dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Good listen, all their points and the RPM system is spot on. Nothing wrong with being an optimistic homer fan, but computer projections are based on statistics and numbers, so don't hate on them for Math and probability.

The Knicks should take this 34 win RPM projection and put it on their locker room bulletin board. Use it for motivation. Stop bitching about it and ball out. Knicks fans that are expecting contenders have to lower their expectations or you'll be heart broken. They'll be better than 32 wins, but are they that much better to contend in the east? Nope. But if the Knicks main players play at least 75% of the games, KP ascends to All Star status, no distractions, and team gel time is accelerated somehow from the 15-20 games it takes most newly assembled teams....then maybe 40-45 wins and a playoff berth could be in reach.

Otherwise all these prognosticators are on the money.

jackson had a choice to go with youth and a complete rebuild around kp6, or kowtow to the 124 million dollar man and jerk the team into win-now mode. jackson went with the latter, and the result is what we see here. a brittle pg on a one year, another underachieving pg coming back from achilles and on his fourth team, a truly great center who is on a four year deal but is liable to be limited to reserve minutes and will be good for perhaps 60 games. all for the sake of helping melo become relevant in the next 2 seasons. he has one conference finals appearance, maybe he gets a second chance in the next two seasons. lets just hope it isn't at the expense of kp6.

factoring for injury the knicks are going to win between 38-43 games. being a fan doesn't require being unrealistic, and projection models that factor in injury history are as reliable as anything out there. i will say that espn's 25 win projection last season was rubbish, and i had the knicks at 34 wins. my prediction exceeded theirs by a healthy 9 games. this year the difference is closer-- knicks should win 38 wins.

the knicks don't get to 38 wins drastic measures involving carmelo anthony should take place summer of 2017. just sayin'

How is it that the Knicks should only win 6 more games than last year? What is it about this new roster that makes them such a sorry team in your opinion? Is it going to be the coaching? The overall guard play? Please explain how the team is basically the same as last year with a bit of better luck health wise cuz last year's team could easily have won 6 more games minus key injuries. So basically your point and that of many of the Analysts is that the team is the same.

there's two ways they can underachieve:

1) hornacek departs from the inside-out aspect of the triangle and allows the guards to run the show in a quasi-triangle. since i find both guards to be wanting as distributors and shooters and defenders, the likelihood is that their play will drag the team down.
2) hornacek tries to get the guards to be part of prioritizing frontcourt playmaking but they prove capable of contributing in this way, taking too many bad shots and making bad passes because they have left their feet on ****amamie drives.

then there's the probability of injury to rose, melo, jennings, and noah. that too is factored into most of the advanced projection models.

as a student of the game, i see a very talented passing front court in noah and melo, and yes kp6... and a not very talented passing backcourt. if i am the coach i play and coach to the roster's strengths, not cater to it's weaknesses. if you hybridize too much, tweak too much, you run the risk of never establishing an identity as a squad. if hornacek is smart he will avoid this at all costs.

1. Hornacek is going to make smart offensive decisions. He's one of the smartest offensive coaches and Steve Kerr respects him and actually stole plays from Hornacek. So I have idea why you think he wouldn't make smart decisions with the talent he has.

The Half Court Triangle set is only part of what this team is going to be looking to implement. Hornacek has stated that he intends to expand the spacing of the typical Triangle positioning so that there is greater spacing. He also said he intends to incorporate more PnR into the Triangle. In the end the use of the Passing Pivot is still going to be a huge part of the offense. It's not going to be only PG driven offense.

2. Hornacek is a Numbers guy and he will figure out what is the most efficient way for his players to play and put them in position to play that way. Rose and Jennings can both handle the ball and attack a defense off a screen. Jennings is capable of making passes effectively.

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I listened to the first few minutes then deleted it. I don't want to hear two douche bags making fun of Knicks fans and calling Derek Rose a d league player.

So what you mean to say is that you are adverse to the truth?

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I listened to the first few minutes then deleted it. I don't want to hear two douche bags making fun of Knicks fans and calling Derek Rose a d league player.

So what you mean to say is that you are adverse to the truth?

How the F is it true that what those guys were saying was "the truth"? A lot of what those guys said was just their opinion. When talking about what they think the Knicks will do in the future that most certainly is the case. Sure if they stated statistical facts from last season then that's one thing but anything about what the team will do this coming season is just their conjecture like anyone else.

Also there is very clearly a certain bias amongst many media guys. That's just how it is. They're down on the team but that doesn't mean this current roster won't play well this season. Heck a lot of these guys aren't even making educated guesses. They're just going on their feelings about specific players. So if they don't like Rose or Melo that colors their opinion of the team but it's not based on any deep observation about how the individual players will fit together playing under Hornacek. When you don't even mention Jennings or Hornacek's style of coaching it's hard to take seriously.

They agreed that the Wizards and Hornets were going to be better than the Knicks. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bucks. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better but one of the guys saying no definitively and another saying it was a toss up. They said the Pacers would be better than the Knicks even tho Bontemps said he didn't like the Pacers and felt they would not make the playoffs.

They joked that the Sixers might be better than the Knicks. They agreed that the Hawks would be better. They gave the Heat the nod over the Knicks if Bosh plays. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bulls but were reluctant to really give the Knicks the nod. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better than the Magic, Bontemps says the Magic will be better but I think Windhorst felt the Knicks, Bucks, Magic and Pacers would be in a bunch around 9-13th.

They love KP and feel he'll get better but complained that Rose and Melo will stunt him. They ripped the overall defense of the team, especially if Noah isn't healthy. They only gave Lee any credit for his D. They laughed at fans for thinking the team could win 50 games or get to the ECF's. They felt the pieces don't fit and that they're old and broke down. They pretty much agreed the Knicks would finish around 13th.

They mentioned some love for Hornacek but questioned what kind of autonomy he would have. They said he came in as a weak head coach and compared him with Thibs who they said is strong and Walton. They feel cuz he had to take on Rambis and use the Triangle that he's in a weak position.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I listened to the first few minutes then deleted it. I don't want to hear two douche bags making fun of Knicks fans and calling Derek Rose a d league player.

So what you mean to say is that you are adverse to the truth?

How the F is it true that what those guys were saying was "the truth"? A lot of what those guys said was just their opinion. When talking about what they think the Knicks will do in the future that most certainly is the case. Sure if they stated statistical facts from last season then that's one thing but anything about what the team will do this coming season is just their conjecture like anyone else.

Also there is very clearly a certain bias amongst many media guys. That's just how it is. They're down on the team but that doesn't mean this current roster won't play well this season. Heck a lot of these guys aren't even making educated guesses. They're just going on their feelings about specific players. So if they don't like Rose or Melo that colors their opinion of the team but it's not based on any deep observation about how the individual players will fit together playing under Hornacek. When you don't even mention Jennings or Hornacek's style of coaching it's hard to take seriously.

They agreed that the Wizards and Hornets were going to be better than the Knicks. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bucks. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better but one of the guys saying no definitively and another saying it was a toss up. They said the Pacers would be better than the Knicks even tho Bontemps said he didn't like the Pacers and felt they would not make the playoffs.

They joked that the Sixers might be better than the Knicks. They agreed that the Hawks would be better. They gave the Heat the nod over the Knicks if Bosh plays. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bulls but were reluctant to really give the Knicks the nod. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better than the Magic, Bontemps says the Magic will be better but I think Windhorst felt the Knicks, Bucks, Magic and Pacers would be in a bunch around 9-13th.

They love KP and feel he'll get better but complained that Rose and Melo will stunt him. They ripped the overall defense of the team, especially if Noah isn't healthy. They only gave Lee any credit for his D. They laughed at fans for thinking the team could win 50 games or get to the ECF's. They felt the pieces don't fit and that they're old and broke down. They pretty much agreed the Knicks would finish around 13th.

They mentioned some love for Hornacek but questioned what kind of autonomy he would have. They said he came in as a weak head coach and compared him with Thibs who they said is strong and Walton. They feel cuz he had to take on Rambis and use the Triangle that he's in a weak position.

i thought it was kinda fair. I dont agree with everything they said but it wasnt outrageous. Lets be honest if things were always as great as you make it seem then we should have been winning 60 games every year

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I listened to the first few minutes then deleted it. I don't want to hear two douche bags making fun of Knicks fans and calling Derek Rose a d league player.

So what you mean to say is that you are adverse to the truth?

How the F is it true that what those guys were saying was "the truth"? A lot of what those guys said was just their opinion. When talking about what they think the Knicks will do in the future that most certainly is the case. Sure if they stated statistical facts from last season then that's one thing but anything about what the team will do this coming season is just their conjecture like anyone else.

Also there is very clearly a certain bias amongst many media guys. That's just how it is. They're down on the team but that doesn't mean this current roster won't play well this season. Heck a lot of these guys aren't even making educated guesses. They're just going on their feelings about specific players. So if they don't like Rose or Melo that colors their opinion of the team but it's not based on any deep observation about how the individual players will fit together playing under Hornacek. When you don't even mention Jennings or Hornacek's style of coaching it's hard to take seriously.

They agreed that the Wizards and Hornets were going to be better than the Knicks. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bucks. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better but one of the guys saying no definitively and another saying it was a toss up. They said the Pacers would be better than the Knicks even tho Bontemps said he didn't like the Pacers and felt they would not make the playoffs.

They joked that the Sixers might be better than the Knicks. They agreed that the Hawks would be better. They gave the Heat the nod over the Knicks if Bosh plays. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bulls but were reluctant to really give the Knicks the nod. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better than the Magic, Bontemps says the Magic will be better but I think Windhorst felt the Knicks, Bucks, Magic and Pacers would be in a bunch around 9-13th.

They love KP and feel he'll get better but complained that Rose and Melo will stunt him. They ripped the overall defense of the team, especially if Noah isn't healthy. They only gave Lee any credit for his D. They laughed at fans for thinking the team could win 50 games or get to the ECF's. They felt the pieces don't fit and that they're old and broke down. They pretty much agreed the Knicks would finish around 13th.

They mentioned some love for Hornacek but questioned what kind of autonomy he would have. They said he came in as a weak head coach and compared him with Thibs who they said is strong and Walton. They feel cuz he had to take on Rambis and use the Triangle that he's in a weak position.

i thought it was kinda fair. I dont agree with everything they said but it wasnt outrageous. Lets be honest if things were always as great as you make it seem then we should have been winning 60 games every year

What did you think was fair? I thought Bontempts presented as a guy that just hated the Knicks. I didn't think he backed up any of his points. Windhorst was much more soft spoken but I totally disagreed about his points about Hornacek and I thought it almost seemed like he was reaching to find common ground with the guys that were so negative.

its tough to be too positive when you win 49 games in 2 years. Like i always say if you want the accolades then you gotta win

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I listened to the first few minutes then deleted it. I don't want to hear two douche bags making fun of Knicks fans and calling Derek Rose a d league player.

So what you mean to say is that you are adverse to the truth?

How the F is it true that what those guys were saying was "the truth"? A lot of what those guys said was just their opinion. When talking about what they think the Knicks will do in the future that most certainly is the case. Sure if they stated statistical facts from last season then that's one thing but anything about what the team will do this coming season is just their conjecture like anyone else.

Also there is very clearly a certain bias amongst many media guys. That's just how it is. They're down on the team but that doesn't mean this current roster won't play well this season. Heck a lot of these guys aren't even making educated guesses. They're just going on their feelings about specific players. So if they don't like Rose or Melo that colors their opinion of the team but it's not based on any deep observation about how the individual players will fit together playing under Hornacek. When you don't even mention Jennings or Hornacek's style of coaching it's hard to take seriously.

They agreed that the Wizards and Hornets were going to be better than the Knicks. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bucks. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better but one of the guys saying no definitively and another saying it was a toss up. They said the Pacers would be better than the Knicks even tho Bontemps said he didn't like the Pacers and felt they would not make the playoffs.

They joked that the Sixers might be better than the Knicks. They agreed that the Hawks would be better. They gave the Heat the nod over the Knicks if Bosh plays. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bulls but were reluctant to really give the Knicks the nod. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better than the Magic, Bontemps says the Magic will be better but I think Windhorst felt the Knicks, Bucks, Magic and Pacers would be in a bunch around 9-13th.

They love KP and feel he'll get better but complained that Rose and Melo will stunt him. They ripped the overall defense of the team, especially if Noah isn't healthy. They only gave Lee any credit for his D. They laughed at fans for thinking the team could win 50 games or get to the ECF's. They felt the pieces don't fit and that they're old and broke down. They pretty much agreed the Knicks would finish around 13th.

They mentioned some love for Hornacek but questioned what kind of autonomy he would have. They said he came in as a weak head coach and compared him with Thibs who they said is strong and Walton. They feel cuz he had to take on Rambis and use the Triangle that he's in a weak position.

i thought it was kinda fair. I dont agree with everything they said but it wasnt outrageous. Lets be honest if things were always as great as you make it seem then we should have been winning 60 games every year

What did you think was fair? I thought Bontempts presented as a guy that just hated the Knicks. I didn't think he backed up any of his points. Windhorst was much more soft spoken but I totally disagreed about his points about Hornacek and I thought it almost seemed like he was reaching to find common ground with the guys that were so negative.

its tough to be too positive when you win 49 games in 2 years. Like i always say if you want the accolades then you gotta win

New coach in Jeff Hornacek. He's bringing a new approach to the Triangle with more spacing, uptempo and more PnR.
New guards in Rose, Jennings, Holiday and possibly Randle and Baker. They bring WAY more scoring and breakdown ability.
New bigs in Noah, Willy, Ndour, Kuz and possibly Plumlee.

I see mostly upgrades up and down the roster. IMO the Knicks fans that are wallowing in fear and doubt are simply not taking a fresh look at this roster. I take a fresh look every year and regardless of how the season pans out I am not basing my feelings on the past teams, which in this case have very little in common. It's different if we're talking about the same core guys but we're not in this case with the exception of our best players Melo and KP. The only good player we lost was RoLo. Everyone else was relatively replaceable.

So if you are giving you assessment please don't bring up the past Knicks teams as if it really has any bearing on this current roster's potential. It's OK to compare in terms of team makeup but not to bring the problems or failures of the past teams and put that on this team. The Media loves to bring up the past Knicks failures when assessing the new team.

callmened wrote:this team is improved. theres no doubt about that. no i wont bring up the past of knicks bad luck. my only concern is the injury past of rose and noah. i think thats a legit concern...both looked like shadows of themselves in recent yrs. id be surprised if either noah or rose play over 65 games. another concern is the weak bench. i really really really we wish we kept gallo. instead were left with jennings, an erratic pg (even though ill admit he has matured after his achilles injury) and lance (who also had injuries). i wont trust willie g or the lithuanian kid until they prove they can play in the NBA

so this team has a lot of concerns. but what they have going for them is MELO, KP and an overall solid starting line up. i think at its peak they can compete with anyone in the east. they have upgraded at every single position and plus they finally have a decent coach (i HOPE he doesnt have to play the triangle - we assume hell change it and make it his own way...but we dont know that. we dont know anything. all we can do is hope). the best thing about this team is that KPorzingus is young and i really think he will get better and better. i think they will peak at around 45 wins...maybe win a rd in the playoffs and thats it. thats good enough to entertain an inpatient knicks fan base. but there's no real lasting power. all i care is to develop KP

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I listened to the first few minutes then deleted it. I don't want to hear two douche bags making fun of Knicks fans and calling Derek Rose a d league player.

So what you mean to say is that you are adverse to the truth?

How the F is it true that what those guys were saying was "the truth"? A lot of what those guys said was just their opinion. When talking about what they think the Knicks will do in the future that most certainly is the case. Sure if they stated statistical facts from last season then that's one thing but anything about what the team will do this coming season is just their conjecture like anyone else.

Also there is very clearly a certain bias amongst many media guys. That's just how it is. They're down on the team but that doesn't mean this current roster won't play well this season. Heck a lot of these guys aren't even making educated guesses. They're just going on their feelings about specific players. So if they don't like Rose or Melo that colors their opinion of the team but it's not based on any deep observation about how the individual players will fit together playing under Hornacek. When you don't even mention Jennings or Hornacek's style of coaching it's hard to take seriously.

They agreed that the Wizards and Hornets were going to be better than the Knicks. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bucks. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better but one of the guys saying no definitively and another saying it was a toss up. They said the Pacers would be better than the Knicks even tho Bontemps said he didn't like the Pacers and felt they would not make the playoffs.

They joked that the Sixers might be better than the Knicks. They agreed that the Hawks would be better. They gave the Heat the nod over the Knicks if Bosh plays. They split on whether the Knicks were better than the Bulls but were reluctant to really give the Knicks the nod. Begley said the Knicks were gonna be better than the Magic, Bontemps says the Magic will be better but I think Windhorst felt the Knicks, Bucks, Magic and Pacers would be in a bunch around 9-13th.

They love KP and feel he'll get better but complained that Rose and Melo will stunt him. They ripped the overall defense of the team, especially if Noah isn't healthy. They only gave Lee any credit for his D. They laughed at fans for thinking the team could win 50 games or get to the ECF's. They felt the pieces don't fit and that they're old and broke down. They pretty much agreed the Knicks would finish around 13th.

They mentioned some love for Hornacek but questioned what kind of autonomy he would have. They said he came in as a weak head coach and compared him with Thibs who they said is strong and Walton. They feel cuz he had to take on Rambis and use the Triangle that he's in a weak position.

i thought it was kinda fair. I dont agree with everything they said but it wasnt outrageous. Lets be honest if things were always as great as you make it seem then we should have been winning 60 games every year

What did you think was fair? I thought Bontempts presented as a guy that just hated the Knicks. I didn't think he backed up any of his points. Windhorst was much more soft spoken but I totally disagreed about his points about Hornacek and I thought it almost seemed like he was reaching to find common ground with the guys that were so negative.

its tough to be too positive when you win 49 games in 2 years. Like i always say if you want the accolades then you gotta win

This is what pisses me off. You can't lump the last 2 years or the last 15 years together with this year's roster. This roster is mostly new!!! So IMO if you are coming into your evaluation based off of the previous 2 years, you're already off base. We didn't have Hornacke, Rose, Lee, Noah or Jennings last year and I think when media drag the past into this it makes no sense unless we brought back the exact same roster or close to it.

New coach in Jeff Hornacek. He's bringing a new approach to the Triangle with more spacing, uptempo and more PnR.
New guards in Rose, Jennings, Holiday and possibly Randle and Baker. They bring WAY more scoring and breakdown ability.
New bigs in Noah, Willy, Ndour, Kuz and possibly Plumlee.

I see mostly upgrades up and down the roster. IMO the Knicks fans that are wallowing in fear and doubt are simply not taking a fresh look at this roster. I take a fresh look every year and regardless of how the season pans out I am not basing my feelings on the past teams, which in this case have very little in common. It's different if we're talking about the same core guys but we're not in this case with the exception of our best players Melo and KP. The only good player we lost was RoLo. Everyone else was relatively replaceable.

So if you are giving you assessment please don't bring up the past Knicks teams as if it really has any bearing on this current roster's potential. It's OK to compare in terms of team makeup but not to bring the problems or failures of the past teams and put that on this team. The Media loves to bring up the past Knicks failures when assessing the new team.