meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Rose trade was good. Downside was very low upside is high

coming from someone who wants to be right about monroe being 100x better than lopez and 1000+ posts and threads reiterating.

lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Lopez is a quality player. But there is a healthy supply of big men available. I can't see a team looking to give up any real value for Lopez when they can target the many other big men without giveing up assets.

Big men available at what price? Gaining cap room and then being forced to spend it to get a servicable big is going to make us better how?

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Rose trade was good. Downside was very low upside is high

coming from someone who wants to be right about monroe being 100x better than lopez and 1000+ posts and threads reiterating.

lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Lopez is a quality player. But there is a healthy supply of big men available. I can't see a team looking to give up any real value for Lopez when they can target the many other big men without giveing up assets.

Big men available at what price? Gaining cap room and then being forced to spend it to get a servicable big is going to make us better how?

Pretty much your biggest issues seems to be the cost of replacing RoLo. You're worried about replacing RoLo when we seriously addressed our PG spot. We don't have to match RoLo's exact output as long as we are close. We traded for better balance and fit for how the team wants to play. RoLo doesn't run a team, which is more important for our overall success. The Knicks will address the C spot but this was a more important position for the team as a whole. My guess is that we're gonna see this team play with KP at the 5 a LOT. There are very few teams that aren't looking to play smaller and even fewer teams that have a legit Center that we have to worry about.

You are right, I am more worried about the cost of replacing Rolo than losing him. It's always hard to see us part ways with a good character team guy. not even saying Rose doesn't make us better, but that the benefit of the is retraining flexibility and we maybe overstating the flexibility. Yes, if you don't tree sign Rose you have 60MM but add the insanity unfolds you may then need 30MM each for PG and a center.This does go away from building fit the long term.

Last year we had Melo as a 20 points a night weapon, a very talented but up and down in regards to a 2nd option in Porzingis and no 3rd option - it was by committee some times Afflalo other times Lopez. We had no attacking guard who could run screen rolls or early offence. In contrast now we have a base to work with. Melo is still who he is, I think it's reasonable to expect KP to be a more consistent 2nd option maybe give us 17 ppg, and then we have Rose to attack the defence off the dribble create some early good looks and give us 3 guys who the defense has to worry about.

All we need now do be a really competitive and good team are two shot makers around KP-Melo-Rose. Players that can catch and shoot open 3 pointers or finish well inside as a big guy.

Even if we sign Allen Crabbe and Dwight Howard, we have enough talent there to compete with any team on a night to night basis.

Last years weaknesses were

- Point guard could not attack a defender or get into the paint.
- Not enough points or shots in the paint
- No 3rd option, inconsistent 2nd option
- No real transition or early offence

With a year older KP, Melo, Rose and 30$M spent on supporting talent I will be surprised if we can't get this team to make a decent playoff run next year.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

WHY should we base Rose's next season on the last 3 years??? Should we just ignore the Surgeries and rehab that limited his production? He has a chance to play better than his overall numbers this year would suggest. That's the reason why i've been taking a deeper look at how he progressed. Now I know his Advanced Stats don't paint a good picture at all, but I would remind you again that Rose was coming back from Torn Meniscus Surgery and Orbital Fracture. That was a huge factor in Rose playing so poorly. If you just assume that after a summer without having to heal from a surgery, Rose still can't make improvement in his game then be my guest. I tend to think he has a good shot to be better next season.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

Yeah, I would re-word Fish's statement: "On offense the last 3 years, Rose has hurt his teams much more than Calderon has." He averaged 96 points per 100 possessions the past 3 years, while Calderon averaged 114. You could say Rose has better shot creation and that helps his teams beyond what the stats measure, but it doesn't make up for twenty points out of every 100 possessions.

please visit more often!

Its me against the UK world here LOL