mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

I have a simple yes or no question. It doesn't need another answer or explanation of the answer, just a one word response.

Can you acknowledge Rose's performance has been affected by injury, he is relatively young and it is possible if not probably like a Grant Hill his career from that perspective could turn around and then his performance did improve in the final half of 2014-15.

Yes or no?

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

the only blindness here is you. You need to step away from BBreference's advanced page and go watch some basketball. Rose the MVP may never be coming back but Rose the all star still makes plenty of appearances.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

attacking me instead of my argument is a weak position.

Jose stinks less because he takes and misses many fewer shots. Rose may look really pretty to you creating really bad acrobatic misses but misses are misses.

Its really not me against everyone ... I have some less blinded posters who see how bad Rose is (yellow, gustav, bonn). Not sure they would agree with my Jose vs Rose take (aside from Bonn maybe)

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

the only blindness here is you. You need to step away from BBreference's advanced page and go watch some basketball. Rose the MVP may never be coming back but Rose the all star still makes plenty of appearances.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

attacking me instead of my argument is a weak position.

Jose stinks less because he takes and misses many fewer shots. Rose may look really pretty to you creating really bad acrobatic misses but misses are misses.

Its really not me against everyone ... I have some less blinded posters who see how bad Rose is (yellow, gustav, bonn). Not sure they would agree with my Jose vs Rose take (aside from Bonn maybe)

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

wow... suddenly your verbiage has changed.

it hasn't changed.

fishmike, keep it civil as I have. thx

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

Yeah, I would re-word Fish's statement: "On offense the last 3 years, Rose has hurt his teams much more than Calderon has." He averaged 96 points per 100 possessions the past 3 years, while Calderon averaged 114. You could say Rose has better shot creation and that helps his teams beyond what the stats measure, but it doesn't make up for twenty points out of every 100 possessions.

or you could simply say "Rose has been hurt and played poorly for stretches that has really hurt his stats." You could then even say that based on those injuries you do not believe this was a worthwhile risk.

We all know why he think's Jose is better, but in reality he's not *thinking* at all. He's looking at advanced stats and simply cant fathom how Rose could help. He's even willing to say things like "Jose is better" while trolling threads about it.

With Lopez replacing Noah and Calderon replacing Rose I look forward to seeing the Bulls upcoming success as they have upgraded two key positions! Funny stuff.

It depends on what you mean by "better player." I bet if you break it down, you and Mreinman wouldn't even be disagreeing. By better player, which of these do you mean?
A - Who has performed better the last 3 years?
B - Who has more potential if healthy?
C - Who would win a game of one-on-one?
D - Who is flashier and more talented?

We could list many more possible meanings too.

Exactly, this is hopelessly subjective.

What we have here are people who have been dead wrong before and recently arguing their 100% right this time.

Curious exercise.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

Yeah, I would re-word Fish's statement: "On offense the last 3 years, Rose has hurt his teams much more than Calderon has." He averaged 96 points per 100 possessions the past 3 years, while Calderon averaged 114. You could say Rose has better shot creation and that helps his teams beyond what the stats measure, but it doesn't make up for twenty points out of every 100 possessions.

or you could simply say "Rose has been hurt and played poorly for stretches that has really hurt his stats." You could then even say that based on those injuries you do not believe this was a worthwhile risk.

We all know why he think's Jose is better, but in reality he's not *thinking* at all. He's looking at advanced stats and simply cant fathom how Rose could help. He's even willing to say things like "Jose is better" while trolling threads about it.

With Lopez replacing Noah and Calderon replacing Rose I look forward to seeing the Bulls upcoming success as they have upgraded two key positions! Funny stuff.

It depends on what you mean by "better player." I bet if you break it down, you and Mreinman wouldn't even be disagreeing. By better player, which of these do you mean?
A - Who has performed better the last 3 years?
B - Who has more potential if healthy?
C - Who would win a game of one-on-one?
D - Who is flashier and more talented?

We could list many more possible meanings too.

The advanced stat argument is great.. here's a time where its clear if you are using those #s to outline that Jose has been better you really are lacking understanding on the game and those numbers in the first place.

Why does Jose have good advanced stats? He never turns the ball over. When he shoots its for a good %. When he shoots the 3 its for a really good %. Low usage for ball handler. Basically Jose doesn't make any mistakes and his shooting is efficient so his advanced #s are good. The first reason (and what should be the ending) is the role. The simple fact is Rose has missed a ton of shots that Jose isn't good enough to take in the first place. Rose's role has been that of primary scorer, something he has struggled with as the injuries have added up. Rose has NOT been consistent in that role, and has struggled at times with it and it has hurt his #s.

If Rose only passed, took care of the ball and only took wide open looks his advanced #s would be great also. Bulls needed more.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

the only blindness here is you. You need to step away from BBreference's advanced page and go watch some basketball. Rose the MVP may never be coming back but Rose the all star still makes plenty of appearances.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

attacking me instead of my argument is a weak position.

Jose stinks less because he takes and misses many fewer shots. Rose may look really pretty to you creating really bad acrobatic misses but misses are misses.

Its really not me against everyone ... I have some less blinded posters who see how bad Rose is (yellow, gustav, bonn). Not sure they would agree with my Jose vs Rose take (aside from Bonn maybe)

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

wow... suddenly your verbiage has changed.

it hasn't changed.

fishmike, keep it civil as I have. thx

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

the only blindness here is you. You need to step away from BBreference's advanced page and go watch some basketball. Rose the MVP may never be coming back but Rose the all star still makes plenty of appearances.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

attacking me instead of my argument is a weak position.

Jose stinks less because he takes and misses many fewer shots. Rose may look really pretty to you creating really bad acrobatic misses but misses are misses.

Its really not me against everyone ... I have some less blinded posters who see how bad Rose is (yellow, gustav, bonn). Not sure they would agree with my Jose vs Rose take (aside from Bonn maybe)

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

wow... suddenly your verbiage has changed.

it hasn't changed.

fishmike, keep it civil as I have. thx

Im super civil.

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

That's a big change in verbiage from pounding home how Calderon is a superior player.

careers?

who was the better player last year?

Exhibit A: Point guard/team leader on a 42 win team

Exhibit B: Point guard/team leader on a 32 win team.

Some things aren't so easy to qualify.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

the only blindness here is you. You need to step away from BBreference's advanced page and go watch some basketball. Rose the MVP may never be coming back but Rose the all star still makes plenty of appearances.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

Bingo. +1

seconded.

I ran advanced stats on mreinmans posts and it says his "Jose is better" argument is the stupidest.

Bonn1997 wrote:
The thing that I believe makes the trade really lopsided though is that we through in a first round pick (Grant). We already gave up the best player in the deal (OK, let's re-phrase it as the person who has played the best the past several years).

And got Chicago to take the worse player in the deal and got a guy who can play some backcourt D in return

There are Knicks fans who hate the deal and Knicks fans who love the deal.

The are Bulls fans who hate the deal and Bulls fans who love the deal.

There are members of the NBA media who hate the deal and members of the NBA media who love the deal.

I'm just chalking this one up to hopelessly subjective until 2016-17 actually happens.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.