nixluva wrote:Seems to me that Phil has already shifted the focus in a major way. This is a team that has put player development more to the forefront. If I have to read one more person talk about the Triangle in a negative way i'm going to lose it!!! The Triangle is 110% about teaching players to think the game and learn how to play without the ball. Ball and Player movement is at the heart of the system. Unselfishness is at the heart of the system. These are the things that Phil is all about. Beyond the talent you have to have players who want to play unselfishly. That's what the focus of the system is all about.

Let's take for example how they taught the Summer League team to defend. They did that at a high level for the most part. Aside from one bad game that SL team was getting after it. This is what player development is all about. We've got a good amount of young players and I'm sure we'll take a look at more in Training Camp, if not for the roster, then surely development in the D League. We've see before that it can help to have some vets mixed in.

   	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	COLLEGE	        2015-2016 SALARY
1. 	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	20	7-3	230	 	        $4,131,720
2. 	Jerian Grant	        PG	22	6-5	205	Notre Dame	$1,572,360
3.	Langston Galloway	PG	23	6-2	200	Saint Joseph's	$845,059
4. 	Cleanthony Early	SF	24	6-8	220	Wichita State	$845,059
5. 	Derrick Williams	PF	24	6-8	240	Arizona	        $4,000,000
6.	Kyle O'Quinn	        PF	25	6-10	250	Norfolk State	$3,750,000
7. 	Robin Lopez	        C	27	7-0	255	Stanford	$12,650,000
8. 	Lance Thomas	        SF	27	6-8	225	Duke	        $1,636,842
9.	Arron Afflalo	        SG	29	6-5	215	UCLA	        $8,000,000
10	Carmelo Anthony	        SF	31	6-8	240	Syracuse	$22,875,000
11.     Sasha Vujacic           SG      31      6-7     195
12.	Lou Amundson	        PF	32	6-9	225	UNLV	        $1,650,000
13.	Jose Calderon	        PG	33	6-3	200	 	        $7,402,812

I disagree that just adding players that need to be developed equals player development. I also disagree that just playing in the triangle equals player development. Also, for a team predicated on ball movement, our passing fundamentals suck. Can they at the very least learn to make crisp on target passes?

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:Seems to me that Phil has already shifted the focus in a major way. This is a team that has put player development more to the forefront. If I have to read one more person talk about the Triangle in a negative way i'm going to lose it!!! The Triangle is 110% about teaching players to think the game and learn how to play without the ball. Ball and Player movement is at the heart of the system. Unselfishness is at the heart of the system. These are the things that Phil is all about. Beyond the talent you have to have players who want to play unselfishly. That's what the focus of the system is all about.

Let's take for example how they taught the Summer League team to defend. They did that at a high level for the most part. Aside from one bad game that SL team was getting after it. This is what player development is all about. We've got a good amount of young players and I'm sure we'll take a look at more in Training Camp, if not for the roster, then surely development in the D League. We've see before that it can help to have some vets mixed in.

   	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	COLLEGE	        2015-2016 SALARY
1. 	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	20	7-3	230	 	        $4,131,720
2. 	Jerian Grant	        PG	22	6-5	205	Notre Dame	$1,572,360
3.	Langston Galloway	PG	23	6-2	200	Saint Joseph's	$845,059
4. 	Cleanthony Early	SF	24	6-8	220	Wichita State	$845,059
5. 	Derrick Williams	PF	24	6-8	240	Arizona	        $4,000,000
6.	Kyle O'Quinn	        PF	25	6-10	250	Norfolk State	$3,750,000
7. 	Robin Lopez	        C	27	7-0	255	Stanford	$12,650,000
8. 	Lance Thomas	        SF	27	6-8	225	Duke	        $1,636,842
9.	Arron Afflalo	        SG	29	6-5	215	UCLA	        $8,000,000
10	Carmelo Anthony	        SF	31	6-8	240	Syracuse	$22,875,000
11.     Sasha Vujacic           SG      31      6-7     195
12.	Lou Amundson	        PF	32	6-9	225	UNLV	        $1,650,000
13.	Jose Calderon	        PG	33	6-3	200	 	        $7,402,812

I disagree that just adding players that need to be developed equals player development. I also disagree that just playing in the triangle equals player development. Also, for a team predicated on ball movement, our passing fundamentals suck. Can they at the very least learn to make crisp on target passes?

1. You do realize that you MUST bring in young talent in order to meet the minimum requirement of "Developing Young Players" as the title of your thread suggests.

2. No one is suggesting that simply playing your kids in the Triangle equals player development. Do you realize what they're actually teaching our young players to do in the Triangle? I think perhaps you don't really understand what is involved. If you did you wouldn't be saying what you did above.

You can't "Just Play" in the Triangle. Players MUST learn the spacing, footwork, timing, passing, motion and the rules of the system to counter what the defense does. They must learn how to read the defense and make the right decision with the ball. They have to be alert and look for each other at all times. You can't just roll the ball out and have any player function in the Triangle. It's too detail oriented for that to happen. Every Player has to learn to use all of their skills. They can't hide out in a corner or not learn how to pass and cut effectively. Big men can't expect not to handle the ball a lot more than in many other systems. Why do you think this system requires players with a high BB IQ and skills?

3. The team's passing and fundamentals may have needed more work but they didn't suck. It's a work in progress or do you think Player Development means that players instantly become perfect at all areas of the game? It takes time and work. As a team the Knicks last year despite not having much talent were among the better teams in terms of assists. If they could actually make some shots they would've been top 10.

Rank	Team	        2014
1	Golden State	26.8	
2	Atlanta	        25.4
3	LA Clippers	24.4
4	San Antonio	24.4
5	Boston	        24.3
6	Washington	23.9
7	Milwaukee	23.3
8	Dallas	        22.4
9	Houston	        22.1
10	New Orleans	22.1
11	Denver	        21.8
12	Chicago	        21.8
13	Portland	21.6
14	Minnesota	21.6
15	Detroit	        21.6
16	Memphis	        21.5
17	Indiana	        21.4
18	Cleveland	21.4
19	New York	21.3

Sure they couldn't finish and made too many Turnovers but we have to remember just who we had playing last year in the 1st year of implementing the Triangle. Any team that moves the ball that much with a lack of talent is going to have some issues.

You have to give it some time. What exactly is your time frame for a player to be developed? Half a season? One Full season in a new style of play? No one said that just playing in the Triangle alone is player development. The thing is that you are making the case that somehow teaching young players how to think the game, as you must in the Triangle, is not valuable. I'm telling you that the things Phil is having these young players learn is very valuable to player development. Phil is having these young players learn the same principles he's been teaching his teams for 20 years. If you can't understand how valuable those things are then I can't see how anyone could please you in terms of developing this team.

nixluva wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:Seems to me that Phil has already shifted the focus in a major way. This is a team that has put player development more to the forefront. If I have to read one more person talk about the Triangle in a negative way i'm going to lose it!!! The Triangle is 110% about teaching players to think the game and learn how to play without the ball. Ball and Player movement is at the heart of the system. Unselfishness is at the heart of the system. These are the things that Phil is all about. Beyond the talent you have to have players who want to play unselfishly. That's what the focus of the system is all about.

Let's take for example how they taught the Summer League team to defend. They did that at a high level for the most part. Aside from one bad game that SL team was getting after it. This is what player development is all about. We've got a good amount of young players and I'm sure we'll take a look at more in Training Camp, if not for the roster, then surely development in the D League. We've see before that it can help to have some vets mixed in.

   	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	COLLEGE	        2015-2016 SALARY
1. 	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	20	7-3	230	 	        $4,131,720
2. 	Jerian Grant	        PG	22	6-5	205	Notre Dame	$1,572,360
3.	Langston Galloway	PG	23	6-2	200	Saint Joseph's	$845,059
4. 	Cleanthony Early	SF	24	6-8	220	Wichita State	$845,059
5. 	Derrick Williams	PF	24	6-8	240	Arizona	        $4,000,000
6.	Kyle O'Quinn	        PF	25	6-10	250	Norfolk State	$3,750,000
7. 	Robin Lopez	        C	27	7-0	255	Stanford	$12,650,000
8. 	Lance Thomas	        SF	27	6-8	225	Duke	        $1,636,842
9.	Arron Afflalo	        SG	29	6-5	215	UCLA	        $8,000,000
10	Carmelo Anthony	        SF	31	6-8	240	Syracuse	$22,875,000
11.     Sasha Vujacic           SG      31      6-7     195
12.	Lou Amundson	        PF	32	6-9	225	UNLV	        $1,650,000
13.	Jose Calderon	        PG	33	6-3	200	 	        $7,402,812

I disagree that just adding players that need to be developed equals player development. I also disagree that just playing in the triangle equals player development. Also, for a team predicated on ball movement, our passing fundamentals suck. Can they at the very least learn to make crisp on target passes?

1. You do realize that you MUST bring in young talent in order to meet the minimum requirement of "Developing Young Players" as the title of your thread suggests.

2. No one is suggesting that simply playing your kids in the Triangle equals player development. Do you realize what they're actually teaching our young players to do in the Triangle? I think perhaps you don't really understand what is involved. If you did you wouldn't be saying what you did above.

You can't "Just Play" in the Triangle. Players MUST learn the spacing, footwork, timing, passing, motion and the rules of the system to counter what the defense does. They must learn how to read the defense and make the right decision with the ball. They have to be alert and look for each other at all times. You can't just roll the ball out and have any player function in the Triangle. It's too detail oriented for that to happen. Every Player has to learn to use all of their skills. They can't hide out in a corner or not learn how to pass and cut effectively. Big men can't expect not to handle the ball a lot more than in many other systems. Why do you think this system requires players with a high BB IQ and skills?

3. The team's passing and fundamentals may have needed more work but they didn't suck. It's a work in progress or do you think Player Development means that players instantly become perfect at all areas of the game? It takes time and work. As a team the Knicks last year despite not having much talent were among the better teams in terms of assists. If they could actually make some shots they would've been top 10.

Rank	Team	        2014
1	Golden State	26.8	
2	Atlanta	        25.4
3	LA Clippers	24.4
4	San Antonio	24.4
5	Boston	        24.3
6	Washington	23.9
7	Milwaukee	23.3
8	Dallas	        22.4
9	Houston	        22.1
10	New Orleans	22.1
11	Denver	        21.8
12	Chicago	        21.8
13	Portland	21.6
14	Minnesota	21.6
15	Detroit	        21.6
16	Memphis	        21.5
17	Indiana	        21.4
18	Cleveland	21.4
19	New York	21.3

Sure they couldn't finish and made too many Turnovers but we have to remember just who we had playing last year in the 1st year of implementing the Triangle. Any team that moves the ball that much with a lack of talent is going to have some issues.

You have to give it some time. What exactly is your time frame for a player to be developed? Half a season? One Full season in a new style of play? No one said that just playing in the Triangle alone is player development. The thing is that you are making the case that somehow teaching young players how to think the game, as you must in the Triangle, is not valuable. I'm telling you that the things Phil is having these young players learn is very valuable to player development. Phil is having these young players learn the same principles he's been teaching his teams for 20 years. If you can't understand how valuable those things are then I can't see how anyone could please you in terms of developing this team.

I am talking about a program targeting a specific area of improvement for individual players and having a designated coach to implement, monitor, drill and help individual players develop skills. Maybe adding a development coach to the staff like Gates would be a good idea with so many young projects on the roster, what are you talking about?

For example. Cleathony Early has to be the worst passer on the team. His passes are lazy and off target and he telegraphs his passes. A developmental coach could take him aside and work on passing drills so that he can improve his passing fundamentals which are very weak. This would help him be a more productive player in our offense. I don't think telling him to play better defense if he wants playing time addresses fundament areas of his game he needs to drill in.

If you would like me to see your point of view, I will need some data indicating any improvement by any of those players under ooh development team. They have great credentials, but how about some results. I don't expect 10 for 10 but I would like to see some progress with at least one or two of our development players. We are not in practices, do you know if they work individually with players or is it all running triangle sets and concepts?

Rookie wrote:Why are we so bad at developing young players?

When Barry Bonds was at the height of his homerun hitting prowess as a SF Giant, he was one of the most lethal hitters in baseball history. Teams would literally intentionally walk him to START an inning. Some teams finally gave up and would INTENTIONALLY WALK him with the BASES LOADED rather than pitch to him.

The guy was a one man wrecking crew with the baseball bat.

But the dude was a gigantic jack off. One of his most talented teammates, Jeff Kent, one of the best 2nd basemen offensively in MLB history, hated his guts. Bonds had a huge reclining chair facing THREE LOCKERS he had in one corner of the locker room. His manager, Dusty Baker, had a simple policy with Bonds, let him do whatever he wants. If Bonds wanted to stretch, then he would, if he didn't, no one said anything. He came and left the ball park on his own schedule, as long as he made game time.

His father, before he died, in a classic interview, asked his son Barry to do a short meet and greet with some survivors from the 9/11 site, Barry said no. There were times that Bonds apparently said no to things like Make A Wish, charity events or even signings and team building outings.

Great player. Lousy team leader. Lousy example. Always at war with the press. Put his manager in a bad spot. Made it clear - There are two kinds of rules here. The ones for super stars and the ones for everyone else.

When Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are at practice and run drills, they run them with everyone else. They don't slack, they don't take a day off, they put in the blood and sweat along with the rest of the troops.

Steve Kerr constantly compliments Stephen Curry, saying he will never refuse anything and works harder than anyone else, because he understands you can't lead if you aren't willing to do your share and more than everyone else.

Kyle Anderson gets drafted by the Spurs. He sees that there is only one way. The right way. The team way. Winning above all else.

James Michael McAdoo did well in Summer League, but he understands that by being a Warrior, he has to put in, work and be willing to subvert for the team good to get minutes. I'm sure watching David Lee take being benched in stride, helped.

Mike Woodson let Carmelo Anthony do whatever he wanted. He probably figured out fast that the last coach tried to do it another way and Melo got him fired. Why does Tim Hardaway Jr feel he has to work on his defense when he sees no one hold Melo accountable for lack of defense? Why does he need to move well off the ball or sacrifice when he doesn't see Melo do it. Why feel accountable for good shot selection when Melo doesn't care and shotjacks.

Part of the issue is the players drafted.
Part of the issue is management.

But a big part of it is a failure in leadership by Melo.

The SF Giants won three World Series WITHOUT Barry Bonds. They lost the one WS they were in before with him.

They won as a TEAM.

You can't lead and win and develop young guys the right way if you have the kind of player who thinks its ok to sit on a 10K recliner in front of his three giant lockers and decide what he wants to do or not do. (i.e. play in an All Star game for "Branding" while risking the rest of his Knicks contract)

You either play the right way or you don't, and if you don't, you can enforce young players to play the right way themselves.

TripleThreat wrote:

Rookie wrote:Why are we so bad at developing young players?

When Barry Bonds was at the height of his homerun hitting prowess as a SF Giant, he was one of the most lethal hitters in baseball history. Teams would literally intentionally walk him to START an inning. Some teams finally gave up and would INTENTIONALLY WALK him with the BASES LOADED rather than pitch to him.

The guy was a one man wrecking crew with the baseball bat.

But the dude was a gigantic jack off. One of his most talented teammates, Jeff Kent, one of the best 2nd basemen offensively in MLB history, hated his guts. Bonds had a huge reclining chair facing THREE LOCKERS he had in one corner of the locker room. His manager, Dusty Baker, had a simple policy with Bonds, let him do whatever he wants. If Bonds wanted to stretch, then he would, if he didn't, no one said anything. He came and left the ball park on his own schedule, as long as he made game time.

His father, before he died, in a classic interview, asked his son Barry to do a short meet and greet with some survivors from the 9/11 site, Barry said no. There were times that Bonds apparently said no to things like Make A Wish, charity events or even signings and team building outings.

Great player. Lousy team leader. Lousy example. Always at war with the press. Put his manager in a bad spot. Made it clear - There are two kinds of rules here. The ones for super stars and the ones for everyone else.

When Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are at practice and run drills, they run them with everyone else. They don't slack, they don't take a day off, they put in the blood and sweat along with the rest of the troops.

Steve Kerr constantly compliments Stephen Curry, saying he will never refuse anything and works harder than anyone else, because he understands you can't lead if you aren't willing to do your share and more than everyone else.

Kyle Anderson gets drafted by the Spurs. He sees that there is only one way. The right way. The team way. Winning above all else.

James Michael McAdoo did well in Summer League, but he understands that by being a Warrior, he has to put in, work and be willing to subvert for the team good to get minutes. I'm sure watching David Lee take being benched in stride, helped.

Mike Woodson let Carmelo Anthony do whatever he wanted. He probably figured out fast that the last coach tried to do it another way and Melo got him fired. Why does Tim Hardaway Jr feel he has to work on his defense when he sees no one hold Melo accountable for lack of defense? Why does he need to move well off the ball or sacrifice when he doesn't see Melo do it. Why feel accountable for good shot selection when Melo doesn't care and shotjacks.

Part of the issue is the players drafted.
Part of the issue is management.

But a big part of it is a failure in leadership by Melo.

The SF Giants won three World Series WITHOUT Barry Bonds. They lost the one WS they were in before with him.

They won as a TEAM.

You can't lead and win and develop young guys the right way if you have the kind of player who thinks its ok to sit on a 10K recliner in front of his three giant lockers and decide what he wants to do or not do. (i.e. play in an All Star game for "Branding" while risking the rest of his Knicks contract)

You either play the right way or you don't, and if you don't, you can enforce young players to play the right way themselves.

Great insight. Let me introduce you to the real world. And a bit
of Knick history. Hardaway could not play defense and played like he was playing in the rookie game at the All Star game. Only understood scoring. Very little basketball IQ.
Shumpert could not shoot with any consistency. But you are totally
right, it's Melo's fault they did not get better. Most NBA All Stars
take time out of the day to work on other players weaknesses.

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I asked this question when wondering why so many players from the Shumpert draft had established strong careers so far and Shumpert seemed to be falling behind. The common conclusion was that we didn't draft enough so it seems worse then it is. And there never seemed to be any long term plan.

So many? Curious to who these players are, as that draft has alot of busts in it, matter of fact we just signed the #2 pick in that draft. Only Jimmy Butler that was drafted after Shumpert has amounted to anything remotely deemed a strong career. The second round only yielded Chandler Parsons and maybe Isiah Thomas.

It was about the draft as a whole not just players taken after Shumpert. Strong careers may have been an overstatement but there were many quality players taken out of that draft. I think I used the words that this draft produced many starters. Irving, Kanter, Tristan, Valaniunus, Knight, Walker, Klay, Burks, Morris twins, Leonard, Vucevic, Harris, Faried, Jackson, Butler, Parsons, Thomas, *Mirotic

17-18 starters out of a draft is amazing not even counting Shump if he starts for Cleveland.

To be fair, David Lee was our successful developed product to a large extent.

StarksEwing1 wrote:I think part of the reason is the lack of draft picks esepcially from 2003-2014. We lost a lot of picks through bad trades. However we have had some successes. I consider David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari all to be good players we developed lately. Hopefully Porzingis and Grant are the next batch of good young talent we develop

and trade