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Article: It is time we respect Carmelo Anthony
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EnySpree
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8/26/2015  9:05 AM
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
TPercy wrote:No doubt Melo is a HOF..I don't there is anyone who can dispute that. The melo "haters" just believe he could be a much much better player than he currently is right now.

We have to be careful not to try so hard to put guys in a box so that we end up missing the greatness that’s already in front of us. Anthony will never be a defensive stud, a dynamic playmaker or a monster above the rim. What he is, and what he’s always been, is one heck of a scorer, a solid offensive rebounder and one incredibly fun player to watch when he gets going.
I think this kind of speaks to that.

We gave Ewing hell too and I regret that. Ewing was a warrior and elite level player on both sides. Spoiled fans we are.

When you have a player of Melo's caliber, you have to get the guys around him to play organized. Regardless of what you expect Melo to do... that guy needs his space to get buckets. No way around that....especially to close or games. Melo is cold blooded but he needs to be fresh to make it happen. Can't pound him out

you're asking for iverson's sixers.

NO!

No you ate interpreting it that way.

We need melo in the jordan/Shaq role...but Melo can function in the kobe/Pippen role too. Everyone needs to make their cuts and move to their spots. Melo can feast off that open space. Knowing where guys are supposed to be will make that work. The ball will move.... guys just gave to buy in

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EnySpree
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8/26/2015  9:06 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
TPercy wrote:No doubt Melo is a HOF..I don't there is anyone who can dispute that. The melo "haters" just believe he could be a much much better player than he currently is right now.

We have to be careful not to try so hard to put guys in a box so that we end up missing the greatness that’s already in front of us. Anthony will never be a defensive stud, a dynamic playmaker or a monster above the rim. What he is, and what he’s always been, is one heck of a scorer, a solid offensive rebounder and one incredibly fun player to watch when he gets going.
I think this kind of speaks to that.

We gave Ewing hell too and I regret that. Ewing was a warrior and elite level player on both sides. Spoiled fans we are.

When you have a player of Melo's caliber, you have to get the guys around him to play organized. Regardless of what you expect Melo to do... that guy needs his space to get buckets. No way around that....especially to close or games. Melo is cold blooded but he needs to be fresh to make it happen. Can't pound him out

Gross EnySpree...Gross!

This is not to disparage Melo, because he will end up in the HOF just by sheer buckets and nothing else, but there is no comparison with Melo and Ewing.

Ewing made it to 2 NBA Finals, won Rookie of the Year, and made several All NBA and NBA Defensive 2nd teams through the course of his career. Melo only made 1 All NBA 2nd team.

Ewing made the NBA 50 Greatest Players ever team. Melo would be hard pressed to make the Greatest 100 let alone maybe 150.

Just facts. Better comparison is maybe Adrian Dantley or Bernard King or similar. Ewing and Melo, no. Ewing made the playoffs no matter the personel from like his 3rd year in the league to the very end.

I didn't make a comparison

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EnySpree
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8/26/2015  9:15 AM
We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.
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dk7th
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8/26/2015  10:17 AM
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
knicks1248
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8/26/2015  10:54 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/26/2015  10:56 AM
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

ES
jrodmc
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8/26/2015  11:28 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

it's okay, as long as he gets at least two others to +1 him, he's the Self-Justifiable Minority.

dk7th
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8/26/2015  11:32 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

my issue with melo and ewing, regardless of the front office, is that both overrated themselves, asked for too much for their services, and never worked on expanding their games sufficiently. these three things are deeply intertwined but the root problem of the three remains a stubborn egocentricity.

some will say ewing was proud, a proud warrior, etc. and that's fine if you want to make him some sort of heroic person. i don't see it that way. but this ego clouded his judgement and made him less pragmatic than he could have been.

melo is just a lesser version.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
EnySpree
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8/26/2015  11:38 AM
We can't talk about money after the way this off season went..... considering that we got Melo for a discount.
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EnySpree
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8/26/2015  11:46 AM
Melo does take plays off but not to the extent as it was in Denver and when he first got here.

Besides....Amare took 2 seasons off because he didn't feel up to playing. He needed rest. Then goes to Dallas and now Miami without restrictions. So the Lazy Melo stuff is over blown.

2015 Melo is upgraded to being an adequate defender... he's always averaged 3 assists so he does pass the ball. He's had terrible teammates the last 2 years. No excuse this year.

as I pointed out, the offense will dictate everything. The players have to buy in to allow Melo to do his thing within the offense.

So that focus of anger should be placed on Fishers feet. He needs to make this work.

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dk7th
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8/26/2015  12:02 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

luck? if luck exists it is a result of preparation meeting opportunity, ie luck is earned or made in advance. then there's karma.

i can't speak to the bernard king era as i was not around new york and the knicks had been bad for so long, what with drugs and whatever else, i didn't follow the team. however, i bore witness to all the knicks teams throughout the 90s. i always had an issue with ewing, and it had to do with a sort of stubborn pride that precluded his working on his game properly, as olajuwon and later shaq did. did you know that both those players went to a special big man camp to develop their footwork and passing for the post game? it was pete newell:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/sports/basketball/18araton.html

had ewing developed properly as a center, the knicks would have appeared in more finals and maybe have won a title or two. he simply refused to adapt and grow, and god almighty those knick teams were the epitome of boring.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
nixluva
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8/26/2015  12:43 PM
EnySpree wrote:Melo does take plays off but not to the extent as it was in Denver and when he first got here.

Besides....Amare took 2 seasons off because he didn't feel up to playing. He needed rest. Then goes to Dallas and now Miami without restrictions. So the Lazy Melo stuff is over blown.

2015 Melo is upgraded to being an adequate defender... he's always averaged 3 assists so he does pass the ball. He's had terrible teammates the last 2 years. No excuse this year.

as I pointed out, the offense will dictate everything. The players have to buy in to allow Melo to do his thing within the offense.

So that focus of anger should be placed on Fishers feet. He needs to make this work.


I really believe in the idea that you can create an environment where players give more effort when you put a lot of high motor guys together. I think that's what Phil has done. He's got enough guys who naturally want to defend hard and that will rub off on other players who may not always play like that but may raise their effort level when they see the rest of the team playing hard. The same goes for passing IMO.
knicks1248
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8/26/2015  12:53 PM
dk7th wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

luck? if luck exists it is a result of preparation meeting opportunity, ie luck is earned or made in advance. then there's karma.

i can't speak to the bernard king era as i was not around new york and the knicks had been bad for so long, what with drugs and whatever else, i didn't follow the team. however, i bore witness to all the knicks teams throughout the 90s. i always had an issue with ewing, and it had to do with a sort of stubborn pride that precluded his working on his game properly, as olajuwon and later shaq did. did you know that both those players went to a special big man camp to develop their footwork and passing for the post game? it was pete newell:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/sports/basketball/18araton.html

had ewing developed properly as a center, the knicks would have appeared in more finals and maybe have won a title or two. he simply refused to adapt and grow, and god almighty those knick teams were the epitome of boring.

I agree to a certain extent, as i always wanted ewing to be a little more physical in the paint, but every player has his own style.

What i flat out disagree is that, hakeem had, cassel, thorpe, horry, drexler, and shaq had kobe, phil jackson and pat riley

Ewing had starks and oakly and by the time allan, LJ, camby and spree came in the picture, he was a shell of himself. No matter how you look at it, the team is what matters the most, having the right guys around, the right coach to bring the best out of players and put them in a position to utilize their strengths.

You seem like you want high price players to be flawless and perfect, and that's never ever going to be the case because it's a team game that has different positions, and to me a high IQ will trump all the physical talent in the world.

The 300 pound ox of a man took his ax and chop down a massive tree in 2 hours
The 150 pound string bean of a man, took his electric saw and chop the same tree down in 20 minutes. Gotta to be smart

ES
Nalod
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8/26/2015  12:58 PM

Expecations. THe haters are rallying against those that paint him Mooby.
He was sold to us as the Messiah. "Coming home"!

If he left he'd be painted as "Unloyal". If he stayed (he did) he was painted as "Greedy".

jrodmc
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8/26/2015  3:33 PM
When those around him win awards, they're carrying the Mooby.
When we suhuck, Mooby makes nobody around him better.

Melo never gets out of the first round, until he does, and then it doesn't count.

Anyone criticizing ME7o is a forward-thinking basketball genius.
Anyone writing an article about appreciating what Melo's accomplished is a hole-filled sycophant.

Melo gets the wrong kind of rebounds.
Melo gets the wrong kind of assists.
Melo scores the wrong kind of points.
Melo makes the wrong kind of money.
Melo doesn't play defense.

holfresh
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8/26/2015  3:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/26/2015  3:36 PM
dk7th wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

my issue with melo and ewing, regardless of the front office, is that both overrated themselves, asked for too much for their services, and never worked on expanding their games sufficiently. these three things are deeply intertwined but the root problem of the three remains a stubborn egocentricity.

some will say ewing was proud, a proud warrior, etc. and that's fine if you want to make him some sort of heroic person. i don't see it that way. but this ego clouded his judgement and made him less pragmatic than he could have been.

melo is just a lesser version.

Have you ever thought it's what has made them who they are..It's that stubbornness that drives their careers...They aren't the greatest athletes, they weren't chiseled from Mount Olympus.. I think it's great...I never wanted MJ and I don't want LeBron on my team...I wish we had more guys like Ewing on our team, we would have won...Guys like Ewing and Melo thinks they can beat MJ and LeBrons of the world...I want these guys on my team..They are the underdog and they come to fight..Melo has gotten better over the years...He is stubborn and wants to win...I can't ask for more...

gunsnewing
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8/26/2015  3:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/26/2015  3:48 PM
Ewing came into the league as the next Bill Russell defensively. Left as a top 5 offense center of all time. Never reached Bill Russell level of defense but he was a definite presence inside defensively. He worked on his game plenty just not his footwork and passing like dream and shaq. That is why those 2 are placed ahead of him. You can never fault Ewings pride and work ethic though. He had potential to develop great footwork under Newell being a former soccer player. It just wasn't in the cards. He was a Boston, DC EAST COAST guy
knicks1248
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8/26/2015  4:10 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Ewing came into the league as the next Bill Russell defensively. Left as a top 5 offense center of all time. Never reached Bill Russell level of defense but he was a definite presence inside defensively. He worked on his game plenty just not his footwork and passing like dream and shaq. That is why those 2 are placed ahead of him. You can never fault Ewings pride and work ethic though. He had potential to develop great footwork under Newell being a former soccer player. It just wasn't in the cards. He was a Boston, DC EAST COAST guy

and lets not forget first ballot HOF

ES
TripleThreat
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8/26/2015  4:10 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Did you read the article?


Yes, I did.


Now read this one.


http://www.aol.com/article/2015/01/06/despite-what-carmelo-anthony-thinks-he-is-wildly-overrated/21125567


Despite what Carmelo Anthony thinks, he is wildly overrated
FanSided
Clint PembertonJan 6th 2015 12:03PM


When Carmelo Anthony called himself the "most underrated superstar that's out there" he was partially correct, there is undoubtedly a significant disparity between perception and performance as it relates to the New York Knicks star, just not in the way he thinks.

Take a look at Melo's career:

2003-11 Denver Nuggets, 2011-Present New York Knicks, Drafted 3rd (Syracuse)
7x All-Star, 2x All-NBA Second Team, 4x All-NBA Third Team, 1x NBA Scoring Champion

In the NBA there are no secrets, just hidden truths, and with the continued evolution of advanced metrics those hidden truths don't remain hidden for long. However truth is not completely self-evident in today's NBA, therefore public perception of some players is incongruous to their actual skills or production. It's why some NBA players are underrated and also why alleged "superstar" Carmelo Anthony is wildly overrated.

Carmelo Anthony can score just about as consistently and as often as anyone in the NBA. He averages 25.2 points per game, the 12th best mark in NBA history and was the league's leading scorer in 2012-13, never finishing a season lower than eighth on the scoring list.

Despite perennially being among the leaders in points per game and topping the scoring list in 2012-13, Anthony's actual contributions to winning games in the NBA materially underwhelms his reputation. With only one top five placing in MVP voting (2012-13, third), two top 10 seasons in PER (a fourth and a seventh), Melo has never had a season that finished in the top 20 in the NBA in VORP, only once has he finished in the top 20 in Box Plus Minus and he has authored exactly zero season where his Win Shares per 48 Minutes ranked in the top 20.

2013-14 was Anthony's career season in terms of Win Shares with 10.7, however that number ranked 13th in the NBA and it's not just a matter of a few percentage points here or there between 13th and first. Kevin Durant topped the list with 19.2 Win Shares, LeBron James was second with 15.9 and in total five players had season Win Share numbers 20% or better than Melo.

Anthony's usage rate (estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor) consistently sits among the league leaders, not finishing lower than fifth in the NBA in a full season and not dropping below 30% since 2004-05 his second year in the league.

This presents a problem because Anthony does little else productive with the ball other than shoot it, which he does often, averaging between 18-22 FGA (Field Goal Attempts) per game in every year except his second. Anthony has never finished lower than sixth in the NBA in FGA and has never finished outside the top 10 in free throws attempted.

Last season Anthony produced only 6.2 assist opportunities per game, which ranked 94th in the NBA while genuine superstars with very similar usage rates LeBron James and Kevin Durant produced 12.0 and 10.3 opportunities respectively. That's a whole world of non-productive usage for Melo.

The only metric where Carmelo Anthony is elite is scoring, but even this is more volume related than efficiency related. The average NBA player in 2013-14 had an effective field goal percentage (eFG%) of 50.1%, Melo's eFG% was 50.3%, slightly better than average but hardly elite. What does elite look like? Try LeBron James 61.0%, Steph Curry 56.6% and Kevin Durant 56.0%.

Anthony defenders will try to point to the Knicks having a significantly weaker supporting cast than James, Curry and Durant which hasn't always been the case. However those same three names feature atop ESPN.com's Offensive Real Plus Minus stat for 2013-14, which measures a team's offensive performance adjusted for teammates and opponents. Melo finished 18th on that offensive metric and 289th on defense.

Anthony and defense are rarely mentioned in the same sentence and there are good reasons why. Melo has never posted a positive DBPM (Defensive Box Plus Minus) and every year bar one has been negative, meaning that on average, Anthony's defensive contributions while on the court are negative or worse than the average player as per Basketball-Reference.com.

Carmelo Anthony has been the best player on teams that made the playoffs every year he was in the league barring last year and inevitably this year. However in those ten playoff trips Melo's teams have lost in the first-round eight times, the second round once and made only a solitary trip to the conference finals.

One of the knocks on Anthony is his teams haven't won a title, however evaluating players based on rings alone is a flawed and oversimplified narrative. Winning a championship is extremely difficult and requires considerable luck and good timing. There are 30 NBA teams and only one goes home happy every year. The list of best players never to win a title is long and illustrious and includes players generally perceived as superstars; Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson and many others.

Statistically Anthony has had one season throughout the entirety of his career when a reasonable argument could be made that he might have been the third best player in the league. However when considering all components of the game it is difficult to argue that Anthony has even been consistently a top ten player throughout his career.

Overrated is an emotive term, but it needn't be. Being overrated doesn't mean that a player is bad, it simply means that their reputation exceeds their related contributions towards winning basketball games. Anthony's contribution is overrated because he excels at the most basic, obvious and quantifiable basketball skill; putting the ball in the hoop.

Basketball however is about much more than simply scoring, and for this reason Melo must be graded a level below the superstars of his era. In fact Basketball-Reference.com's similarity score through 11 seasons in Win Shares lists Anthony's best comparatives are Rasheed Wallace, A.C. Green and Otis Thorpe. Good players all but hardly superstars!

Despite what Carmelo Anthony thinks he's not a superstar and he is most definitely not underrated.

Carmelo Anthony might be a superstar scorer, but that's a very different thing to being a superstar player.

Nalod
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8/26/2015  4:38 PM
Ewing excelled at Soccer and Cricket in Jamaica.

Dude grew up in Jamaica and lived in Cambridge mass for 6 years, then off to DC for 4 as a Hoya, then to Gotham.
Being an "east coast guy" makes him, what?

Moobyistic saviors build up are held to a higher standard. We love Ewing, and forget his short comings as we grow fonder. Same for Bernard King who played about 2.5 seasons for the Knicks. Love the guy, but have to keep the legacy in check.

The Melo era is largely as starphuch because fans love it as does the owner. The haters think they are more clever and think most fans are clueless.

Nalod
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8/26/2015  4:47 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

Knicks traded Michael Ray Richardson for King and got lucky. It was really one head case for another. Michael Ray was out of the league on drugs and king blew his leg out. But we got lucky as he was our franchise.
We did not trade half the team for him or draft him as our savior. He really was a nice surprise. He took it up not just a notch in NY, but two or three!

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