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Rose/Melo and how it affects KP
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nixluva
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1/22/2017  4:23 PM
arkrud wrote:All talk is about improving offence which is already good enough.
Defense is the issue and both Melo and Rose are very bad at it.
Without defense KP no-KP this team will never be good.
Knicks need 2-way defensive minded players around KP and both Melo and Rose are not a solution.

We all know the D needs to improve but it's not true that the offense is good enough!!! There are more levels that KP can take his game too as well as Rose n Melo. The problem I have is that the 3 of them don't work together in a way that they fully enhance each other's games. Just imagine CP3 in the mix and how much more efficient they would be!!!

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HofstraBBall
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1/22/2017  4:25 PM
nixluva wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:So KP makes 5 straight shots in the third quarter.
Barely shoots or get set up rest of the way

Rose and Melo are very good scorers but they don't make teammates better or find players in flow.

In my opinion we need to choose between Melo and Rose and build the team around Willy, KP, Kuz or Melo, Lee/Holiday and Rose or (A PG we trade Rose for)

I think KP is not ready to be the alpha of the team, but he absolutely should be the prioritized number 2 option.

Rose is younger at 28 looks in his athletic prime. But not a great teammate and more of a shooting guard.
Melo is older at 33, looks in physical decline but when playing point forward plays well with KP and a good teammate. Loyal.

One thing is for sure.

Melo, Rose and KP just don't work as a big 3. Individually they all put nice numbers but the flow just isn't there.

We are adding a lottery pick this summer. We have Willy at the 5, KP at 4, Kuz at 3. Should re-sign Holiday for coming in as a small quick 3 or a 2. The question is who is better fit long term Melo or Rose? Believe it or not I think we should keep one. We need one star to pair with KP.

How many points did KP score in first half withiut Melo and Rose on the floor? With? Is that because we did not get him the ball? How many more shots did Melo take than KP? 4!? You may have a point with Rose with 26 shots. And agree there could be more off the ball plays for KP, specially down the stretch. But you can say that for any player. Sometimes the good players just have to take it upon themselves to take over.

But here is the problem with your assertion. Lets say we get rid of Rose and Melo and get say a guy like CP3 (Great chance of that happening. See THJ and Grant try), what will KP's challenge be? He still has trouble creating his own shot like Melo or Rose. He does not dive to basket on PnR. He does not have a post up game. He mostly is comfortable hovering the 3pt. line. So what do you think will happen when he is placed on the floor with guys of a lesser caliber/threat than Rose or Melo? Clue, watch yesterdays game and others, when he was on the floor without them. Can he handle and create when defenses are focusing on doubling him forcing others to beat them? No one sees the complexity of trying to score when teams focus on you. Let alone take over a game/dominate. ie. Melo.

Its one thing to hope that he is ready for the next level and carry a team and face the full focus of a defense. But from what we have seen, we cant say that is guaranteed. Ofcourse he still might be but to think he can at 21 YEARS OLD is pretty aggressive. I do agree that they may not work as big 3. Was excited to have Rose, a quick former MVP and upgrade but just dont think we can win without a true PG with a good outside shot. Problem is, they are hard to find and are quite expensive. (Conley). Disagree that KUZ is a starter in this league, right now. Has too many holes on defense. Also, sometimes a bit of tunnel vision on offense.

You make some good points. I think we have a special talent in..KP so i dont think we have to worry about his future. However you are right he is still very young and hasnt reached his full potential yet. I still feel we dont run enough plays for him though. We definetly need traditional point guard for BOTH KP and melo. I appreciate what rose does but he just doesnt fit as a point guard

Agree. Hopefully we get a good one. Would not mind keeping Rose, if not too expensive and have him come off the bench. Just dont think he would accept that. Imo, wed dont have enough set plays for KP and Melo where they get picks off the ball. But then everyone will be complaing we dont have a free flowing, everyone touches the ball offense.


No I totally agree about running some picks/down screens etc. there's no reason we can't run some Curls etc. KP and Melo both KILL IT on catch and shoot looks. If Rose had better court vision it would make a HUGE difference!! The guy just puts his head down and never really looks around enough. Rose should be looking to drive and kick EVERY SINGLE TIME! He will still be able to score while doing that.

If I was coach I'd drill just that. No layups. Just drive looking for open teammates 🤓

Very true. Something interesting to note though, contrary to nyknickzingis original post, KP had his best minutes in the 3rd with both Melo and Rose on the court. Did not play until the last three minutes of the 4th and Kp came in and quickly threw up a ridiculous long 3. But to need for true PG, KP nor Melo touched the ball in the last 3 minutes, except for KP's long three and Melo with 6.3 in left in game.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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1/22/2017  4:30 PM
arkrud wrote:All talk is about improving offence which is already good enough.
Defense is the issue and both Melo and Rose are very bad at it.
Without defense KP no-KP this team will never be good.
Knicks need 2-way defensive minded players around KP and both Melo and Rose are not a solution.

You have to stop saying general, unbacked, opinion based ****. Can you tell me last nights +/- for Rose and Melo? KP's and rotations without them? And what was the Suns shooting % with them on? With them off? Clue, you dont know what you are saying.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Vmart
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1/22/2017  4:58 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

martin
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1/22/2017  5:06 PM
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

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Vmart
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1/22/2017  5:22 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

martin
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1/22/2017  5:36 PM
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

I don't get it. We have a player that is more Dirk than Dwight Howard and you would like to only compare him to Dwight to show what he is lacking. Not a reasonable expectation.

KP has not filled his body out and indeed does struggle in the post. But why would you want to make him out to be something he is not?

KP is a young guy still figuring out his game. He is a better shooter and far better defender than Dirk was in his second year in the league.

And here is some more amazing stuff:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/knicks-future-not-as-bleak-as-it-appears/

Porzingis has played a total of 108 games in his NBA career thus far. He has blocked 207 shots and knocked down 157 3-pointers. No only is he the first player in NBA history with more than 200 rejections and 150 treys this early in his career, but putting those stats in context helps to highlight their absurdity.

Porzingis has hit the same exact number of 3-pointers in his first 108 career games as Ray Allen did in Allen’s first 108 career contests. KP has more made treys than all-time great shooters such as James Harden, Michael Redd and Chauncey Billups to this point in their careers. In addition, he has blocked more shots in his first 108 games than Yao Ming (201) and Dwight Howard (175) did in their first 108 games.

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Vmart
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1/22/2017  5:54 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

I don't get it. We have a player that is more Dirk than Dwight Howard and you would like to only compare him to Dwight to show what he is lacking. Not a reasonable expectation.

KP has not filled his body out and indeed does struggle in the post. But why would you want to make him out to be something he is not?

KP is a young guy still figuring out his game. He is a better shooter and far better defender than Dirk was in his second year in the league.

And here is some more amazing stuff:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/knicks-future-not-as-bleak-as-it-appears/

Porzingis has played a total of 108 games in his NBA career thus far. He has blocked 207 shots and knocked down 157 3-pointers. No only is he the first player in NBA history with more than 200 rejections and 150 treys this early in his career, but putting those stats in context helps to highlight their absurdity.

Porzingis has hit the same exact number of 3-pointers in his first 108 career games as Ray Allen did in Allen’s first 108 career contests. KP has more made treys than all-time great shooters such as James Harden, Michael Redd and Chauncey Billups to this point in their careers. In addition, he has blocked more shots in his first 108 games than Yao Ming (201) and Dwight Howard (175) did in their first 108 games.

Martin I'm not belittling KP's game I like what I see but there is a sure thing factor that his height gives him which I feel is not being exploited to its full capability. Believe it or not one day I would hope KP puts up 55% FG 40% three point FG and 90% FT. Young guy who works diligently at his craft I won't doubt that he may come close to this number. But The Knicks have to do better at making sure that aspect of 10 feet and in game is developed and used in the course of the game.

arkrud
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1/22/2017  7:00 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
arkrud wrote:All talk is about improving offence which is already good enough.
Defense is the issue and both Melo and Rose are very bad at it.
Without defense KP no-KP this team will never be good.
Knicks need 2-way defensive minded players around KP and both Melo and Rose are not a solution.

You have to stop saying general, unbacked, opinion based ****. Can you tell me last nights +/- for Rose and Melo? KP's and rotations without them? And what was the Suns shooting % with them on? With them off? Clue, you dont know what you are saying.

You can find this info in many threads here. It was one with video posted breaking it up.
But there is no need for in-depth analysts if you watching the game.
Rose has no clue on defense, cannot stay with his man, messing up assignments, helping to wrong man, cannot defend simple pick-an-roll.
Melo is just plain lazy, his man scores at will, slow defending any SF, and get pushed around by PFs.
His running 3th and missed shots after ISO lead to fats breaks. He is passing to oblivion a lot and take responsibilities of PG when it is no need for this.
At times he looks like dumbest player on the court.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
nixluva
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1/22/2017  7:07 PM
There are ways to help KP to be more efficient within his physical capabilities right now. It's not so much KP as it is the way he's supported. When BJ was in sync with KP earlier in the season you could see KP got better looks closer to the basket. KP was going quicker, more confidently and was in rhythm. KP can still get back to that and more with minor adjustments from Jeff and his teammates.
Gudris
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1/22/2017  7:42 PM
Rose in a begining of season was passing to KP in it was good, but than he start to see KP getting more than him, but he also wants to shine, Rose have too big EGO, Melo also have, but Melo at least is trying to pass more
newyorker4ever
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1/22/2017  7:55 PM
nixluva wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Are they stopping KP from getting a rebound? Also, why did he not get shots to start the 4th when Rose and Melo was off the floor? Why isn't JH making him the focal point when he is running with the bench or signal to his pg to go back to KP when he is with the starters.

Neither Rose or Melo is a star but if you keep one you keep Melo because you do not give a huge contract to Rose at all. I could see if he was showing promise as a passer but he is not so he has to go.

You sound a bit bitter towards KP! Is he supposed to be perfect in year 2 at 21??? The point isn't whether KP is a finished product it's about how to best develop him into the best player he can be. So far Rose and Melo have not done enough to help KP succeed. Even BJ has fallen off his pretty good PG play from earlier in the season.

Jeff came into the season saying he wanted to highlight KP but as the problems with the team have mounted, his focus on KP has slipped. BJ used to get KP GREAT looks earlier in the season which only proves the big get should be a passing PG.

You sound like a lot of Knick fans who get upset when someone criticizes KP. He has flaws it is okay to point them out. It is also okay to point out that he needs to take ownership of his own shortcomings. He has things he needs to work on inside which hopefully will come as he matures and develops physically. IF KP is going to start to play the 5 more he needs to rebound, roll to the basket more, and stop committing stupid fouls.


Do the knicks need to do a better job of building around him going forward sure but that would have been my goal since he was drafted.


It's not about me not criticizing KP or any other Knicks fan not critiquing him. It's about recognizing he's still young and developing and to try to keep things in perspective. He doesn't get the benefit of a PG partner that is looking to get him great looks. I guarantee you KP would be putting up great numbers with a more complimentary PG.

KP Readily admits he has a lot to learn and NO ONE has ever questioned his work ethic. He came back this year with improved skills and I expect that will continue.

Yes if you take this team and replace Rose with say a R.Rubio then Kp would become our 2nd scorer and his numbers would be better then they are now.

newyorker4ever
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1/22/2017  8:02 PM
nixluva wrote:
arkrud wrote:All talk is about improving offence which is already good enough.
Defense is the issue and both Melo and Rose are very bad at it.
Without defense KP no-KP this team will never be good.
Knicks need 2-way defensive minded players around KP and both Melo and Rose are not a solution.

We all know the D needs to improve but it's not true that the offense is good enough!!! There are more levels that KP can take his game too as well as Rose n Melo. The problem I have is that the 3 of them don't work together in a way that they fully enhance each other's games. Just imagine CP3 in the mix and how much more efficient they would be!!!

I wouldn't say the offense isn't good enough because it is good enough to win games but it can be better and KP is still gonna get better. KP isn't a finished product so we still have a better KP to look forward to.

newyorker4ever
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1/22/2017  8:04 PM
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

Oh so what i said isn't true? I'm pretty sure most big men take most of their shots under or around the basket and KP definitely does not do that. He spends pretty much all of his time at least 10 feet away from the basket but he also plays more PF then he plays C.

newyorker4ever
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1/22/2017  8:06 PM
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

Didn't i just pretty much say this and you said it was an excuse??

HofstraBBall
Posts: 27186
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

1/22/2017  8:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/22/2017  8:16 PM
arkrud wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
arkrud wrote:All talk is about improving offence which is already good enough.
Defense is the issue and both Melo and Rose are very bad at it.
Without defense KP no-KP this team will never be good.
Knicks need 2-way defensive minded players around KP and both Melo and Rose are not a solution.

You have to stop saying general, unbacked, opinion based ****. Can you tell me last nights +/- for Rose and Melo? KP's and rotations without them? And what was the Suns shooting % with them on? With them off? Clue, you dont know what you are saying.

You can find this info in many threads here. It was one with video posted breaking it up.
But there is no need for in-depth analysts if you watching the game.
Rose has no clue on defense, cannot stay with his man, messing up assignments, helping to wrong man, cannot defend simple pick-an-roll.
Melo is just plain lazy, his man scores at will, slow defending any SF, and get pushed around by PFs.
His running 3th and missed shots after ISO lead to fats breaks. He is passing to oblivion a lot and take responsibilities of PG when it is no need for this.
At times he looks like dumbest player on the court.

Your claim was that we need defense. And that Melo and Rose are the biggest factors for our bad defense. Yet stats that point to the contrary or the fact that when they are off, we are actually worse, you ignore. I get it. Makes sense. At least to you. Does Melo always get back? No. Is our defense bad because of just him? Stats say no. But yeah, your blanket statements are more reliable. And Btw, let's do a defensive video breakdown of any player on the team that has played 35+ minutes. I'm sure we won't find any lapses.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Vmart
Posts: 31800
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USA
1/22/2017  8:17 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

Oh so what i said isn't true? I'm pretty sure most big men take most of their shots under or around the basket and KP definitely does not do that. He spends pretty much all of his time at least 10 feet away from the basket but he also plays more PF then he plays C.

Maybe I read it wrong or with a different meaning. My apologies sir.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 27186
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Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

1/22/2017  8:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/22/2017  8:37 PM
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

I don't get it. We have a player that is more Dirk than Dwight Howard and you would like to only compare him to Dwight to show what he is lacking. Not a reasonable expectation.

KP has not filled his body out and indeed does struggle in the post. But why would you want to make him out to be something he is not?

KP is a young guy still figuring out his game. He is a better shooter and far better defender than Dirk was in his second year in the league.

And here is some more amazing stuff:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/knicks-future-not-as-bleak-as-it-appears/

Porzingis has played a total of 108 games in his NBA career thus far. He has blocked 207 shots and knocked down 157 3-pointers. No only is he the first player in NBA history with more than 200 rejections and 150 treys this early in his career, but putting those stats in context helps to highlight their absurdity.

Porzingis has hit the same exact number of 3-pointers in his first 108 career games as Ray Allen did in Allen’s first 108 career contests. KP has more made treys than all-time great shooters such as James Harden, Michael Redd and Chauncey Billups to this point in their careers. In addition, he has blocked more shots in his first 108 games than Yao Ming (201) and Dwight Howard (175) did in their first 108 games.

Martin I'm not belittling KP's game I like what I see but there is a sure thing factor that his height gives him which I feel is not being exploited to its full capability. Believe it or not one day I would hope KP puts up 55% FG 40% three point FG and 90% FT. Young guy who works diligently at his craft I won't doubt that he may come close to this number. But The Knicks have to do better at making sure that aspect of 10 feet and in game is developed and used in the course of the game.

I don't understand how most keep saying that we are grooming KP to be our long term 5. Yet they dislike the suggestion that he needs to improve his down low game. Which is good to have, as it opens up perimeter shooting for his team and keeps them close to the basket for possible offensive rebounds. The mention of Dirk is also interesting, as he played mostly with his back to hoop and preferred to cut to basket off pick and rolls or move to short range jump shots. Which is what I am hoping KP adds to his game. Don't understand how wanting a 7'3 guy to be able to post up and cut to basket off PnR is bad? Or something that will hurt his overall game. Luckily, at 21, he has plenty of time to improve. I think he will. He definitely has the talent to do so.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
LivingLegend
Posts: 23775
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 8/13/2007
Member: #1645

1/22/2017  8:40 PM
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

He has been placed in a catch/shoot role in NY with Melo/Rose dominating. One of the benefits of the triangle was that ISO ball and high screen role didn't dominate the offense but balled found its way to proper shooter.

Funny how all the triangle is killing us talk has died.

Melo needs to go yesterday -- get him out of town.

nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
1/22/2017  8:44 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Vmart wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think Kp should watch how jovic plays and add some of it to his game

For such a high iq player he has 0 passing game. He takes way too many stupid shots he needs to NOT have less than 7-8 rebounds at a minimum and he needs to be more of a force on d. So many facets of the game including style of play. I'm not worried he didn't get as many shots as rose he needs to do more of the other stuff. He took a 3 late in the game that was mind boggling bad

His inside game is so bad to. He has no kind of hookshot or under the basket play at all. All he'll do is start a drive to the basket and pull up for a jumper. KP is in no way ready to take over a team and once we're out of the playoff picture they should make him more of a focal point of the offense especially if the plan is to trade Melo.

This offseason the Knicks need to pay Kevin Mchale to sit down with him and talk to him about his game. then he needs about a month practicing with him. He does not play a good brand of basketball---he could be great but he has to relearn facets of the game.

He is getting a lot of Melo exposure. Which I think isn't good for him. The factor of inefficiency is rubbing off on him. I'll say it again there is no way a 7'3 player should be shooting below 50% no way yet KP is doing it. This is scary, this absolutely not a good sign.

There's a big difference when you have a big man like KP taking the majority of his shots from 15 to 26 feet from the basket and most other big men that take their shots with either lay ups or 5 to 10 feet from the basket.

That is an excuse.

And excuse for what? KP is a stretch 5, something the league has never seen before. If you want to make him out to be something he is not - a post/power player - then you can point to all the stats you want that focus on his lack of strength to operate down low. On the other hand, he is not Dwight Howard or D'Andre Jordan, and I would never lament the fact that those 2 guys SUCK at 3 point shots.

7'3 and now the 5 on the team. I have seen stretch PF shoot over 50%. He should be punishing small PFs down low. This is what is wrong with the Knicks. They don't know they have a player that can be efficient in scoring yet they have him hugging the three point line. I get it he can shoot the three at a good clip. But he averages about 3-4 a game if you watch the game he is way to far from the hoop on many occasions should be closer and those become high percentage shots.

I don't get it. We have a player that is more Dirk than Dwight Howard and you would like to only compare him to Dwight to show what he is lacking. Not a reasonable expectation.

KP has not filled his body out and indeed does struggle in the post. But why would you want to make him out to be something he is not?

KP is a young guy still figuring out his game. He is a better shooter and far better defender than Dirk was in his second year in the league.

And here is some more amazing stuff:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/knicks-future-not-as-bleak-as-it-appears/

Porzingis has played a total of 108 games in his NBA career thus far. He has blocked 207 shots and knocked down 157 3-pointers. No only is he the first player in NBA history with more than 200 rejections and 150 treys this early in his career, but putting those stats in context helps to highlight their absurdity.

Porzingis has hit the same exact number of 3-pointers in his first 108 career games as Ray Allen did in Allen’s first 108 career contests. KP has more made treys than all-time great shooters such as James Harden, Michael Redd and Chauncey Billups to this point in their careers. In addition, he has blocked more shots in his first 108 games than Yao Ming (201) and Dwight Howard (175) did in their first 108 games.

Martin I'm not belittling KP's game I like what I see but there is a sure thing factor that his height gives him which I feel is not being exploited to its full capability. Believe it or not one day I would hope KP puts up 55% FG 40% three point FG and 90% FT. Young guy who works diligently at his craft I won't doubt that he may come close to this number. But The Knicks have to do better at making sure that aspect of 10 feet and in game is developed and used in the course of the game.

I don't understand how most keep saying that we are grooming KP to be our long term 5. Yet they dislike the suggestion that he needs to improve his down low game. Which is good to have, as it opens up perimeter shooting for his team and keeps them close to the basket for possible offensive rebounds. The mention of Dirk is also interesting, as he played mostly with his back to hoop and preferred to cut to basket off pick and rolls or move to short range jump shots. Which is what I am hoping KP adds to his game. Don't understand how wanting a 7'3 guy to be able to post up and cut to basket off PnR is bad? Or something that will hurt his overall game. Luckily, at 21, he has plenty of time to improve. I think he will. He definitely has the talent to do so.

I think we're actually all fairly close on KP. I think we all recognize he needs to improve his post game and continue to get stronger. I don't think he has to become a low post big but will be more like Dirk and KG in how they post, which was more of a finesse game than a power game.

Let's not forget KP already has Dirk's moves in the post. We know he can do it. He's just gotta mature and decide what his go to move is gonna be when he posts so he can perfect it and be more consistent with what he does.

Rose/Melo and how it affects KP

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