nixluva wrote:

callmened wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't see why Grant is not part of the future at this point, and I don't know enough about OQuinn to make a real comment about his.

Still not sure where Thanasis and Early stand, too. Probably not starters, but can they be rotation players at some point?

Have to see this group play for a couple of years before making this kind of evaluation or prediction.

We will see.

im not concluding anything about grant. i just think its too early to assume to group him for the core future (that sounds crazy doesnt all that?? lol.) to be honest i dont think were seeing any core group now. only player im invested in for the future is KP

I'm curious. What do you expect from Jerian at his peak? It sounds like you don't think he's a starting quality player. I Like his talent, BB IQ and his confidence. He did show that he has the Balls to lead a team and also take big shots. Being older I think just makes him less of a wait and see guy. We already know what he can do for the most part. He's the most NBA ready PG in the draft IMO.

at his peak, im guessing 11ppg 5 asts, solid defense and smart bball. nothing earth shattering. borderline starter.

antonio daniels type of career

hey we'll see. thats just my first gut reaction

but i agree with BRIGGS...im all in on KP. to me, our future goes as far as KP takes us

blkexec wrote:So i guess theres no chance melo and kp to carry us to the eastern conference finals? If kp is a franchise talent then whats wrong with having 2 franchise players in a proven system built to win championships. Dont forget the bulls won 60 games without jordan in this system. I think knick fans are really sleeping on this team. Its a blue collar system with blue collar players and two franchise players. On top of that we have a young pg in grant who can compete on both ends against anybody in the nba.....dont let our history blind you! No more paper rosters full of iso players. This is a team ready to punch the clock. Everybody on this team has a chip on their shoulder.

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:So i guess theres no chance melo and kp to carry us to the eastern conference finals? If kp is a franchise talent then whats wrong with having 2 franchise players in a proven system built to win championships. Dont forget the bulls won 60 games without jordan in this system. I think knick fans are really sleeping on this team. Its a blue collar system with blue collar players and two franchise players. On top of that we have a young pg in grant who can compete on both ends against anybody in the nba.....dont let our history blind you! No more paper rosters full of iso players. This is a team ready to punch the clock. Everybody on this team has a chip on their shoulder.

there's no chance because melo is not, never was, and never will be... a franchise player. if anything he is a hindrance to winning it all. if he wins a title it will be as a sixth man.

Well i dont mind being the only one that believes Melo will be a different player under Phil and his triangle system. He has the jordan brand and bff with kobe. If he signed here because of phil then he believes he will win a chip in nyc. He has too much pride anf nyc connections to quit. So when you have a motivated star willing to prove haters wrong, that usually results into team success. Melo today is not the same melo of yesterday. But dont worry....wait until briggs sends out another post mid season saying we can win with melo if he continues to play this way. Good job briggs....i have to give it to you. You have a strong following but as usual i have to disagree with you.

And for the record im not a melo fan. But i believe everybody has the opportunity to change. This is the best time for melo to prove everybody wrong.

BRIGGS wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't see why Grant is not part of the future at this point, and I don't know enough about OQuinn to make a real comment about his.

Still not sure where Thanasis and Early stand, too. Probably not starters, but can they be rotation players at some point?

Have to see this group play for a couple of years before making this kind of evaluation or prediction.

We will see.

I'm not down playing anyone as a solid role player . I just think the key to anything is kp

How many Rookies did Ewing play with as the knicks franchise player for 17 yrs. The core of the knicks (in the ewing era) flipped every 2 to 4 yrs. Starks, Oak mason ewing.

Even in the knicks championship yrs, they traded for vets before they won titles. You get a couple pieces and then you make trades, and acquire fA's

I really have no idea what your talking about briggs, phil just scratch the surface this off season

TripleThreat wrote:

blkexec wrote:i dont mind being the only one that believes Melo will be a different player under Phil and his triangle system. He has the jordan brand and bff with kobe. If he signed here because of phil then he believes he will win a chip in nyc. He has too much pride anf nyc connections to quit. So when you have a motivated star willing to prove haters wrong, that usually results into team success. Melo today is not the same melo of yesterday. ......
And for the record im not a melo fan. But i believe everybody has the opportunity to change. This is the best time for melo to prove everybody wrong.

Under what conditions will Melo change?

Conditions in which I've seen, across all professional sports, and general modern sports history, where players have RADICALLY changed their mindset, approach, preparation and attitude

1) When they are dead broke and need that next contract to keep afloat and they realize their marketability has waned to close to nothing. This happened to Vince Carter. He reinvented himself, late career, in Dallas, under Rick Carlisle into a functional role player who played more team ball and more efficiently. But the critical factor was he wanted to keep playing to make money

2) When the player is on the roster fringe and their playing opportunities dry up. This happened to Allen Iverson. Who wanted to be a starter, refused to accept he was no longer an NBA starter, didn't want to humble himself by going to the D League, rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, when he finally recanted and said he'd play any role any team wanted, every NBA team decided a sub 6 foot malcontent alcoholic that was no longer protected by Stern's refs because he no longer sold enough shoes and merchandise, just wasn't worth the roster spot, headache and minimum contract.

What incentive does Melo have to change? He's gotten nearly everything he wanted out of NY and the Knicks kowtowed to his demands. Want Lin gone? Fine. Want Chandler gone? Fine. Want to infuse your CAA buddies to keep Leon Rose happy? Fine. Want Pringles clipped? Fine. Want to lock in that deal before the labor agreement changes? Fine. Want that big extension? Fine.

The Knicks have given Melo pretty much everything he wanted and the team got worse and worse and the mother ****er still doesn't play defense.

What is with this "haters" bull****.

IF YOU DON'T PLAY DEFENSE BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE ALPHA DOG ON YOUR TEAM, AND YOU GET CRITICIZED FOR IT, THAT'S NOT "HATE" THE END RESULT IS YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER STUPID MOTHER FUCKER WHO REFUSES TO PLAY DEFENSE AND HELPS YOUR TEAM LOSE INSTEAD OF WIN.

Yes, it's "hate" why Melo can't ****ing play defense. Do you really want to push that happy horse **** some more?

Every time Melo fails to do the BARE MINIMUM EXPECTED OF A PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER, he is an insult to every loyal Knicks fan out there. Every time he showed up in non elite condition. Every time he simply didn't care and didn't try on defense. Every time he said something team killing in the press. Every team mate and coach he drove off the roster even if they could help the team win.

It's an insult.

Dude, where is the "hate" when most of his biggest critics here just want him to shut up, show up in elite condition, play defense and actually take the responsibility of being a leader, in the locker room and as an example.

Where is your mother ****ing dignity?

It is undignified to have ANY PLAYER shirk the bare minimum required to do his job the right way and put on that Knicks jersey.

Something you Melo ball lickers don't quite get here. Melo's biggest critics here would CRITICIZE ANY PLAYER WHO WORE THAT KNICKS JERSEY AND DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY.

What Melo does ( and more to point, what he does not do) and fails to provide the bare minimum expected of a professional is an insult to what "Knicks basketball" should be.

Anyone here who accepts ANY KNICK PLAYER who gives anything less that pure excellence, that's just a disgrace. I'm not talking about scoring championships, I'm not talking about ALL STAR berths, I'm not talking about rings. I'm talking about playing the game the right way, giving unto the greater good of the team, sacrificing because winning come before all.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0012971/quotes

Coach Gary Gaines: Being perfect is not about that scoreboard out there. It's not about winning. It's about you and your relationship with yourself, your family and your friends. Being perfect is about being able to look your friends in the eye and know that you didnt let them down because you told them the truth. And that truth is you did everything you could. There wasnt one more thing you could've done. Can you live in that moment as best you can, with clear eyes, and love in your heart, with joy in your heart? If you can do that gentleman - you're perfect

Is it that time of the month for you again?

sounds like you need to write all of that up as an open letter to Melo.

I am guessing that even Melo's biggest fans on this forum feel that he can do better. After all... out of all small forward starters... he ran the least number of steps through the course of the season. You dont have to be first in that list... but you don't have to be last either. It is a sign of laziness...and we all know its not on offense.

He could be better for sure, but some folks on this forum make it seem like he's the 3rd anti christ.
Let me just say that teams like philly, minny, lakers, etc didn't really sign any UFAs of any significance and who we got is because Melo is still here, not in spite of him. He does have a star power pull and if he works with KP and Grant and the rest of the crew and we are a 41 win team... guess what there WILL be UFAs for next season that will be interested in signing here.

Yeah he took the 125 million and it is put up or shut up time... no one is denying that. But he did take a band of wannabes like JR smith, shumpert, etc to a 55 win season. Pretty sure he can do it again if he puts his mind to it. Some of the constant bickering about his attitude etc...it's not improving his market value in the Knicks favor...it's only decreasing it. I swear... Knicks fans have to be the toughest fans in the world, no wonder so many people do not want to play here.

Look at Zach Randolph... went to Memphis and somehow became a key cog... I bet at least 50% of that was the papers and fans not screaming murder every time he didn't pass the ball.

Cartman718 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

blkexec wrote:i dont mind being the only one that believes Melo will be a different player under Phil and his triangle system. He has the jordan brand and bff with kobe. If he signed here because of phil then he believes he will win a chip in nyc. He has too much pride anf nyc connections to quit. So when you have a motivated star willing to prove haters wrong, that usually results into team success. Melo today is not the same melo of yesterday. ......
And for the record im not a melo fan. But i believe everybody has the opportunity to change. This is the best time for melo to prove everybody wrong.

Under what conditions will Melo change?

Conditions in which I've seen, across all professional sports, and general modern sports history, where players have RADICALLY changed their mindset, approach, preparation and attitude

1) When they are dead broke and need that next contract to keep afloat and they realize their marketability has waned to close to nothing. This happened to Vince Carter. He reinvented himself, late career, in Dallas, under Rick Carlisle into a functional role player who played more team ball and more efficiently. But the critical factor was he wanted to keep playing to make money

2) When the player is on the roster fringe and their playing opportunities dry up. This happened to Allen Iverson. Who wanted to be a starter, refused to accept he was no longer an NBA starter, didn't want to humble himself by going to the D League, rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, when he finally recanted and said he'd play any role any team wanted, every NBA team decided a sub 6 foot malcontent alcoholic that was no longer protected by Stern's refs because he no longer sold enough shoes and merchandise, just wasn't worth the roster spot, headache and minimum contract.

What incentive does Melo have to change? He's gotten nearly everything he wanted out of NY and the Knicks kowtowed to his demands. Want Lin gone? Fine. Want Chandler gone? Fine. Want to infuse your CAA buddies to keep Leon Rose happy? Fine. Want Pringles clipped? Fine. Want to lock in that deal before the labor agreement changes? Fine. Want that big extension? Fine.

The Knicks have given Melo pretty much everything he wanted and the team got worse and worse and the mother ****er still doesn't play defense.

What is with this "haters" bull****.

IF YOU DON'T PLAY DEFENSE BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK AND YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE ALPHA DOG ON YOUR TEAM, AND YOU GET CRITICIZED FOR IT, THAT'S NOT "HATE" THE END RESULT IS YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER STUPID MOTHER FUCKER WHO REFUSES TO PLAY DEFENSE AND HELPS YOUR TEAM LOSE INSTEAD OF WIN.

Yes, it's "hate" why Melo can't ****ing play defense. Do you really want to push that happy horse **** some more?

Every time Melo fails to do the BARE MINIMUM EXPECTED OF A PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER, he is an insult to every loyal Knicks fan out there. Every time he showed up in non elite condition. Every time he simply didn't care and didn't try on defense. Every time he said something team killing in the press. Every team mate and coach he drove off the roster even if they could help the team win.

It's an insult.

Dude, where is the "hate" when most of his biggest critics here just want him to shut up, show up in elite condition, play defense and actually take the responsibility of being a leader, in the locker room and as an example.

Where is your mother ****ing dignity?

It is undignified to have ANY PLAYER shirk the bare minimum required to do his job the right way and put on that Knicks jersey.

Something you Melo ball lickers don't quite get here. Melo's biggest critics here would CRITICIZE ANY PLAYER WHO WORE THAT KNICKS JERSEY AND DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY.

What Melo does ( and more to point, what he does not do) and fails to provide the bare minimum expected of a professional is an insult to what "Knicks basketball" should be.

Anyone here who accepts ANY KNICK PLAYER who gives anything less that pure excellence, that's just a disgrace. I'm not talking about scoring championships, I'm not talking about ALL STAR berths, I'm not talking about rings. I'm talking about playing the game the right way, giving unto the greater good of the team, sacrificing because winning come before all.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0012971/quotes

Coach Gary Gaines: Being perfect is not about that scoreboard out there. It's not about winning. It's about you and your relationship with yourself, your family and your friends. Being perfect is about being able to look your friends in the eye and know that you didnt let them down because you told them the truth. And that truth is you did everything you could. There wasnt one more thing you could've done. Can you live in that moment as best you can, with clear eyes, and love in your heart, with joy in your heart? If you can do that gentleman - you're perfect

Is it that time of the month for you again?

sounds like you need to write all of that up as an open letter to Melo.

I am guessing that even Melo's biggest fans on this forum feel that he can do better. After all... out of all small forward starters... he ran the least number of steps through the course of the season. You dont have to be first in that list... but you don't have to be last either. It is a sign of laziness...and we all know its not on offense.

He could be better for sure, but some folks on this forum make it seem like he's the 3rd anti christ.
Let me just say that teams like philly, minny, lakers, etc didn't really sign any UFAs of any significance and who we got is because Melo is still here, not in spite of him. He does have a star power pull and if he works with KP and Grant and the rest of the crew and we are a 41 win team... guess what there WILL be UFAs for next season that will be interested in signing here.

Yeah he took the 125 million and it is put up or shut up time... no one is denying that. But he did take a band of wannabes like JR smith, shumpert, etc to a 55 win season. Pretty sure he can do it again if he puts his mind to it. Some of the constant bickering about his attitude etc...it's not improving his market value in the Knicks favor...it's only decreasing it. I swear... Knicks fans have to be the toughest fans in the world, no wonder so many people do not want to play here.

Look at Zach Randolph... went to Memphis and somehow became a key cog... I bet at least 50% of that was the papers and fans not screaming murder every time he didn't pass the ball.

holfresh wrote:You guys are all dreaming..The triangle needs Melo more than Melo needs the triangle...Show me the Phil Jackson team that ran the triangle that didn't have a gunner or a guy running ISO inside of 5 mins of the 4th quarter..This guy is Porzingis??..Don't make me laugh..Phil Jackson won't survive a year outside Melo's departure...If Melo ask for a trade, you are looking at sub 30 win seasons for the next few years..This will seal the fact the Phil's tenure was a failure..

+1

holfresh wrote:You guys are all dreaming..The triangle needs Melo more than Melo needs the triangle...Show me the Phil Jackson team that ran the triangle that didn't have a gunner or a guy running ISO inside of 5 mins of the 4th quarter..This guy is Porzingis??..Don't make me laugh..Phil Jackson won't survive a year outside Melo's departure...If Melo ask for a trade, you are looking at sub 30 win seasons for the next few years..This will seal the fact the Phil's tenure was a failure..

Michael Jordan averaged 8 Assists a game the season before Phil Jackson took over, so he was already a good fit for the triangle. Kobe Bryant averaged 5 assists a game while in Jackson's triangle.

Melo is just a bad fit for any structured offense, period. He needs the ball in his hands, he can't play the game away the ball like the great ones can.

Even Melo's finest career moment in Syracuse, guess how many assists he had in the Championship game....One.

blkexec wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Melo's played one way his whole career since B'More, since AAU, since 'Cuse, in 3 Olympics, and over 12 seasons in the NBA.

Drops buckets with volume with the best of them, not much else. Never has and never will make an ALL NBA FIRST TEAM or ALL NBA DEFENSIVE TEAM, true markings of players that are elite or have evolved.

Asking Melo to change, is like asking Patrick Ewing to change his game when Mason and LJ were here. Melo knows only one way to play, it's either as ISO man or finisher. He'll only pass if he sees an aggressive double coming, he never reads the D for an interior pocket pass or is able to see plays happen before they do. Not even mentioning Lebron, Paul George has already averaged 4 assists for a season. Durant has averaged 4 assists or greater for 4 straight seasons while securing scoring titles along the way. George has already made 2 All NBA Defensive teams, and Durant 5 ALL NBA FIRST TEAMs.

The only hope for Melo winning a title is ,as DK7TH rightfully pointed out, as a 6th man on a contending squad. He can fire away and provide much needed offense, but at the same time hide his defensive deficiencies to the 2nd unit of those teams. All the pressure would be off him in a bench role, similar to Team USA, and he wouldn't be counted on for a leadership.

You can build a championship team around Melo, without him being the 6th man.....The question is, can it be done in this cap system? You need to surround Melo will players that fills his holes.....The main holes is leadership and help defense. You saw it when we had a team full of leaders, and we won 50plus games. Melo is an offensive sword. The type of sword you can win with. But Melo will never be an offensive assassin and a defensive stopper at the same time. And at 31 you don't want that. It's like asking Rogers or Andrew Luck to play offense and defense. If they did that, their quarterback ratings would drop drastically. At this stage of Melo's career, you have to take the same approach they do in football. Let Melo carry the offensive load and build a team of defensive role players around Melo. Thats how you win with him. Not even Durrant has the scoring effeciency as Melo, because Durrant doesn't have a post game. Melo has it all on offense. Phil is doing the right thing, building a team around Melo. He's our only chance at winning a title right now, and attracting other FAs. Nobody is coming here to play with KP and Grant!

I politely disagree. In order for Melo to remain starter, he'd have to subjugate his game several notches and defer for the betterment of the team.

Basically be Paul Pierce. He was a known gunner for the majority of his career, but in the Doc era, as well as his stops in Washington, and what he'll be in LA, he was a better all around player even picking it up on the defensive end. Pierce went from being a 25 point per game guy, to like a 19 point guy, and did it for the betterment of the team.

Unless Melo becomes a willing passer and decoy, and becomes maybe a 20 point guy, he's not that guy for this system.

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

holfresh wrote:You guys are all dreaming..The triangle needs Melo more than Melo needs the triangle...Show me the Phil Jackson team that ran the triangle that didn't have a gunner or a guy running ISO inside of 5 mins of the 4th quarter..This guy is Porzingis??..Don't make me laugh..Phil Jackson won't survive a year outside Melo's departure...If Melo ask for a trade, you are looking at sub 30 win seasons for the next few years..This will seal the fact the Phil's tenure was a failure..

Michael Jordan averaged 8 Assists a game the season before Phil Jackson took over, so he was already a good fit for the triangle. Kobe Bryant averaged 5 assists a game while in Jackson's triangle.

Melo is just a bad fit for any structured offense, period. He needs the ball in his hands, he can't play the game away the ball like the great ones can.

Even Melo's finest career moment in Syracuse, guess how many assists he had in the Championship game....One.

Well we all know that a high assist total is more important than winning a Championship..If Phil feels that way, he should talk Melo into a trade...

That's the whole point really. Bad fit, no hard feelings. Jackson will probably have a heart to heart midway through this season to see if it's best to trade by the deadline or wait until after the season.