CrushAlot wrote:

wargames wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

wargames wrote:Maybe if we threw in a ton of second rounders (or a first)..... but I would prefer we just take or medicine on that contract and keep the picks

We don't need the cap space so why give up any second rounders (which we do need)?

Exactly, also knowing our luck they would ask for a first rounder. I like Crabbe.... and still think if they didn't have a glut at wing he could get better. But, I doubt anyone does a trade straight up for Noah. He is offensively looking like Jared Jefferies out there right now.

If the Knicks make a trade for Crabbe it better be because they think he can be a long term contributor because it's still gonna cost them some (at best) second round picks or a young player on a cheap contract to compensate the Blazers.

Ouch. Walsh sent the 7th pick in the draft and another first rounder (16th pick) to move Jeffries contract so the knicks would have space to sign LBJ and another star

Yeah, Walsh was a dope. A noble dope....but a dope. I wish we would've just thrown our war chest at a bunch of young assistants in the Spurs front office and allow them their space to grow this team more organically.

As a side, our pick in the 2009 draft was 8th (Jordan Hill), not 7th (Stephen Curry) even though both seeds had the same record. It was clear that after Rubio and Curry were off the board that we were lukewarm on the remaining prospecrs, which begged the question "why not trade down?". You mean to tell me that a playoff team like the Jazz wouldn't have been interested and that we couldn't recoup their pick at 20 and regain control of our own 2010 pick that they owned? At 20, Darren Collison was still available and he turned out to be a better NBA player than Jordan Hill; not to mention he actually fit a need for us at that time. Just no creativity or ingenuity on Walsh's part during his era as Knicks president.

CrushAlot wrote:

wargames wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

wargames wrote:Maybe if we threw in a ton of second rounders (or a first)..... but I would prefer we just take or medicine on that contract and keep the picks

We don't need the cap space so why give up any second rounders (which we do need)?

Exactly, also knowing our luck they would ask for a first rounder. I like Crabbe.... and still think if they didn't have a glut at wing he could get better. But, I doubt anyone does a trade straight up for Noah. He is offensively looking like Jared Jefferies out there right now.

If the Knicks make a trade for Crabbe it better be because they think he can be a long term contributor because it's still gonna cost them some (at best) second round picks or a young player on a cheap contract to compensate the Blazers.

Ouch. Walsh sent the 7th pick in the draft and another first rounder (16th pick) to move Jeffries contract so the knicks would have space to sign LBJ and another star

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah is done..They wouldn't want him, they have a young team..They rather let Ropez walk than paying him 13 mil..In the Knicks signing Noah, the hope was that he was hampered injuries in the last few years like Rose, and he could regain some explosiveness and energy...But he doesn't have any of that...We have to eat his contract...I think you have the right idea tho..I would much rather go after Otto Porter who came into the league as a slasher, and an uptempo type player...Porter is shooting the three at a high percentage as you saw...

Again, is this the vision of the GM..Does he want to build a team of wing players as opposed to front line players??..I think we have to start looking at team direction...

Walsh made his share of mistakes as GM, but the way he cleared cap space, bad contracts, for LeBron, was a work of art. Walsh's long standing relationships with other GMs went a long way to moving all those bad deals without taking on someone else's long term headaches in return. Unfortunately we dont have anyone like that as a GM.

Those "bad" contracts were tied up into Zach Randolph- a 20/10 big man just entering his prime- and Jamal Crawford- a perennial 6th man of the year contender just entering his. His trading them for cents on the dollar wasn't masterful; it was the work of an old man whose judgment of the game had long since become outmoded. People criticize Isiah for destroying the Knicks; I'd argue that Walsh's tenure here was worse and set us on a trajectory of futility that we still appear to be on.

Dantoni wanted to get rid of Randolph because he doesnt like centers with a low post game, and it was well before the Lebron sweepstakes. I didnt want Zach traded either but he was not going to mesh with MDA.

Dolan told him to clear cap room for LeBron and Walsh did just that. He didnt have the clout that Phil had to hold on to draft picks. No one on this board thought thst he could move all that cap space as quickly as he did.

To argue that Walsh tenure was worse than Isiah Thomas's is insane. The man was an absolute disgrace, as an executive, as a human being, as a man who threw his own daughter under the bus to save his ass, and a sexual harasser of women. Whatever mistakes Walsh made, and he made his share, he wasnt a scumbag.

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah is done..They wouldn't want him, they have a young team..They rather let Ropez walk than paying him 13 mil..In the Knicks signing Noah, the hope was that he was hampered injuries in the last few years like Rose, and he could regain some explosiveness and energy...But he doesn't have any of that...We have to eat his contract...I think you have the right idea tho..I would much rather go after Otto Porter who came into the league as a slasher, and an uptempo type player...Porter is shooting the three at a high percentage as you saw...

Again, is this the vision of the GM..Does he want to build a team of wing players as opposed to front line players??..I think we have to start looking at team direction...

Walsh made his share of mistakes as GM, but the way he cleared cap space, bad contracts, for LeBron, was a work of art. Walsh's long standing relationships with other GMs went a long way to moving all those bad deals without taking on someone else's long term headaches in return. Unfortunately we dont have anyone like that as a GM.

Those "bad" contracts were tied up into Zach Randolph- a 20/10 big man just entering his prime- and Jamal Crawford- a perennial 6th man of the year contender just entering his. His trading them for cents on the dollar wasn't masterful; it was the work of an old man whose judgment of the game had long since become outmoded. People criticize Isiah for destroying the Knicks; I'd argue that Walsh's tenure here was worse and set us on a trajectory of futility that we still appear to be on.

Remember that part of what screwed us out of finding a third star to play with Melo (i.e. CP3) wasn't the result of us blowing trade assets on Melo. It was the result of a plethora of missed opportunities that Walsh failed to capitalize on like...

1.) Missing out on the opportunity to dump Jared Jefferies earlier due to our reluctance to include Nate Robinson in a trade to the Kings. We then went on to trade Robinson the following season for 3 dudes who would be out of the league within 2 seasons and then squandered our 9th pick in the 2009 draft and 2012 draft just to offload Jared Jefferies. Which brings me to my next point...

2.) Trading Jared Jefferies at all. Why move the guy without any sort of guarantee that you'd have someone worth signing in 2010? Smart teams like the Heat in 2010 and Warriors in 2016 do stuff like that. Dumb teams, don't. Those picks we gave up- for the privilege of signing Raymond Felton- could've been saved and potentially position us for a CP3 trade in 2011. Imagine how different Melo's time here would've been with a running mate like Chris Paul! We would've been perennial contenders and capable of going toe-to-toe with the Heat during those years.

3.) Opting not to trade Eddy Curry earlier in his tenure in hopes of him recouping a higher return. The Pistons were reportedly interested in a Billups for Curry swap during the 2008 offseason but Walsh balked since Billups' contract ran past 2010 into the 2011 offseason.

3.) Not tanking the 2008-2009 season, which resulted in us losing the tie breaker to Golden State, who ended up with a higher pick and selecting Stephen Curry. The rest is history.

4.) Not trading David Lee for any discernable assets.

....there is more but I feel like I'm taking away from the thread by pushing the issue. But I just don't see how anyone can view Walsh's tenure here as being anything positive.

NardDogNation wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah is done..They wouldn't want him, they have a young team..They rather let Ropez walk than paying him 13 mil..In the Knicks signing Noah, the hope was that he was hampered injuries in the last few years like Rose, and he could regain some explosiveness and energy...But he doesn't have any of that...We have to eat his contract...I think you have the right idea tho..I would much rather go after Otto Porter who came into the league as a slasher, and an uptempo type player...Porter is shooting the three at a high percentage as you saw...

Again, is this the vision of the GM..Does he want to build a team of wing players as opposed to front line players??..I think we have to start looking at team direction...

Walsh made his share of mistakes as GM, but the way he cleared cap space, bad contracts, for LeBron, was a work of art. Walsh's long standing relationships with other GMs went a long way to moving all those bad deals without taking on someone else's long term headaches in return. Unfortunately we dont have anyone like that as a GM.

Those "bad" contracts were tied up into Zach Randolph- a 20/10 big man just entering his prime- and Jamal Crawford- a perennial 6th man of the year contender just entering his. His trading them for cents on the dollar wasn't masterful; it was the work of an old man whose judgment of the game had long since become outmoded. People criticize Isiah for destroying the Knicks; I'd argue that Walsh's tenure here was worse and set us on a trajectory of futility that we still appear to be on.

Remember that part of what screwed us out of finding a third star to play with Melo (i.e. CP3) wasn't the result of us blowing trade assets on Melo. It was the result of a plethora of missed opportunities that Walsh failed to capitalize on like...

1.) Missing out on the opportunity to dump Jared Jefferies earlier due to our reluctance to include Nate Robinson in a trade to the Kings. We then went on to trade Robinson the following season for 3 dudes who would be out of the league within 2 seasons and then squandered our 9th pick in the 2009 draft and 2012 draft just to offload Jared Jefferies. Which brings me to my next point...

2.) Trading Jared Jefferies at all. Why move the guy without any sort of guarantee that you'd have someone worth signing in 2010? Smart teams like the Heat in 2010 and Warriors in 2016 do stuff like that. Dumb teams, don't. Those picks we gave up- for the privilege of signing Raymond Felton- could've been saved and potentially position us for a CP3 trade in 2011. Imagine how different Melo's time here would've been with a running mate like Chris Paul! We would've been perennial contenders and capable of going toe-to-toe with the Heat during those years.

3.) Opting not to trade Eddy Curry earlier in his tenure in hopes of him recouping a higher return. The Pistons were reportedly interested in a Billups for Curry swap during the 2008 offseason but Walsh balked since Billups' contract ran past 2010 into the 2011 offseason.

3.) Not tanking the 2008-2009 season, which resulted in us losing the tie breaker to Golden State, who ended up with a higher pick and selecting Stephen Curry. The rest is history.

4.) Not trading David Lee for any discernable assets.

....there is more but I feel like I'm taking away from the thread by pushing the issue. But I just don't see how anyone can view Walsh's tenure here as being anything positive.

Opting not to trade the player (Curry) with one of the worst contracts in the league, who couldnt stay on the floor, or in shape. Dont consider an old rumor to be convincing.

Not tanking back then had absolutely nothing to do with Walsh and everything to do with Dolan. If anyone could have convinced Dolan back then to tank it would have been Isiah, but he didnt or couldn't, for whatever reason.

Ive pointed out twice already that Walsh made his share of mistakes. But Isiah tarnished the brand in a way that no exec in Knicks history has ever done. I dont believe thats really debatable. Its not just the deals, good and bad, its how you represent the franchise.

Walsh was a given a job to do, clear a boatload of cap room, and he did it in short order. That was in part because of his having a good relationship with other GMs.

That awful contract for Eddy Curry was on Isiah, not Walsh.

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah is done..They wouldn't want him, they have a young team..They rather let Ropez walk than paying him 13 mil..In the Knicks signing Noah, the hope was that he was hampered injuries in the last few years like Rose, and he could regain some explosiveness and energy...But he doesn't have any of that...We have to eat his contract...I think you have the right idea tho..I would much rather go after Otto Porter who came into the league as a slasher, and an uptempo type player...Porter is shooting the three at a high percentage as you saw...

Again, is this the vision of the GM..Does he want to build a team of wing players as opposed to front line players??..I think we have to start looking at team direction...

Walsh made his share of mistakes as GM, but the way he cleared cap space, bad contracts, for LeBron, was a work of art. Walsh's long standing relationships with other GMs went a long way to moving all those bad deals without taking on someone else's long term headaches in return. Unfortunately we dont have anyone like that as a GM.

Those "bad" contracts were tied up into Zach Randolph- a 20/10 big man just entering his prime- and Jamal Crawford- a perennial 6th man of the year contender just entering his. His trading them for cents on the dollar wasn't masterful; it was the work of an old man whose judgment of the game had long since become outmoded. People criticize Isiah for destroying the Knicks; I'd argue that Walsh's tenure here was worse and set us on a trajectory of futility that we still appear to be on.

Remember that part of what screwed us out of finding a third star to play with Melo (i.e. CP3) wasn't the result of us blowing trade assets on Melo. It was the result of a plethora of missed opportunities that Walsh failed to capitalize on like...

1.) Missing out on the opportunity to dump Jared Jefferies earlier due to our reluctance to include Nate Robinson in a trade to the Kings. We then went on to trade Robinson the following season for 3 dudes who would be out of the league within 2 seasons and then squandered our 9th pick in the 2009 draft and 2012 draft just to offload Jared Jefferies. Which brings me to my next point...

2.) Trading Jared Jefferies at all. Why move the guy without any sort of guarantee that you'd have someone worth signing in 2010? Smart teams like the Heat in 2010 and Warriors in 2016 do stuff like that. Dumb teams, don't. Those picks we gave up- for the privilege of signing Raymond Felton- could've been saved and potentially position us for a CP3 trade in 2011. Imagine how different Melo's time here would've been with a running mate like Chris Paul! We would've been perennial contenders and capable of going toe-to-toe with the Heat during those years.

3.) Opting not to trade Eddy Curry earlier in his tenure in hopes of him recouping a higher return. The Pistons were reportedly interested in a Billups for Curry swap during the 2008 offseason but Walsh balked since Billups' contract ran past 2010 into the 2011 offseason.

3.) Not tanking the 2008-2009 season, which resulted in us losing the tie breaker to Golden State, who ended up with a higher pick and selecting Stephen Curry. The rest is history.

4.) Not trading David Lee for any discernable assets.

....there is more but I feel like I'm taking away from the thread by pushing the issue. But I just don't see how anyone can view Walsh's tenure here as being anything positive.

Opting not to trade the player (Curry) with one of the worst contracts in the league, who couldnt stay on the floor, or in shape. Dont consider an old rumor to be convincing.

Not tanking back then had absolutely nothing to do with Walsh and everything to do with Dolan. If anyone could have convinced Dolan back then to tank it would have been Isiah, but he didnt or couldn't, for whatever reason.

Ive pointed out twice already that Walsh made his share of mistakes. But Isiah tarnished the brand in a way that no exec in Knicks history has ever done. I dont believe thats really debatable. Its not just the deals, good and bad, its how you represent the franchise.

Walsh was a given a job to do, clear a boatload of cap room, and he did it in short order. That was in part because of his having a good relationship with other GMs.

That awful contract for Eddy Curry was on Isiah, not Walsh.

I'm not saying Isiah was a great GM. Like you say with Walsh, he's had his mistakes. BUT I'd clearly rank Walsh below Isiah in terms of basketball related moves. If it wasn't for the Suns correctly identifying Amare was a bad investment AND Melo wanting a higher national profile, we would've been an all-time terrible team. Like I've intimated, it takes more than just cap space to build a successful team and Walsh got cap space so recklessly that I think the value of it became moot.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. But you give me Eddy Curry at $9 million per as a bad contract, and I'll give you Amare at $17-$22 million per.

smackeddog wrote:Walsh drafts Jordan Hill at 7, passes up on Demar Derozen, jrue holiday at 17, Ty Lawson at 18, Jeff Teague at 19. demarre Carroll at 27....

Keep going. What about Toney Douglas over Danny Green, Patrick Beverly, Patty Mills, Jonas Jerebko, Dejuan Blair...

I've never seen a GM like Walsh consistently reach on talent. We consistently selected players that were ranked LOWER on draft boards (with exception to Jordan Hill who fell from 4th or so in 2009). For instance, the ONLY two teams in the league rumored to take Iman Shumpert in the first round in 2011 were the Knicks and Suns and it became clear that the Suns were not seriously considering it when they selected Kendall Marshall with their pick. We then took Iman at 17, with guys like JIMMY BUTLER, Tobias Harris, Reggie Jackson, Nikola Mirotic, Corey Joseph and Chandler Parsons still on the board. We get a 2nd round pick and select Josh Harrellson (who I liked). Isiah Thomas is still on the board.

This isn't to say that I didn't like Shumpert or any of Walsh's draft picks. At the time, I felt that they all had a good shot of becoming rotation players on a good team. But that point is irrelevant when we've been as bad as we've been and so desperately needed to maximize our return on VALUE. You liked Shumpert? Okay, trade down and get a lower first round pick and a second or some kind of scenario where multiple assets are returned so that maybe we could've gotten an Iman Shumpert and a Chandler Parsons; a Danilo Gallinari AND a Ryan Anderson/Serge Ibaka/Nicolas Batum/Courtney Lee; Toney Douglas AND Danny Green; Darren Collison AND our 2010 pick. Walsh never did that and consistently left value on the board, which is something I just can't forgive.

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah is done..They wouldn't want him, they have a young team..They rather let Ropez walk than paying him 13 mil..In the Knicks signing Noah, the hope was that he was hampered injuries in the last few years like Rose, and he could regain some explosiveness and energy...But he doesn't have any of that...We have to eat his contract...I think you have the right idea tho..I would much rather go after Otto Porter who came into the league as a slasher, and an uptempo type player...Porter is shooting the three at a high percentage as you saw...

Again, is this the vision of the GM..Does he want to build a team of wing players as opposed to front line players??..I think we have to start looking at team direction...

Walsh made his share of mistakes as GM, but the way he cleared cap space, bad contracts, for LeBron, was a work of art. Walsh's long standing relationships with other GMs went a long way to moving all those bad deals without taking on someone else's long term headaches in return. Unfortunately we dont have anyone like that as a GM.

Those "bad" contracts were tied up into Zach Randolph- a 20/10 big man just entering his prime- and Jamal Crawford- a perennial 6th man of the year contender just entering his. His trading them for cents on the dollar wasn't masterful; it was the work of an old man whose judgment of the game had long since become outmoded. People criticize Isiah for destroying the Knicks; I'd argue that Walsh's tenure here was worse and set us on a trajectory of futility that we still appear to be on.

Dantoni wanted to get rid of Randolph because he doesnt like centers with a low post game, and it was well before the Lebron sweepstakes. I didnt want Zach traded either but he was not going to mesh with MDA.

Dolan told him to clear cap room for LeBron and Walsh did just that. He didnt have the clout that Phil had to hold on to draft picks. No one on this board thought thst he could move all that cap space as quickly as he did.

To argue that Walsh tenure was worse than Isiah Thomas's is insane. The man was an absolute disgrace, as an executive, as a human being, as a man who threw his own daughter under the bus to save his ass, and a sexual harasser of women. Whatever mistakes Walsh made, and he made his share, he wasnt a scumbag.

If I recall correctly, we started that 2008-2009 season with a winning record at 6-3 (or so) on the backs of strong play from Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph. Randolph wasn't much of a roll man but was a threat as a pick and pop player. And during that era when teams were still plotting out 7ft scrubs as a matter of course, Randolph could've killed them in isolation play driving to the basket.

And I only recall hearing great things from D'Antoni about Randolph even years after the two ended their coach-player relationship. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/sports/basketball/16knicks.html

So again, I never understood Walsh's drive to offload the two as quickly as he did but then hang onto Eddy Curry and Jared Jefferies when they clearly should've been the first two to go. Yes, cap space was important but certainly not the end-all/be-all of BUILDING a TEAM. So while Walsh didn't sexually harrass anyone, he did worse job in producing any value for this team. For all the blunders Isiah made trading our picks, he still brought in guys like David Lee, Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford, Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, etc. that have key figures on successful teams and could've been part of something worthwhile in NY.

Thought we covered this quote. SSOL is about guard play, three point shooting, and Zach was an old school, pound the ball in the paint, post player. He was the antithesis of SSOL. Again, I didnt want him traded either, but it wasnt going to work with MDA.

Thomas did more than just sexually harass a woman, he enabled this type of behavior. Created a hostile work environment. Surprised Trump hasn't hired him yet. He did that at MSG, not in some bar after a few drinks too many.

Marbury and Crawford were a lousy backcourt. Marbury was a disaster. Chandler had no motor back then and only woke up when tne trade rumors started, then would settle back down to mediocrity when they died down.

He trade Doleac and KVH who were both playing well. Marbury and Doleac had a great pick and roll going. Nazr was a role player who was paid like a starter. Steve Francis was a disaster, so was Penny, I could go on.

Again, Isiah's tenure produced all-stars Zach Randolph and David Lee, perennial 6th man of the year candidate Jamal Crawford as well as consummate complimentary players in Wilson Chandler, Channing Frye and maybe Nate Robinson. What did Walsh's tenure here produce with those assets- the caliber of assets that Isiah never had to barter with when he began his career in NY?

Its one thing to bring big names to NY, its entirely another to bring in big names together who will fit. Isiah was a better than average scout. But he assembled teams like it was NBA2K, with very little thought about how the players game, personalities, would mesh. He started out well I thought, but then (like Phil) he got too ambitious, wanted too much too soon, and things snowballed from there.

Walsh's main task was to entice LeBron to come to NY, even if it wasn't realistic. My problem with Walsh was that he didnt focus enough on the draft with the Jordan Hill pick, felt rushed. Chris Wilcox was already on the team and had the same skill set. It was all about LeBron. Thats what Dolan wanted, but he still should have done more research.

If you gave them both a team with plenty of draft picks and cap room, Isiah might have a better draft, but I believe Walsh would assemble a better team. He kept a small market team like the Pacers relevant for many years with limited resources.

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah is done..They wouldn't want him, they have a young team..They rather let Ropez walk than paying him 13 mil..In the Knicks signing Noah, the hope was that he was hampered injuries in the last few years like Rose, and he could regain some explosiveness and energy...But he doesn't have any of that...We have to eat his contract...I think you have the right idea tho..I would much rather go after Otto Porter who came into the league as a slasher, and an uptempo type player...Porter is shooting the three at a high percentage as you saw...

Again, is this the vision of the GM..Does he want to build a team of wing players as opposed to front line players??..I think we have to start looking at team direction...

Walsh made his share of mistakes as GM, but the way he cleared cap space, bad contracts, for LeBron, was a work of art. Walsh's long standing relationships with other GMs went a long way to moving all those bad deals without taking on someone else's long term headaches in return. Unfortunately we dont have anyone like that as a GM.

Those "bad" contracts were tied up into Zach Randolph- a 20/10 big man just entering his prime- and Jamal Crawford- a perennial 6th man of the year contender just entering his. His trading them for cents on the dollar wasn't masterful; it was the work of an old man whose judgment of the game had long since become outmoded. People criticize Isiah for destroying the Knicks; I'd argue that Walsh's tenure here was worse and set us on a trajectory of futility that we still appear to be on.

Dantoni wanted to get rid of Randolph because he doesnt like centers with a low post game, and it was well before the Lebron sweepstakes. I didnt want Zach traded either but he was not going to mesh with MDA.

Dolan told him to clear cap room for LeBron and Walsh did just that. He didnt have the clout that Phil had to hold on to draft picks. No one on this board thought thst he could move all that cap space as quickly as he did.

To argue that Walsh tenure was worse than Isiah Thomas's is insane. The man was an absolute disgrace, as an executive, as a human being, as a man who threw his own daughter under the bus to save his ass, and a sexual harasser of women. Whatever mistakes Walsh made, and he made his share, he wasnt a scumbag.

If I recall correctly, we started that 2008-2009 season with a winning record at 6-3 (or so) on the backs of strong play from Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph. Randolph wasn't much of a roll man but was a threat as a pick and pop player. And during that era when teams were still plotting out 7ft scrubs as a matter of course, Randolph could've killed them in isolation play driving to the basket.

And I only recall hearing great things from D'Antoni about Randolph even years after the two ended their coach-player relationship. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/sports/basketball/16knicks.html

So again, I never understood Walsh's drive to offload the two as quickly as he did but then hang onto Eddy Curry and Jared Jefferies when they clearly should've been the first two to go. Yes, cap space was important but certainly not the end-all/be-all of BUILDING a TEAM. So while Walsh didn't sexually harrass anyone, he did worse job in producing any value for this team. For all the blunders Isiah made trading our picks, he still brought in guys like David Lee, Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford, Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, etc. that have key figures on successful teams and could've been part of something worthwhile in NY.

Thought we covered this quote. SSOL is about guard play, three point shooting, and Zach was an old school, pound the ball in the paint, post player. He was the antithesis of SSOL. Again, I didnt want him traded either, but it wasnt going to work with MDA.

Thomas did more than just sexually harass a woman, he enabled this type of behavior. Created a hostile work environment. Surprised Trump hasn't hired him yet. He did that at MSG, not in some bar after a few drinks too many.

Marbury and Crawford were a lousy backcourt. Marbury was a disaster. Chandler had no motor back then and only woke up when tne trade rumors started, then would settle back down to mediocrity when they died down.

He trade Doleac and KVH who were both playing well. Marbury and Doleac had a great pick and roll going. Nazr was a role player who was paid like a starter. Steve Francis was a disaster, so was Penny, I could go on.

Again, Isiah's tenure produced all-stars Zach Randolph and David Lee, perennial 6th man of the year candidate Jamal Crawford as well as consummate complimentary players in Wilson Chandler, Channing Frye and maybe Nate Robinson. What did Walsh's tenure here produce with those assets- the caliber of assets that Isiah never had to barter with when he began his career in NY?

Its one thing to bring big names to NY, its entirely another to bring in big names together who will fit. Isiah was a better than average scout. But he assembled teams like it was NBA2K, with very little thought about how the players game, personalities, would mesh. He started out well I thought, but then (like Phil) he got too ambitious, wanted too much too soon, and things snowballed from there.

Walsh's main task was to entice LeBron to come to NY, even if it wasn't realistic. My problem with Walsh was that he didnt focus enough on the draft with the Jordan Hill pick, felt rushed. Chris Wilcox was already on the team and had the same skill set. It was all about LeBron. Thats what Dolan wanted, but he still should have done more research.

If you gave them both a team with plenty of draft picks and cap room, Isiah might have a better draft, but I believe Walsh would assemble a better team. He kept a small market team like the Pacers relevant for many years with limited resources.

..."he (Donnie Walsh) kept a small market team like the Pacers relevant for man years" earlier in his career.* The Pacers were in a horrible spot when Walsh left them, due to piss-poor decisions. I don't think they cracked .400 ball for his last 3-4 seasons there. And nothing about Walsh's tenure here did anything to reassure me that his judgment was still sound. In a vacuum, I would never expect him to win individual trades/draft selections like Isiah. Yes, Isiah built a 2K-like team but at least we still had assets, which is more than could be said before he got here and after Walsh's atay with the team.

Sure, lets talk history. While Isiah drafted well for the craptors, he feuded with his coach, his owner, tried to take the team from him, and when that failed, he bailed on the team during the season. He ran the CBA into the ground, it had been around since the 1940s.

One GM had a long track record of accomplishment, including drafting an HOFer, the other had a long track record of failures, self aggrandizement, very questionable behavior (if not deplorable) and greed.

Neither got the job done, and in the end thats all that matters. Not the bloated contracts they left behind, or the players who didnt show enough in NY. I would say Isiah was worse, fans were much happier to see Isiah go, much happier.