yellowboy90 wrote:What is real plus minus could someone explain it to me. How is it rated?

Geezzz...how dumb can a guy be!

It is the opposite of the fake plus minus!

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:gonna need a much better PG if we are to grow properly though

man, you are quick with the obvious

LOL

when I agree with you in principal. I could care less about wins / losses this year (aside from how good our pick is that we gift toronto). I care how we grow and it kills me that we can't realize how good our roster can be since our guards are so bad and creating.

Our Guards: We can't beat the press. We can't use picks properly. We don't get to the line.

Our kids can't grow properly this way.

Oh contraire.

It seems to me that everyone is focused on Melo and what he is doing as well as Fisher's rotations and sub patterns. While there is much to be said about those things, big picture may be a better viewpoint.

KP is growing each team, and the coaching staff and front office has him in almost the perfect environment. Gallo performing. Team is playing defense (when was the last time this going to overshadowed by anything else?)

The team is 8-10 and I guarantee you that no one saw that record coming at this point in the season. No one. And I still want to say that that Knicks have had one of the hardest schedules in the league, top 10 for sure.

The Knicks have problems closing out games. They have guard problems. They have bench problems.

Do they have defensive problems? Do they quit? Are they healthy yet? Essentially the starting rotation has not played together until this year, and it's only been 10 games for AA.

I'm an optimist. I don't get down on a 4 game losing streak that includes twice to Miami. Knicks have last to Miami twice, Cleveland twice, Atlanta, Spurs. 6 games. Against the rest, 8-4.

Knicks still have a long way to go to establish themselves but they are already growing and you seem to be missing that, gonna be fun to watch.

I am not missing that at all. KP's development is perfect.

I think that we have played very well considering what we have and have certainly exceeded expectations in many ways.

I also see a really big issue with our PG's stunting our development in many ways as well as our shot selection which I find to be a bit alarming.

While I am really happy about a number of things, I still think that Fisher does not make it into next season and that our offensive sets need to evolve so that we get much better/smarter shots.

Next year I expect that we have a new coach, new PG, and a new system that implements less triangle or more of a hybrid at least.

Yeah a lot of people were saying that last year too, very bandwagon-y, particularly shortsighted.

The Knicks' most important youthier player is growing leaps and bounds, the team is playing defense and also exceeding expectations and you expect a new coach.

What you expect is near perfect play and if you can't have it you are looking to the first most obvious thing to change and calling for it. Just like Fisher's bench rotation, you and others seems to just want to slap something new up there and see if it sticks. Is that a good analogy? Fisher's use of the bench and your call for a new coach?

Were you also on the easy-on bandwagon to fire Miami's coach when they didn't get out of the gate when the big 3 came on board? How about last year with Cleveland? Fire Blatt too?

I am far from bandwagon-y and probably from the last ones who can be called that here.

I am not calling for Fisher's head, just making a prediction. He is doing a good job motivating his team which is really good but I am not sure if he will be able to get this offense right. Again a prediction that I can very well be wrong on.

I am more worried that we are forcing this triangle to the possible detriment of the team as well as the coach.

I think that Phil may either have to change the offense much more than he has or he will have to change the coach, lather rinse ...

First, he will need to get Fisher a PG that can at least get us past the press and into the triangle.

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:gonna need a much better PG if we are to grow properly though

man, you are quick with the obvious

LOL

when I agree with you in principal. I could care less about wins / losses this year (aside from how good our pick is that we gift toronto). I care how we grow and it kills me that we can't realize how good our roster can be since our guards are so bad and creating.

Our Guards: We can't beat the press. We can't use picks properly. We don't get to the line.

Our kids can't grow properly this way.

Oh contraire.

It seems to me that everyone is focused on Melo and what he is doing as well as Fisher's rotations and sub patterns. While there is much to be said about those things, big picture may be a better viewpoint.

KP is growing each team, and the coaching staff and front office has him in almost the perfect environment. Gallo performing. Team is playing defense (when was the last time this going to overshadowed by anything else?)

The team is 8-10 and I guarantee you that no one saw that record coming at this point in the season. No one. And I still want to say that that Knicks have had one of the hardest schedules in the league, top 10 for sure.

The Knicks have problems closing out games. They have guard problems. They have bench problems.

Do they have defensive problems? Do they quit? Are they healthy yet? Essentially the starting rotation has not played together until this year, and it's only been 10 games for AA.

I'm an optimist. I don't get down on a 4 game losing streak that includes twice to Miami. Knicks have last to Miami twice, Cleveland twice, Atlanta, Spurs. 6 games. Against the rest, 8-4.

Knicks still have a long way to go to establish themselves but they are already growing and you seem to be missing that, gonna be fun to watch.

I am not missing that at all. KP's development is perfect.

I think that we have played very well considering what we have and have certainly exceeded expectations in many ways.

I also see a really big issue with our PG's stunting our development in many ways as well as our shot selection which I find to be a bit alarming.

While I am really happy about a number of things, I still think that Fisher does not make it into next season and that our offensive sets need to evolve so that we get much better/smarter shots.

Next year I expect that we have a new coach, new PG, and a new system that implements less triangle or more of a hybrid at least.

Yeah a lot of people were saying that last year too, very bandwagon-y, particularly shortsighted.

The Knicks' most important youthier player is growing leaps and bounds, the team is playing defense and also exceeding expectations and you expect a new coach.

What you expect is near perfect play and if you can't have it you are looking to the first most obvious thing to change and calling for it. Just like Fisher's bench rotation, you and others seems to just want to slap something new up there and see if it sticks. Is that a good analogy? Fisher's use of the bench and your call for a new coach?

Were you also on the easy-on bandwagon to fire Miami's coach when they didn't get out of the gate when the big 3 came on board? How about last year with Cleveland? Fire Blatt too?

I am far from bandwagon-y and probably from the last ones who can be called that here.

I am not calling for Fisher's head, just making a prediction. He is doing a good job motivating his team which is really good but I am not sure if he will be able to get this offense right. Again a prediction that I can very well be wrong on.

I am more worried that we are forcing this triangle to the possible detriment of the team as well as the coach.

I think that Phil may either have to change the offense much more than he has or he will have to change the coach, lather rinse ...

First, he will need to get Fisher a PG that can at least get us past the press and into the triangle.

We all know that Jose is not for long.... and yet you still think the offense is wrong? Again, we are 20 games into a new season with all new players. Did you expect this to be a finished product already?

No of course I didn't. I am projecting and predicting based on things that I see that have nothing to do with Jose and his future.

I don't like all the mid range shots that our coaches allow or suggest and I am very curious to track it and see how it trends.

I enjoy following and predicting trends and of course I can easily be wrong since - what the hell do I really know? I am just a fan.

yellowboy90 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:What is real plus minus could someone explain it to me. How is it rated?

Geezzz...how dumb can a guy be!

It is the opposite of the fake plus minus!

Got it.

Found this on ESPN

What is real plus-minus?

As the name suggests, real plus-minus shares a family resemblance with the +/- stat in the box score, which merely registers the net change in score (plus or minus) while each player is on the court.

RPM is inspired by the same underlying +/- logic: If a team outscores its opponents when a player is on the court, he's probably doing something to help his team, whether or not he's putting up big numbers.

But the familiar +/- stat has a serious flaw: Each player's rating is heavily influenced by the play of his on-court teammates.

For example, in the basic +/- numbers, Thunder backup point guard Reggie Jackson is ranked 27th in the league. But he's also spent the majority of his minutes playing alongside Kevin Durant, the league's likely MVP. What we really want to know is how much of Jackson's elite rating is attributable to his own play, and basic +/- simply can't tell us.

But real plus-minus can.
Where does real plus-minus come from?

Drawing on advanced statistical modeling techniques (and the analytical wizardry of RPM developer Jeremias Engelmann, formerly of the Phoenix Suns), the metric isolates the unique plus-minus impact of each NBA player by adjusting for the effects of each teammate and opposing player.

The RPM model sifts through more than 230,000 possessions each NBA season to tease apart the "real" plus-minus effects attributable to each player, employing techniques similar to those used by scientific researchers when they need to model the effects of numerous variables at the same time.

RPM estimates how many points each player adds or subtracts, on average, to his team's net scoring margin for each 100 possessions played. The RPM model also yields separate ratings for the player's impact on both ends of the court: offensive RPM (ORPM) and defensive RPM (DRPM).
So, Gibson or Crawford?

Let's return to the previous comparison of Taj Gibson and Jamal Crawford. The chart shows their respective RPM ratings.
REAL PLUS-MINUS (2013-14)

Crawford has the higher offensive RPM (+1.53 versus +0.70), but the advantage turns out to be surprisingly small, given Crawford's scoring talents. It's worth only about one additional point per game.

And on the other end, the players are miles apart. In fact, Gibson's defensive impact (+3.42 DRPM) is large enough to give him a truly elite overall RPM rating (+4.12), placing him in the company of All-Stars like James Harden (+3.44 RPM), Chris Bosh (+3.75), Joakim Noah (+3.89), Russell Westbrook (+4.09) and Dwight Howard (+3.99).

In contrast, Crawford appears to give away a bit more on defense (-1.96 DRPM) than he contributes on offense, with an overall RPM impact (-0.43) that's slightly below the league average.
The Durant factor

RPM can also shed light on our question about the true impact of third-year guard Reggie Jackson, as the table shows.
REAL PLUS-MINUS (2013-14)

RPM accounts for the contributions of OKC stars Durant, Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka (as well as Jackson's other teammates).

After doing so, RPM indicates Jackson has had a moderately positive impact this season on both sides of the ball. His total RPM rating (+1.49), while far below that of his more heralded teammates, is consistent with the play of a quality NBA starter, and it's higher than that of more established guards such as Lance Stephenson, Kevin Martin and Wesley Matthews.
The King of RPM?

Let's close with a quick look at the game's greatest all-around player, LeBron James.

LeBron has been accused of coasting at times this season, and RPM reveals where the charge may have merit.
REAL PLUS-MINUS (2013-14)

While LeBron was aptly named to the NBA All-Defensive Team last season, his defensive impact this season has been surprisingly mediocre, at least as measured by RPM (-0.21 DRPM). His rating suggests James has not consistently given his best effort this season on the defensive end.

Does the same hold true on offense? No. Offensively LeBron has been as dominant as ever, and his +8.32 ORPM leads the league by a comfortable margin. This means that despite his less-than-stellar defensive contribution, LeBron's total RPM (+8.11) still rates as the NBA's highest this season.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he should be regarded as the league's MVP. There's a certain prolific scorer in OKC who has also put up a stellar RPM number this season, and he's done so while playing more possessions than LeBron.

Later this week we'll look at how RPM can be used to estimate the number of wins each player adds to his team. In other words, we'll introduce a new lens through which to view this season's MVP race. (Spoiler alert: It's close. Very close.)

RPM stats are provided by Jeremias Engelmann in consultation with Steve Ilardi. RPM is based on Engelmann's xRAPM (Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus). Play-by-play data provided by Basketball-Reference

Bonn1997 wrote:Awesome! Jahlil Okafor's -5.89 real plus/minus ranks him 413th out of 413 players in the league! He's next to last in regular plus minus per game at -12.

this is because he plays for the sixers and is on the court the most for a team with zero wins.

Caseloads wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Awesome! Jahlil Okafor's -5.89 real plus/minus ranks him 413th out of 413 players in the league! He's next to last in regular plus minus per game at -12.

this is because he plays for the sixers and is on the court the most for a team with zero wins.

Only partially accurate. The fact is the Sixers have performed better with him off the court than on, which means this ranking is somewhat warranted. I'm not an advanced stats guru, but i'm sure that is factored in somewhere.