had Jason kidd, we had multi-dimensional vets surrounded by 1 volume scorer. And won 50 games with that balance.

This philosophy is the same in pickup games. I've been on teams with 3 top volume scorers / shooter and lost more games with them.....vs.....a team with maybe 1 volume shooter and the rest played different roles by will....This recipe phill put together was the best he could do with the ingredients he had available and with limited GM / cooking experience. So no one should be overreacting the knicks output right now. This is currently phills worse case scenario.

What I dont like is why can't the knicks trade one of their volume scorers or 1 dimensional high priced players for a up and coming multi-dimensional player. You have to gamble and get lucky that someone will turn into a Jimmy Butler 2 way type, b4 they reach max potential dollars.

I think Phil does just that with the young player he get and some low profile vets.
Melo was given another chance with Rose, Noah, and Jennings to reinvent his game.
We had to try as Melo was not going anywhere.
This obviously failed as it should but did not cost us much.
I hope this will continue as planned this summer and after.
We need to try more young and multidimensional players while Melo lost tenure is winding up.

nyknickzingis wrote:Wrote this in the game thread - but also applies here:

Really interested in seeing this lineup or type of rotation:

Hernangomez/Porzingis/Kuzminskas/Holiday/Rose
Plumlee/Kuzminskas/Holiday/Lee/Rose
Porzingis/Holiday/Lee/Baker/Jennings
Hernangomez/Porzingis/Lee/Baker/Jennings

Just to see what this team looks like without Melo, no Noah, and more for the future. Would also give them a great idea as to what type of players (role players) they would want back in Melo trade.

I think Rose given full freedom to run the team without Melo makes him a better more Westbrook like attacking PG. I've see him like to be in that role. KP needs a running mate even if he's got tunnel vision. I think the best thing that can happen to this team right now is to let Melo sit a few games and see what the team's real talent level is like, what type of player Rose still is an alpha and what needs we have in a Melo trade.

Think future Phil. Think future. We need to take the rest of the season to see the real potential of KP as a clear cut #2 option (fisrt option up front with Rose first option in the backcourt). We need to see more of Willy and Kuz against starting level talent in the league, same with Justin Holiday. We need to give Plumlee more time. We need to see what holes we have without Melo so when we (if) decide to deal Melo, we know what kind of veteran role players we need because we know we are going to have to take on some massive contracts back in a Melo trade.

If we do this right, we could end up with a future real fast in the present. Need to draft a good player in the lottery this year and then hopefully pick up some role players that fit the above mentioned team in a Melo trade (as well as a 1st round pick). Rose is 28, Holiday is 27, Kuz is 27, Kris is 21, Willy 22. That's a young starting 5 all with primes ahead of them or in their primes. Ensure in a Melo trade you get players in their 20's not 30's. Try to get a first round pick as well. It's all doable in my opinion.

And if we have a repeat of 2013 draft class? A repeat of every draft pick the Knicks have made since 1987? (Except for unicorn). Who by the way, can still become the Andrea Bargnani or Dirk Nowitski? Believe the latter but there is always that chance with young players. Or maybe Sam Bowie 2.0, with injuries? All possible. But let's keep it realistic, one minor reality....Melo has NTC!!!! Your not getting anything for him if other teams know he has a short list. And NO, I am not giving up our best player because you want "to give it a try" Or your trying to speed up KP being "The Guy" Thought we were all Knicks fans? Not player fans? We get Melo to stop trying to create off dribble by 3pt. line and he is still one of the toughest covers. This helps KP more than you know. But you will find out once Melo is gone. Which is about three, maybe more, years from now.

blkexec wrote:The problem is we are not getting the best return on our investments. Good teams like GS was getting top performance at a low cost. This is why they won a chip. They were lucky enough to obtain players for cheap, while getting all star output in return. Plus their players are more than 1 dimensional. The knicks of the 90s were the same. We got all star output from low cost players. And again, most of them were more than 1 dimensional.

Theread are players on this team, getting the most money and most minutes are 1 dimensional. So when KP checks in, and launches a deep 3pter, coming in cold off the bench....you can't be surprised. The mentors that's getting top dollar are the same type of players....Rose and melo are high volume scorers. A team full of 1 dimensional vets makes it hard for rookie development and coaching rotations. When we had Jason kidd, we had multi-dimensional vets surrounded by 1 volume scorer. And won 50 games with that balance.

This philosophy is the same in pickup games. I've been on teams with 3 top volume scorers / shooter and lost more games with them.....vs.....a team with maybe 1 volume shooter and the rest played different roles by will....This recipe phill put together was the best he could do with the ingredients he had available and with limited GM / cooking experience. So no one should be overreacting the knicks output right now. This is currently phills worse case scenario.

What I dont like is why can't the knicks trade one of their volume scorers or 1 dimensional high priced players for a up and coming multi-dimensional player. You have to gamble and get lucky that someone will turn into a Jimmy Butler 2 way type, b4 they reach max potential dollars.

Fair enough..But if we trade Melo(NTC), what do we get back? Who wants Rose as rental? Who wants Noah at 17M to be a back up? Maybe Lee, but he is our best percentage 3pt. shooter? And your telling me KP developed an affinity for the long ball after he watched Melo.play? Come on. That's why everyone wanted him. A 7'3 that can put up 28 footers. Come on let's keep it real. You do have fair points about what it takes to put together a good team. And that having too many volume shooters on the team is bad. But if anyone comes away from watching the last few games, and says Melo is the problem, Needs to watch again. His last gew games (And all of first half last year) he did everything possible at an efficient rate. Does he need to continue to improve? Yes. Do we trade him for some young long shots. No.