TripleThreat wrote:
- Do you see most other rebuilding professional sports teams giving roster spots to guys out of their respective league and sport for two years? I mean ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT. It doesn't happen often, most of the time, the end result is not positive.

Not sure of the examples working or failing with rebuilding teams but the NBA is not really like MLB or the NFL in this regard. It is becomming a global sport more like Euro Soccer where players sometimes move out to play in other countries/lesser leagues. This is not to say that Sasha will thrive in his NBA return as a Knick.

IMO Phil is trying to work the team with Melo still in the fold.....so he probably wants strong character guys at the fringe instead of young impressionable or potentially flaky role players. The future is kids like KP and Grant, but any manager in any business still has to deal with the now.

My belief is that unless the team is playoff caliber Melo will ask/agree to be traded somewhere in the next year.

WaltLongmire wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:sorry
I like some of the knicks off season moves,
many was turning nothing to something for upcoming camp

However this Sasha Vujacic is a waste of $$$
and time by Phil Jackson

We never learn from these things
what has this guy done ? ? ?
since the LAL Kobe last championship yrs, with Gasol ?

This makes no sense bringing in a washedup
Sasha Vujacic for sake of Triangle play

Go figure Jackson
could have saved the $$$signing for someone else

Sasha Vujacic will not work in NY
maybe 3-5 yrs ago

You got to be kidding me ?

I'm going to give Jackson the benefit of the doubt on this signing for now.

I think many of us look at this type of signing with losing out on Ndour still fresh in our minds.

Have to say that it did catch me by surprise, though- I would rather have signed him to a training camp deal and made him earn a guaranteed contract.

With that said, he's been playing overseas, and maybe they've seen him play enough, and added to his history with Jackson, this is what got him a contract.

Hope he shows he is worthy of a roster spot.

I am going to be like most & agree
I have gave Phil J. benefit of doubt last season before we tanked
I have gave Phil benefit of doubt when he gave away few players Tyson, JR, Shump without much
in return to show , though many of these exknicks "played" their way outta knickland and also
QUIT on Knicks/Woodson and team with perhaps exception of Iman Shumpert.

I even give Phil benefit now in these summer moves 2015 throwaway 2015/16 season
but improved roster with some hope down the road.

However Sasha? he made NBA and famed Laker team on talents he was a decent good player
and also deserves some respect

But hear me out $contract ? or money was Alexey Shved? not BETTER Than Sasha ?
worthy of few $bucks based on what he showned ?

I rather have Alexey Shved than current pickup Derrick Williams whom is PF/F version of JR Smith
talented , skilled but limited skillsetwise but also a 'head' case.

Alexey Shved was a safe resigning
Ricky Ledo was a safre resigning,

Both Ledo and Alexey Shved expressed being happy in NY and WANTED TO BE HERE
period.! exclamation point

Sasha Vujacic could really care LESS about being in NewYork the mecca, the fans best base
is my dissatisfaction with signing Sasha whom is here more for $$$ money & triangle offense
as opposed to being a GOOD FIT in New York City Knickerbocker roster.

This signing is mistake,
he's a guard And I hope R.Ledo gets another shot in Oct. 2015 camp here or someplace in NBA

We did fine this summer acquistions, Phil J did the most with LEAST (1 sole NBA 4th pick)
we do not Need a Sasha Vujacic whom I guarantee for minimum minutes played he'll spend more
time in street clothes injured than being a contributor, even in locker room. Hope I am wrong.
Guy is shot and reason he wasn't in media stories in NBA last several years

Generally summarizing I do believe in Phil for now, gets benefit barely here...still a rook' at GM/prez.

Nalod wrote:Vujacic>Shved
Triangle proven.
Simple. Costs a lot less.

So Lakers won in Triangle schemes ? because of mainly Sasha part of it ?
really ?

martin wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:

Nalod wrote:Vujacic>Shved
Triangle proven.
Simple. Costs a lot less.

So Lakers won in Triangle schemes ? because of mainly Sasha part of it ?
really ?

You thought that's what Nalod was alluding to? really? not the Sasha v Shved dynamic?

You know when Shved was here getting Knicks few wins
wasnt that the time(s) Prez Phil Jackson said publicly "Forget about the Triangle" offense ?

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/02/phil-jackson-now-says-forget-the-triangle-offense/

clarify ? maybe Phil stated forgetta about it
cause Knicks won few games and fans got excited about seeing some good play from Knicks late season April 2015
eh?

To KNICKs Fans & DJ !

The guys we had were not buying in and not using their talents within the system. If you're not even going to try then it's gonna make the system look very robotic. When he made the trade the guys that came in actually bought in and were trying. They may not have had the talent but you could see that they were giving it their all. The way the team looked in Summer League is closer to how it should look. Playing fast and using their instincts and skills, but when it's needed they can reset and get into the Triangle stuff. There's a balance. Think about it, when did the Lakers or Bulls ever look robotic? Regardless of system you've still got to play the game.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:I was responding to your post because it was full of worst case scenarios and a totally pessimistic take on the players you mentioned and the team overall. Of course those bad things can happen, but there's no balance to your posts, which is why I can't take them seriously. You think everyone needs to make posts covering every conceivable impact this year and in the future. Who the F has time to address all these issues every time they post? Most people are just making simple points, not writing their F'n dissertation!!! You make some good points but then you always go overboard with the negativity.

My points are not worst case scenario, they are about pragmatism.

Every time you buy a product, anywhere in the world, within the price accounts for shrinkage, theft, loss, waste, etc, etc.

Most of these corporations you see advertising at MSG or for the NBA, they set aside money each year for expected losses and possible litigation.

You have insurance don't you? Car insurance. Health insurance. Homeowner's insurance. Maybe life insurance.

The company you work for made you sign lots of documentation upon hire didn't they? Why? Liability prevention.

You live in a world full of risk assessment, where things don't always go according to plan and often they go very far off the plan. Yet you always posit some scenario that requires 50-60 individual things to line up in order for your theories to fly, with no chance for failure, regression or any other consideration.

Jose Calderon is 33 today, he will be 34 by next month and into the next NBA season. Statistically speaking, he is more likely to miss games due to injury because of 1) Age and 2) Previous history of injury. This is a statistical reality. And beyond that, just from the basic eyeball test from the average sports fan could tell you no Knicks fan should rely on Calderon's health. He gets injured, and now Vujacic is the 4th guard on the roster and in the back end of the rotation.

Jerian Grant is a rookie. Rookies often struggle, often they get benched, sometimes they get hurt, sometimes they are sat because they hit the rookie wall and need to be paced out to prevent possible injury. In any case, no one can be assured that Grant will be a full time member of the rotation the entire year.

With just ONE thing going off the rails, Vujacic is in the rotation, with TWO THINGS, he's now the third guard. After spending a couple of years out of the NBA.

The reasons you don't account for things like this and I do are several

1) You are too arrogant to accept that there are a lot of nuances about the NBA, the salary cap, the CBA, team building, that you just don't understand

2) You spend more time telling people they are wrong when over time, you are wrong time and time again on the things you say on this board

and

3) I'm actually as smart about the NBA, the CBA, team building, market forces in the league, roster construction and NBA Draft history as you think you are. The bitter irony of it all is if you shut up and listened sometime, instead of waiting to retort back with your Phil ball licking, you might actually learn something.

You don't see the "balance" in anyone's posts because you only care about the part where they have the gall to disagree with you.

While my viewpoint isn't full of sexy roster moves and signings and outlandish trade rapes and far fetched roster scenarios and it's not about sensational headlines and following the media narrative like a sheep, it is very close to how a functional NBA General Manager will think and operate. Bill Walsh said it best, in pro sports, personnel men "crave certainty" whenever possible. Real professional sports franchises, the successful ones, aren't built overnight the way some of you want, they are built slow and boring and pragmatic, with a nose to the grindstone.

See the dumb bitch who snorts and chuckles from ignorance? That's you.
See the hardcore cooze who takes her to school? That's me.

You know what I remember? When you finally stopped talking BS about other people's posts and actually posted a proposed roster of your own, it was CRAP!!! Stop acting like you're the voice of reason when mostly you just sit back and take pot shots at other people's posts, but don't really offer up much of anything worth mentioning most of the time. You rarely stick your neck on the line with solutions yourself and as I said, the one time of note that you did, it was garbage.

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:Pivot - Robin Lopez
Primary Wing - Devin Booker
Secondary Wing - Jae Crowder
Power Forward - Larry Sanders
Point Guard - Aaron Brooks

Sixth Man - Carmelo Anthony
Third Guard - Langston Galloway
Fourth Guard/Shooting Specialist - Jose Calderon
Bench Enforcer - Chuck Hayes
Rotational Big - Luis Scola
Developmental - Tim Hardaway Jr/Orlando Sanchez/Thansis Antekoumpo

My "ideal" offseason would be to sign Robin Lopez, Jae Crowder, Aaron Brooks, Larry Sanders, Chuck Hayes and Luis Scola in free agency.
Lopez isn't dominant in any one area but helps you in every area. Does a lot of positive things that doesn't end up in a stat sheet. Even with a slight overpay, will be trade worthy if need be as long he's healthy. Jae Crowder is young and a plus defender with hope his offense can develop more. Aaron Brooks is older but the Knicks need stability at point guard. He's not going to run out plus defense but the Knicks as constructed can hide him a little bit. The guy can flat out ball and he's not going to cost a ton. Sanders is being paid by the Bucks not to play for them. He's young, a true defensive difference maker and can run with anyone if his head is right. He's the right kind of player to take a flier on at the right cost and upside. Best part is he can come subsidized and if he doesn't work out, can be cut. Hayes and Scola offer veteran leadership and locker room stability.

Melo shifts to a 6th man role, where he can provide offensive punch and be hidden by a defense suited to limit his defensive lapses. Galloway provides youth and energy and defense off the bench, giving him a less intensive role to develop and work on his long range shooting. Calderon moves to a reserve role, again, set up where a defense can do their best to hide him. Hardaway Jr/Sanchez and Greek Freak 2.0 all get end of the roster roles to try to develop with less pressure.

Devin Booker IMHO is the best draft prospect outside of the top three ( Okafor, Towns and Russell). He won't be a value selection at No#4, but the hope is the Knicks can trade down, pick up Booker, who can shoot long range at an elite level , play the wing and play tough plus defense, and hopefully some future draft assets as well. Booker would be my personal choice for the "right pick" this year, though again, the hope is the Knicks can move down from the 4 slot in a trade to get Booker.

IMHO, this is the best compromise of a roster build that offers defense, shifts Melo into a functional role to his strengths, and factors in what the Knicks can probably get in the trade market/free agency and offer at least some type of competitive roster.

oMG well he finally sticks his neck out there and shucks for breaking everyone else balls he comes up with a roster filled with retired players dramatic draft reaches guys past their prime and the slowest team that anyone could hope to put together without trying..while using Carmelo as a sixth man Triple threat with this post you lose all privileges to break cahones on anyone else ideas. If there was an ultimateknicks d league we'd have to send you down.

Ha, I always enjoy it when the more ardent critics on these boards actually come out and propose something, because it's usually awful! But at least he proposed something- Bonn1997 never dares to, or claims he did at some point in the distant past and for some reason cannot retype it.

It's all fair in love and war. I get bashed all the time for my predictions over the years but that's because I actually put it out there. I have respect for anyone brave enough to put it out there, but at the same time most of us can disagree without the ugly personal attacks. We can even get upset but there's just a line that most don't cross and it's been that way for the most part with the exception of a few who IMO take it too far, too often. We're all adults here and can take criticism, but I just find it amazing when the guys that get the most ugly and personal finally put up, it's something less than impressive.

I don't like doing this kind of stuff, but since you took at shot at me. I'll Give you credit for getting RoLo right. Very logical option, but the rest of that roster...

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote: Nothing wrong with most of your points above. What I have more of a problem with is your need to get personal. I could do without the personal shots, which you love to take.

You know what I remember? When you finally stopped talking BS about other people's posts and actually posted a proposed roster of your own, it was CRAP!!! Stop acting like you're the voice of reason when mostly you just sit back and take pot shots at other people's posts, but don't really offer up much of anything worth mentioning most of the time. You rarely stick your neck on the line with solutions yourself and as I said, the one time of note that you did, it was garbage.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52189

Here you have nixluva kissing Robin Lopez's butt and singing about all his positive attributes.

*****

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1291977&t=51292&page=3

nixluva wrote:Robin Lopez is OK if mediocre is what you want.....

And here is nixluva's view of Robin Lopez when I suggested him, and before Phil Jackson signed him.

So what is it? The object of your desire after Phil signs him? Or mediocre?

What you do isn't OPTIMISM, it's DENIAL.

You will blindly say anything Phil Jackson does is awesome, no matter what he does. Like a sheep. Like a lemming jumping off a cliff. Even if it contradicts you because you just need to disagree with people you just don't like.

Point to note nixluva, I don't go out of my way to make you feel stupid. I point out that things you say that make absolutely no sense at all. The feeling stupid part you do on your own.

Here's the sad part. Take me out of the equation. If you spent as much time reading the CBA, trade analysis, looking at NBA Draft history, listening to podcast, looking at some advanced stats, watching market trends in the league, if you did that as much as you spent dismissing people with your optimism, if you could do that with just a shred of humility, you might actually have learned something new about the game itself.

You are your own worst enemy.

nixluva wrote:In trying to be more METRIC in our approach to building a top 6 rotation this summer, I think we should prioritize Free Agents along the lines of their Win Share 48 rankings. I say this since it seems the only way to avoid the bickering about players that goes on where some view a player as worth it and others don't. So to make it as fair as possible it seems that this is one way to cut the noise and just make a list that is essentially BPA by it's nature. Like a Pro Draft.

So i've compiled this list of Free Agents with the best WS/48. Now you also have to look at the players Age, TS%, PER, WS, minutes and games played etc., but this at least gives us a means to compare a free agent's value and possible impact. According to Basketball Reference the league average is at .100 so I didn't add any players at or below that level. There were a LOT of players below that level.

Rk	Player	                Pos	Age	Tm	G	MP	PER	TS%	WS	WS/48 ▾
1	Brandan Wright	        PF	27	TOT	66	1214	21.6	.681	5.7	.227	
2	DeAndre Jordan	        C	26	LAC	71	2455	20.5	.641	10.6	.207
3	Jimmy Butler	        SG	25	CHI	56	2180	21.0	.577	9.3	.204
4	Jeremy Evans	        SF	27	UTA	28	144	18.1	.586	0.6	.190
5	Kawhi Leonard	        SF	23	SAS	52	1669	21.1	.551	6.5	.186
6	Marc Gasol	        C	30	MEM	70	2361	21.7	.561	9.1	.185
7	LaMarcus Aldridge	PF	29	POR	61	2180	22.8	.528	7.6	.168
8	Draymond Green	        SF	24	GSW	71	2258	16.5	.543	7.9	.168
9	Kevin Love	        PF	26	CLE	67	2296	18.9	.556	8.0	.167
10	Alexis Ajinca	        C	26	NOP	56	816	20.1	.601	2.7	.162
11	Paul Millsap	        PF	29	ATL	67	2218	19.9	.568	7.5	.162
12	Danny Green	        SG	27	SAS	69	2036	16.7	.588	6.7	.157
13	Jeff Withey	        C	24	NOP	35	248	18.1	.570	0.8	.157
14	Bismack Biyombo	        C	22	CHO	51	887	15.0	.578	2.9	.154
15	Jerome Jordan	        C	28	BRK	41	366	16.8	.609	1.2	.151
16	John Jenkins	        SG	23	ATL	18	190	15.9	.689	0.6	.150
17	DeMarre Carroll	        SF	28	ATL	60	1887	15.1	.594	5.8	.148
18	Robin Lopez	        C	26	POR	46	1302	16.1	.564	4.0	.148
19	Wesley Matthews	        SG	28	POR	60	2024	16.1	.585	6.2	.148
20	Greg Monroe	        PF	24	DET	64	1991	21.0	.548	6.1	.148
21	Tristan Thompson	PF	23	CLE	72	1970	15.6	.577	6.0	.147
22	Anthony Morrow	        SG	29	OKC	63	1504	14.2	.594	4.5	.145
23	Lavoy Allen	        PF	25	IND	51	945	16.0	.513	2.8	.144
24	Jeff Ayres	        PF	27	SAS	41	316	13.7	.616	0.9	.144
25	Cory Joseph	        PG	23	SAS	67	1273	15.3	.565	3.7	.141
26	Khris Middleton	        PF	23	MIL	68	2024	15.8	.566	5.8	.139
27	Alexey Shved	        SG	26	TOT	42	767	19.5	.541	2.2	.135
28	Jonas Jerebko	        PF	27	TOT	63	1016	14.5	.559	2.8	.132
29	Goran Dragic	        SG-PG	28	TOT	67	2254	17.7	.580	6.2	.131
30	Enes Kanter	        C	22	TOT	64	1780	19.5	.555	4.8	.130
31	Omer Asik	        C	28	NOP	64	1666	16.0	.554	4.4	.126
32	Brandon Bass	        PF	29	BOS	70	1633	16.4	.549	4.3	.126
33	Amir Johnson	        PF	27	TOR	68	1810	15.2	.604	4.6	.121
34      Luis Scola	        PF	34	IND	69	1420	16.7	.513	3.6	.121
35	Greg Smith	        PF	24	DAL	40	355	10.6	.614	0.9	.117
36	Brandon Knight	        PG-SG	23	TOT	62	2013	17.5	.547	4.7	.112
37	Kosta Koufos	        C	25	MEM	70	1162	13.6	.525	2.7	.111
38	John Lucas	        PG	32	DET	12	140	14.9	.472	0.3	.110
39	Jae Crowder	        SF	24	TOT	71	1374	13.9	.513	3.1	.109
40	Joel Freeland	        C	27	POR	37	476	11.0	.495	1.0	.105
41	Marco Belinelli	        SG	28	SAS	51	1165	12.8	.557	2.5	.102

SO! This is a very interesting list and picking players from it would seem to make the most sense in terms of measurable impact. Purely clinical. No passion involved.