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nixluva
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8/1/2015  5:55 PM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
tj23 wrote:He better box out well because his defensive rebounding numbers are atrocious

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/07/06/robin-lopez-and-rebound-value/#fnref-5885-4

Robin Lopez and Rebound Value
Posted on July 6, 2015 by Seth Partnow

Mar 27, 2015; Phoenix, AZ, USA; Portland Trail Blazers forward LaMarcus Aldridge (12) celebrates with center Robin Lopez (42) after making a basket against the Phoenix Suns during the second half at US Airways Center. The Trail Blazers won the game 87-81. Mandatory Credit: Joe Camporeale-USA TODAY Sports

By some estimation, the Knicks have had a disappointing start to free agency. They whiffed on most of the big names,1 only landing role-player types Arron Afflalo and Robin Lopez. Lopez in particular has raised eyebrows, getting $54 million over 4 years for a center who is best described as “workmanlike.” It sure seems like a lot of money for a guy who averaged 9.6 points and only 6.7 rebounds last season.

Of course, the topline numbers aren’t all there are to Lopez. He’s been a good-to-very-good rim protector http://nyloncalculus.com/2014/07/22/protecting-paint-sportvu-rim-protection/ over the two years for which we have data http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/. He’s an efficient scorer largely because he knows his limitations. Especially for a big man, he’s an excellent foul shooter, 77% or above for each of the last three years. Still, for the Knicks those numbers are vaguely underwhelming for a team which needs everything. Is 6.7 rebounds per game really going to cut it for a team that was 26th in defensive rebound rate last season?

It’s actually a trick question. A rebound is not always a rebound http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/01/19/bounding-stealin-examining-value-rebound-types/. As noted earlier this season, the available SportVU data can help us differentiate rebounds by type. A quick first pass indicates “uncontested2” defensive rebounds are “worth” about half as much as other rebounds. In many cases, these are the rebounds where by virtue of the fact that more defensive players than offensive ones are involved in chasing rebounds, the ball is going to bounce to a spot with no offensive player nearby quite frequently. In fact, roughly 57% of all rebounds last season were just this sort of “free” defensive rebound. A player looking to stat pad could get rich simply by gobbling these up at a high rate, perhaps even taking them away from teammates.

The general effect of what might be called rebound stealing (perjoratively) or simply diminishing returns to individual rebounding (more neutrally) has been discernable for much longer than we’ve had SportVU data http://blog.philbirnbaum.com/2011/01/do-players-steal-rebounding.html. But this newer data does allow us to see just who is grabbing more or less than their share of these “free” rebounds. Again mirroring findings by Phil Birnbaum in the above-linked post, rebounding by big man seems to be more impactful than from the wings3 While the overall NBA rate is 57% of rebounds are free defensive boards, among rotation bigs, that number is closer to 52%. In other words just over half of their rebounds are those that someone on their team would probably have ended up with, whereas the other half have been actually fought over.

Which leads us back to Robin Lopez. Among the set of 100 or so regular rotation bigs in the NBA last year, the lowest proportion of Lopez’s rebounds were these uncontested defensive types. Conversely his now ex-teammate LaMarcus Aldridge was among the leaders in highest proportion of uncontested defensive rebounds4:

RebTypes

This isn’t to suggest there was any sort of skullduggery going on in Portland. It could just as easily be that Lopez’s job was more to prevent his assignment (usually the opposition’s best offensive rebounder) from getting to the ball, which allowed Aldridge to use his greater mobility to track the ball down.5 That’s a sensible division of labor. But it does have the effect of making Lopez look like a “worse” rebounder than he probably is, when in actuality he was the guy most often sticking his nose in for the tough rebounds.

Whoever the Knicks run out next to him at power forward this coming year, he won’t have the same voracious appetites as Aldridge. While this puts more of an onus on Lopez to actually collect more of these rebounds, there is very little reason to suspect he won’t be able to expand into that void. Perhaps more importantly, Lopez’s willingness to battle will be vital to a team who gave up the 2nd highest6 rate uncontested offensive rebounds off of opponents’ misses last season, with 9.5% of all forced misses being recovered by the offense with no Knick nearby.7

While the mop-headed, mascot-hating Lopez might not be the big name supporters were hoping for, he provides exactly the sort of solidity both on the boards and defensively needed for a foundation. While the team has more work to do to add the “exciting” bits to the team, Lopez is emblematic of this offseason being a good start to a gradual and considered building process.

Assuming DeAndre Jordan is in fact deciding between just the Clippers and the Mavs ↩
Per the SportVU definition of contesting a rebound is being within 3.5 feet, basically arms’s length, of the ball when the rebound is secured. ↩
This is just in terms of a simple question of grabbing more or fewer rebounds, some studies have suggested that rebounds by point guards in particular lead to better ensuing offensive possessions, but that’s another discussion for perhaps another day. ↩
The full list of rotation bigs playing 40 games with 15 minutes per game and at least 8 rebounds per 36 is below ↩
There was probably a little bit of a star system going on since “double-doubles” are still a thing and averaging ten boards a game probably had value to Aldridge over and above it’s value to the team’s success. There are far worse ways for a player to be “selfish” so long as it isn’t so blatant as to cause a rift within the team. ↩
To Minnesota. hi Karl-Anthony! ↩
The Spurs, being the bastion of proper fundamentals they are, allowed the lowest proportion of uncontested offensive rebounds, at only 6.7%. ↩

But wouldn't you want a player who is apt to grab more free rebounds than one who doesn't..This may also point to activity level of the individual..This stat is also telling me Lopez is rebounding on Tristan Thompson's level, minus the free rebounds, which is a tough sell...

Isn't it interesting that the two guys who have the least amount of free rebounds may also have the lowest motor of anyone in that group??


I'd think the number of contested rebounds the player is grabbing is a much better measure of energy and uncontested rebounds are more about who is randomly deferring to who. With a little extra work, I calculated the number of contested rebounds per 36 for each of these players.

NAME CONTESTED RBS
Drummond 9.063
Kanter 6.5992
Pachulia 6.174
Thompson 6.0696
B Lopez 5.6602
R Lopez 5.5854
Stoudemire 5.4245
Henson 5.2808
Gibson 5.1156
Johnson 4.897
Gortrat 4.347
Boozer 4.2024
Thompson 4.1376
Aldridge 4.0768
Garnett 4.0716
Leonard 3.738
Jefferson 3.6531
Acy 3.4
West 3.3745
Mirotic 3.2296

My question is why are others more capable of grabbing more uncontested rebounds than you are??..What is that saying about you??


Does it really matter? These are rebounds that by definition the other team has no chance of getting. And if you're trying to infer whether a player is lazy or has a poor motor, the number of uncontested rebounds he gets is probably the worst way to do it.

Sure it matters...I really don't trust the per 36 min stat..Every minute of a basketball game isn't equal..Your performance in the first 5 mins of a game doesn't equal the performance of the 30th-35th min...There may be a physical reason coaches don't play a certain player those extended minutes..

Contested rebounds is a subjective stat..What you might think is contested, I might not..Don't you find it most curious that it seems a certain player almost completely shuts down at the sight of an uncontested rebound..Maybe I'm looking a little too deep into it..But you never really know a player until he plays for your team..

The great Hubie Brown often says, If you aren't rebounding the basketball and you aren't back on defense, then where are you??

Nothing worse than empty stats. RoLo seems to be a guy that doesn't really look to pad his stats. He's a legit C who does the dirty work. The kind of Dirty work that LMA didn't want to do, which is why he didn't want to play Center. RoLo is putting his body on the line in the trenches. I think RoLo is taking himself out of some rebounding due to rim protection and help D. We needed a rim protector and a solid post presence who can score efficiently in the post, set screens and be an effective roll man. He's not pretty but he's effective.

We really have to make sure that the other players around RoLo take advantage of the rebound opportunities next season. It's not about just one guy. If you have a DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard who gobble up everything, then you're set but in our case we need everyone to take rebounding seriously.

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Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
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Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
8/1/2015  8:23 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
tj23 wrote:He better box out well because his defensive rebounding numbers are atrocious

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/07/06/robin-lopez-and-rebound-value/#fnref-5885-4

Robin Lopez and Rebound Value
Posted on July 6, 2015 by Seth Partnow

Mar 27, 2015; Phoenix, AZ, USA; Portland Trail Blazers forward LaMarcus Aldridge (12) celebrates with center Robin Lopez (42) after making a basket against the Phoenix Suns during the second half at US Airways Center. The Trail Blazers won the game 87-81. Mandatory Credit: Joe Camporeale-USA TODAY Sports

By some estimation, the Knicks have had a disappointing start to free agency. They whiffed on most of the big names,1 only landing role-player types Arron Afflalo and Robin Lopez. Lopez in particular has raised eyebrows, getting $54 million over 4 years for a center who is best described as “workmanlike.” It sure seems like a lot of money for a guy who averaged 9.6 points and only 6.7 rebounds last season.

Of course, the topline numbers aren’t all there are to Lopez. He’s been a good-to-very-good rim protector http://nyloncalculus.com/2014/07/22/protecting-paint-sportvu-rim-protection/ over the two years for which we have data http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/. He’s an efficient scorer largely because he knows his limitations. Especially for a big man, he’s an excellent foul shooter, 77% or above for each of the last three years. Still, for the Knicks those numbers are vaguely underwhelming for a team which needs everything. Is 6.7 rebounds per game really going to cut it for a team that was 26th in defensive rebound rate last season?

It’s actually a trick question. A rebound is not always a rebound http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/01/19/bounding-stealin-examining-value-rebound-types/. As noted earlier this season, the available SportVU data can help us differentiate rebounds by type. A quick first pass indicates “uncontested2” defensive rebounds are “worth” about half as much as other rebounds. In many cases, these are the rebounds where by virtue of the fact that more defensive players than offensive ones are involved in chasing rebounds, the ball is going to bounce to a spot with no offensive player nearby quite frequently. In fact, roughly 57% of all rebounds last season were just this sort of “free” defensive rebound. A player looking to stat pad could get rich simply by gobbling these up at a high rate, perhaps even taking them away from teammates.

The general effect of what might be called rebound stealing (perjoratively) or simply diminishing returns to individual rebounding (more neutrally) has been discernable for much longer than we’ve had SportVU data http://blog.philbirnbaum.com/2011/01/do-players-steal-rebounding.html. But this newer data does allow us to see just who is grabbing more or less than their share of these “free” rebounds. Again mirroring findings by Phil Birnbaum in the above-linked post, rebounding by big man seems to be more impactful than from the wings3 While the overall NBA rate is 57% of rebounds are free defensive boards, among rotation bigs, that number is closer to 52%. In other words just over half of their rebounds are those that someone on their team would probably have ended up with, whereas the other half have been actually fought over.

Which leads us back to Robin Lopez. Among the set of 100 or so regular rotation bigs in the NBA last year, the lowest proportion of Lopez’s rebounds were these uncontested defensive types. Conversely his now ex-teammate LaMarcus Aldridge was among the leaders in highest proportion of uncontested defensive rebounds4:

RebTypes

This isn’t to suggest there was any sort of skullduggery going on in Portland. It could just as easily be that Lopez’s job was more to prevent his assignment (usually the opposition’s best offensive rebounder) from getting to the ball, which allowed Aldridge to use his greater mobility to track the ball down.5 That’s a sensible division of labor. But it does have the effect of making Lopez look like a “worse” rebounder than he probably is, when in actuality he was the guy most often sticking his nose in for the tough rebounds.

Whoever the Knicks run out next to him at power forward this coming year, he won’t have the same voracious appetites as Aldridge. While this puts more of an onus on Lopez to actually collect more of these rebounds, there is very little reason to suspect he won’t be able to expand into that void. Perhaps more importantly, Lopez’s willingness to battle will be vital to a team who gave up the 2nd highest6 rate uncontested offensive rebounds off of opponents’ misses last season, with 9.5% of all forced misses being recovered by the offense with no Knick nearby.7

While the mop-headed, mascot-hating Lopez might not be the big name supporters were hoping for, he provides exactly the sort of solidity both on the boards and defensively needed for a foundation. While the team has more work to do to add the “exciting” bits to the team, Lopez is emblematic of this offseason being a good start to a gradual and considered building process.

Assuming DeAndre Jordan is in fact deciding between just the Clippers and the Mavs ↩
Per the SportVU definition of contesting a rebound is being within 3.5 feet, basically arms’s length, of the ball when the rebound is secured. ↩
This is just in terms of a simple question of grabbing more or fewer rebounds, some studies have suggested that rebounds by point guards in particular lead to better ensuing offensive possessions, but that’s another discussion for perhaps another day. ↩
The full list of rotation bigs playing 40 games with 15 minutes per game and at least 8 rebounds per 36 is below ↩
There was probably a little bit of a star system going on since “double-doubles” are still a thing and averaging ten boards a game probably had value to Aldridge over and above it’s value to the team’s success. There are far worse ways for a player to be “selfish” so long as it isn’t so blatant as to cause a rift within the team. ↩
To Minnesota. hi Karl-Anthony! ↩
The Spurs, being the bastion of proper fundamentals they are, allowed the lowest proportion of uncontested offensive rebounds, at only 6.7%. ↩

But wouldn't you want a player who is apt to grab more free rebounds than one who doesn't..This may also point to activity level of the individual..This stat is also telling me Lopez is rebounding on Tristan Thompson's level, minus the free rebounds, which is a tough sell...

Isn't it interesting that the two guys who have the least amount of free rebounds may also have the lowest motor of anyone in that group??


I'd think the number of contested rebounds the player is grabbing is a much better measure of energy and uncontested rebounds are more about who is randomly deferring to who. With a little extra work, I calculated the number of contested rebounds per 36 for each of these players.

NAME CONTESTED RBS
Drummond 9.063
Kanter 6.5992
Pachulia 6.174
Thompson 6.0696
B Lopez 5.6602
R Lopez 5.5854
Stoudemire 5.4245
Henson 5.2808
Gibson 5.1156
Johnson 4.897
Gortrat 4.347
Boozer 4.2024
Thompson 4.1376
Aldridge 4.0768
Garnett 4.0716
Leonard 3.738
Jefferson 3.6531
Acy 3.4
West 3.3745
Mirotic 3.2296

My question is why are others more capable of grabbing more uncontested rebounds than you are??..What is that saying about you??


Does it really matter? These are rebounds that by definition the other team has no chance of getting. And if you're trying to infer whether a player is lazy or has a poor motor, the number of uncontested rebounds he gets is probably the worst way to do it.

Sure it matters...I really don't trust the per 36 min stat..Every minute of a basketball game isn't equal..Your performance in the first 5 mins of a game doesn't equal the performance of the 30th-35th min...There may be a physical reason coaches don't play a certain player those extended minutes..

Contested rebounds is a subjective stat..What you might think is contested, I might not..Don't you find it most curious that it seems a certain player almost completely shuts down at the sight of an uncontested rebound..Maybe I'm looking a little too deep into it..But you never really know a player until he plays for your team..

The great Hubie Brown often says, If you aren't rebounding the basketball and you aren't back on defense, then where are you??

Nothing worse than empty stats. RoLo seems to be a guy that doesn't really look to pad his stats. He's a legit C who does the dirty work. The kind of Dirty work that LMA didn't want to do, which is why he didn't want to play Center. RoLo is putting his body on the line in the trenches. I think RoLo is taking himself out of some rebounding due to rim protection and help D. We needed a rim protector and a solid post presence who can score efficiently in the post, set screens and be an effective roll man. He's not pretty but he's effective.

We really have to make sure that the other players around RoLo take advantage of the rebound opportunities next season. It's not about just one guy. If you have a DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard who gobble up everything, then you're set but in our case we need everyone to take rebounding seriously.

Yeah I've never heard of a player being criticized for not grabbing enough uncontested rebounds

holfresh
Posts: 38679
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Joined: 1/14/2006
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8/1/2015  8:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/1/2015  8:45 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
tj23 wrote:He better box out well because his defensive rebounding numbers are atrocious

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/07/06/robin-lopez-and-rebound-value/#fnref-5885-4

Robin Lopez and Rebound Value
Posted on July 6, 2015 by Seth Partnow

Mar 27, 2015; Phoenix, AZ, USA; Portland Trail Blazers forward LaMarcus Aldridge (12) celebrates with center Robin Lopez (42) after making a basket against the Phoenix Suns during the second half at US Airways Center. The Trail Blazers won the game 87-81. Mandatory Credit: Joe Camporeale-USA TODAY Sports

By some estimation, the Knicks have had a disappointing start to free agency. They whiffed on most of the big names,1 only landing role-player types Arron Afflalo and Robin Lopez. Lopez in particular has raised eyebrows, getting $54 million over 4 years for a center who is best described as “workmanlike.” It sure seems like a lot of money for a guy who averaged 9.6 points and only 6.7 rebounds last season.

Of course, the topline numbers aren’t all there are to Lopez. He’s been a good-to-very-good rim protector http://nyloncalculus.com/2014/07/22/protecting-paint-sportvu-rim-protection/ over the two years for which we have data http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/. He’s an efficient scorer largely because he knows his limitations. Especially for a big man, he’s an excellent foul shooter, 77% or above for each of the last three years. Still, for the Knicks those numbers are vaguely underwhelming for a team which needs everything. Is 6.7 rebounds per game really going to cut it for a team that was 26th in defensive rebound rate last season?

It’s actually a trick question. A rebound is not always a rebound http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/01/19/bounding-stealin-examining-value-rebound-types/. As noted earlier this season, the available SportVU data can help us differentiate rebounds by type. A quick first pass indicates “uncontested2” defensive rebounds are “worth” about half as much as other rebounds. In many cases, these are the rebounds where by virtue of the fact that more defensive players than offensive ones are involved in chasing rebounds, the ball is going to bounce to a spot with no offensive player nearby quite frequently. In fact, roughly 57% of all rebounds last season were just this sort of “free” defensive rebound. A player looking to stat pad could get rich simply by gobbling these up at a high rate, perhaps even taking them away from teammates.

The general effect of what might be called rebound stealing (perjoratively) or simply diminishing returns to individual rebounding (more neutrally) has been discernable for much longer than we’ve had SportVU data http://blog.philbirnbaum.com/2011/01/do-players-steal-rebounding.html. But this newer data does allow us to see just who is grabbing more or less than their share of these “free” rebounds. Again mirroring findings by Phil Birnbaum in the above-linked post, rebounding by big man seems to be more impactful than from the wings3 While the overall NBA rate is 57% of rebounds are free defensive boards, among rotation bigs, that number is closer to 52%. In other words just over half of their rebounds are those that someone on their team would probably have ended up with, whereas the other half have been actually fought over.

Which leads us back to Robin Lopez. Among the set of 100 or so regular rotation bigs in the NBA last year, the lowest proportion of Lopez’s rebounds were these uncontested defensive types. Conversely his now ex-teammate LaMarcus Aldridge was among the leaders in highest proportion of uncontested defensive rebounds4:

RebTypes

This isn’t to suggest there was any sort of skullduggery going on in Portland. It could just as easily be that Lopez’s job was more to prevent his assignment (usually the opposition’s best offensive rebounder) from getting to the ball, which allowed Aldridge to use his greater mobility to track the ball down.5 That’s a sensible division of labor. But it does have the effect of making Lopez look like a “worse” rebounder than he probably is, when in actuality he was the guy most often sticking his nose in for the tough rebounds.

Whoever the Knicks run out next to him at power forward this coming year, he won’t have the same voracious appetites as Aldridge. While this puts more of an onus on Lopez to actually collect more of these rebounds, there is very little reason to suspect he won’t be able to expand into that void. Perhaps more importantly, Lopez’s willingness to battle will be vital to a team who gave up the 2nd highest6 rate uncontested offensive rebounds off of opponents’ misses last season, with 9.5% of all forced misses being recovered by the offense with no Knick nearby.7

While the mop-headed, mascot-hating Lopez might not be the big name supporters were hoping for, he provides exactly the sort of solidity both on the boards and defensively needed for a foundation. While the team has more work to do to add the “exciting” bits to the team, Lopez is emblematic of this offseason being a good start to a gradual and considered building process.

Assuming DeAndre Jordan is in fact deciding between just the Clippers and the Mavs ↩
Per the SportVU definition of contesting a rebound is being within 3.5 feet, basically arms’s length, of the ball when the rebound is secured. ↩
This is just in terms of a simple question of grabbing more or fewer rebounds, some studies have suggested that rebounds by point guards in particular lead to better ensuing offensive possessions, but that’s another discussion for perhaps another day. ↩
The full list of rotation bigs playing 40 games with 15 minutes per game and at least 8 rebounds per 36 is below ↩
There was probably a little bit of a star system going on since “double-doubles” are still a thing and averaging ten boards a game probably had value to Aldridge over and above it’s value to the team’s success. There are far worse ways for a player to be “selfish” so long as it isn’t so blatant as to cause a rift within the team. ↩
To Minnesota. hi Karl-Anthony! ↩
The Spurs, being the bastion of proper fundamentals they are, allowed the lowest proportion of uncontested offensive rebounds, at only 6.7%. ↩

But wouldn't you want a player who is apt to grab more free rebounds than one who doesn't..This may also point to activity level of the individual..This stat is also telling me Lopez is rebounding on Tristan Thompson's level, minus the free rebounds, which is a tough sell...

Isn't it interesting that the two guys who have the least amount of free rebounds may also have the lowest motor of anyone in that group??


I'd think the number of contested rebounds the player is grabbing is a much better measure of energy and uncontested rebounds are more about who is randomly deferring to who. With a little extra work, I calculated the number of contested rebounds per 36 for each of these players.

NAME CONTESTED RBS
Drummond 9.063
Kanter 6.5992
Pachulia 6.174
Thompson 6.0696
B Lopez 5.6602
R Lopez 5.5854
Stoudemire 5.4245
Henson 5.2808
Gibson 5.1156
Johnson 4.897
Gortrat 4.347
Boozer 4.2024
Thompson 4.1376
Aldridge 4.0768
Garnett 4.0716
Leonard 3.738
Jefferson 3.6531
Acy 3.4
West 3.3745
Mirotic 3.2296

My question is why are others more capable of grabbing more uncontested rebounds than you are??..What is that saying about you??


Does it really matter? These are rebounds that by definition the other team has no chance of getting. And if you're trying to infer whether a player is lazy or has a poor motor, the number of uncontested rebounds he gets is probably the worst way to do it.

Sure it matters...I really don't trust the per 36 min stat..Every minute of a basketball game isn't equal..Your performance in the first 5 mins of a game doesn't equal the performance of the 30th-35th min...There may be a physical reason coaches don't play a certain player those extended minutes..

Contested rebounds is a subjective stat..What you might think is contested, I might not..Don't you find it most curious that it seems a certain player almost completely shuts down at the sight of an uncontested rebound..Maybe I'm looking a little too deep into it..But you never really know a player until he plays for your team..

The great Hubie Brown often says, If you aren't rebounding the basketball and you aren't back on defense, then where are you??

Nothing worse than empty stats. RoLo seems to be a guy that doesn't really look to pad his stats. He's a legit C who does the dirty work. The kind of Dirty work that LMA didn't want to do, which is why he didn't want to play Center. RoLo is putting his body on the line in the trenches. I think RoLo is taking himself out of some rebounding due to rim protection and help D. We needed a rim protector and a solid post presence who can score efficiently in the post, set screens and be an effective roll man. He's not pretty but he's effective.

We really have to make sure that the other players around RoLo take advantage of the rebound opportunities next season. It's not about just one guy. If you have a DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard who gobble up everything, then you're set but in our case we need everyone to take rebounding seriously.

Yeah I've never heard of a player being criticized for not grabbing enough uncontested rebounds


6.7 rebounds per for a 7 footer is atrocious especially a starter...contested or uncontested..Some how you are convinced his 6.7 is special..I guess we will see when he plays here..My bet is he is an under performer in that category which is why I suspect is one of the reasons his playoffs minutes were limited...Tyson is a better player today...We will see..
knickscity
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8/2/2015  1:07 AM
Underrated is the new overrated. A center should get at least 10 rebounds as a starter. Could care less if they are contested or not.
nixluva
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8/2/2015  1:44 AM
holfresh wrote:6.7 rebounds per for a 7 footer is atrocious especially a starter...contested or uncontested..Some how you are convinced his 6.7 is special..I guess we will see when he plays here..My bet is he is an under performer in that category which is why I suspect is one of the reasons his playoffs minutes were limited...Tyson is a better player today...We will see..

You keep dragging that playoff thing out but it was in a down year where he was coming off a broken hand. The year before last year he was solid in the regular season and playoffs, but you want to harp on only last year. The year before when RoLo was healthy he was productive. Especially given that it's harder in the playoffs when you face stiffer competition.

Playoffs
Season Age Tm Pos G GS MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2013-14 25 POR C 11 11 33.4 3.9 8.0 .489 3.9 8.0 .489 .489 2.2 3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 0.5 1.8 1.0 3.6 10.0
2014-15 26 POR C 5 5 23.4 1.8 3.0 .600 1.8 3.0 .600 .600 1.6 1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 0.2 1.0 1.0 3.0 5.2
holfresh
Posts: 38679
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Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

8/2/2015  12:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2015  12:32 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:6.7 rebounds per for a 7 footer is atrocious especially a starter...contested or uncontested..Some how you are convinced his 6.7 is special..I guess we will see when he plays here..My bet is he is an under performer in that category which is why I suspect is one of the reasons his playoffs minutes were limited...Tyson is a better player today...We will see..

You keep dragging that playoff thing out but it was in a down year where he was coming off a broken hand. The year before last year he was solid in the regular season and playoffs, but you want to harp on only last year. The year before when RoLo was healthy he was productive. Especially given that it's harder in the playoffs when you face stiffer competition.

Playoffs
Season Age Tm Pos G GS MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2013-14 25 POR C 11 11 33.4 3.9 8.0 .489 3.9 8.0 .489 .489 2.2 3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 0.5 1.8 1.0 3.6 10.0
2014-15 26 POR C 5 5 23.4 1.8 3.0 .600 1.8 3.0 .600 .600 1.6 1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 0.2 1.0 1.0 3.0 5.2

Why didn't you post 2009/10 playoff stats??..Is it because its exactly like 2014/15..Then wouldn't that make 2013/14 seem atypical??

SEASON TEAM GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'09-'10 PHX 6 6 17.3 3.2-5.8 .543 0.0-0.0 .000 1.5-1.5 1.000 2.0 2.0 4.0 0.0 0.2 0.3 1.8 0.5 7.8
'13-'14 POR 11 11 33.4 3.9-8.0 .489 0.0-0.0 .000 2.2-3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 1.8 0.5 3.6 1.0 10.0
'14-'15 POR 5 5 23.4 1.8-3.0 .600 0.0-0.0 .000 1.6-1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 1.0 0.2 3.0 1.0 5.2



The game is changing where guys like Lopez will exploited in the playoffs...These types of centers who can't shoot or post will spend less time on the floor in the playoffs..
nixluva
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8/2/2015  1:08 PM
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:6.7 rebounds per for a 7 footer is atrocious especially a starter...contested or uncontested..Some how you are convinced his 6.7 is special..I guess we will see when he plays here..My bet is he is an under performer in that category which is why I suspect is one of the reasons his playoffs minutes were limited...Tyson is a better player today...We will see..

You keep dragging that playoff thing out but it was in a down year where he was coming off a broken hand. The year before last year he was solid in the regular season and playoffs, but you want to harp on only last year. The year before when RoLo was healthy he was productive. Especially given that it's harder in the playoffs when you face stiffer competition.

Playoffs
Season Age Tm Pos G GS MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2013-14 25 POR C 11 11 33.4 3.9 8.0 .489 3.9 8.0 .489 .489 2.2 3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 0.5 1.8 1.0 3.6 10.0
2014-15 26 POR C 5 5 23.4 1.8 3.0 .600 1.8 3.0 .600 .600 1.6 1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 0.2 1.0 1.0 3.0 5.2

Why didn't you post 2009/10 playoff stats??..Is it because its exactly like 2014/15..Then wouldn't that make 2013/14 seem atypical??

SEASON TEAM GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'09-'10 PHX 6 6 17.3 3.2-5.8 .543 0.0-0.0 .000 1.5-1.5 1.000 2.0 2.0 4.0 0.0 0.2 0.3 1.8 0.5 7.8
'13-'14 POR 11 11 33.4 3.9-8.0 .489 0.0-0.0 .000 2.2-3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 1.8 0.5 3.6 1.0 10.0
'14-'15 POR 5 5 23.4 1.8-3.0 .600 0.0-0.0 .000 1.6-1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 1.0 0.2 3.0 1.0 5.2



The game is changing where guys like Lopez will exploited in the playoffs...These types of centers who can't shoot or post will spend less time on the floor in the playoffs..

Something told me you would do some lame ish like this! No I didn't include it because it was back when he was 21 and I felt the most recent years were far more relevant. COME ON! But you go ahead and try to make case for why RoLo's 1st playoff series back when he was 21 is a better reference point. The Last season he was hurt and off his game. The previous season when he played a full season and wasn't hurt his performance was better and IMO that's worth mentioning as well as what you did in only posting his down numbers last year when he was hurt and his team had other major injuries as well. It's not just RoLo performing in a vacuum.

holfresh
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8/2/2015  1:18 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:6.7 rebounds per for a 7 footer is atrocious especially a starter...contested or uncontested..Some how you are convinced his 6.7 is special..I guess we will see when he plays here..My bet is he is an under performer in that category which is why I suspect is one of the reasons his playoffs minutes were limited...Tyson is a better player today...We will see..

You keep dragging that playoff thing out but it was in a down year where he was coming off a broken hand. The year before last year he was solid in the regular season and playoffs, but you want to harp on only last year. The year before when RoLo was healthy he was productive. Especially given that it's harder in the playoffs when you face stiffer competition.

Playoffs
Season Age Tm Pos G GS MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2013-14 25 POR C 11 11 33.4 3.9 8.0 .489 3.9 8.0 .489 .489 2.2 3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 0.5 1.8 1.0 3.6 10.0
2014-15 26 POR C 5 5 23.4 1.8 3.0 .600 1.8 3.0 .600 .600 1.6 1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 0.2 1.0 1.0 3.0 5.2

Why didn't you post 2009/10 playoff stats??..Is it because its exactly like 2014/15..Then wouldn't that make 2013/14 seem atypical??

SEASON TEAM GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'09-'10 PHX 6 6 17.3 3.2-5.8 .543 0.0-0.0 .000 1.5-1.5 1.000 2.0 2.0 4.0 0.0 0.2 0.3 1.8 0.5 7.8
'13-'14 POR 11 11 33.4 3.9-8.0 .489 0.0-0.0 .000 2.2-3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 1.8 0.5 3.6 1.0 10.0
'14-'15 POR 5 5 23.4 1.8-3.0 .600 0.0-0.0 .000 1.6-1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 1.0 0.2 3.0 1.0 5.2



The game is changing where guys like Lopez will exploited in the playoffs...These types of centers who can't shoot or post will spend less time on the floor in the playoffs..

Something told me you would do some lame ish like this! No I didn't include it because it was back when he was 21 and I felt the most recent years were far more relevant. COME ON! But you go ahead and try to make case for why RoLo's 1st playoff series back when he was 21 is a better reference point. The Last season he was hurt and off his game. The previous season when he played a full season and wasn't hurt his performance was better and IMO that's worth mentioning as well as what you did in only posting his down numbers last year when he was hurt and his team had other major injuries as well. It's not just RoLo performing in a vacuum.


I could of posted his career stats which is even worse..He avg. 5 reb per game for his career, which makes the only year you want to look at, an aberration...
nixluva
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8/2/2015  4:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2015  4:14 PM
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:6.7 rebounds per for a 7 footer is atrocious especially a starter...contested or uncontested..Some how you are convinced his 6.7 is special..I guess we will see when he plays here..My bet is he is an under performer in that category which is why I suspect is one of the reasons his playoffs minutes were limited...Tyson is a better player today...We will see..

You keep dragging that playoff thing out but it was in a down year where he was coming off a broken hand. The year before last year he was solid in the regular season and playoffs, but you want to harp on only last year. The year before when RoLo was healthy he was productive. Especially given that it's harder in the playoffs when you face stiffer competition.

Playoffs
Season Age Tm Pos G GS MP FG FGA FG% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2013-14 25 POR C 11 11 33.4 3.9 8.0 .489 3.9 8.0 .489 .489 2.2 3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 0.5 1.8 1.0 3.6 10.0
2014-15 26 POR C 5 5 23.4 1.8 3.0 .600 1.8 3.0 .600 .600 1.6 1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 0.2 1.0 1.0 3.0 5.2

Why didn't you post 2009/10 playoff stats??..Is it because its exactly like 2014/15..Then wouldn't that make 2013/14 seem atypical??

SEASON TEAM GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'09-'10 PHX 6 6 17.3 3.2-5.8 .543 0.0-0.0 .000 1.5-1.5 1.000 2.0 2.0 4.0 0.0 0.2 0.3 1.8 0.5 7.8
'13-'14 POR 11 11 33.4 3.9-8.0 .489 0.0-0.0 .000 2.2-3.3 .667 4.3 4.9 9.2 0.8 1.8 0.5 3.6 1.0 10.0
'14-'15 POR 5 5 23.4 1.8-3.0 .600 0.0-0.0 .000 1.6-1.6 1.000 1.8 2.6 4.4 0.6 1.0 0.2 3.0 1.0 5.2



The game is changing where guys like Lopez will exploited in the playoffs...These types of centers who can't shoot or post will spend less time on the floor in the playoffs..

Something told me you would do some lame ish like this! No I didn't include it because it was back when he was 21 and I felt the most recent years were far more relevant. COME ON! But you go ahead and try to make case for why RoLo's 1st playoff series back when he was 21 is a better reference point. The Last season he was hurt and off his game. The previous season when he played a full season and wasn't hurt his performance was better and IMO that's worth mentioning as well as what you did in only posting his down numbers last year when he was hurt and his team had other major injuries as well. It's not just RoLo performing in a vacuum.


I could of posted his career stats which is even worse..He avg. 5 reb per game for his career, which makes the only year you want to look at, an aberration...

I think RoLo is getting better but had a down year last year. If all you look at is the stats and don't look deeper it's easy to try and make a case that he's not a good C. You have a bias against RoLo and you seems to be trying to make him out to be a bad player.

Here is a very fair and balanced article on RoLo from a Blazers Writer.

Robin Lopez is the understated member of the Portland's starting five. We explore the ups and downs of a quiet, but consistent, season.

"What's the best job you can possibly have? It's being the weatherman in San Diego, California. It does not get any better than that. You've got a six-figure income, and you're on TV for like 30 seconds. People go, 'What's the weather like, Lew?' [Shrugs] "Nice! ... back to you."

Robin Lopez is the San Diego of the Portland Trail Blazers roster. Every single night you know what you're getting from him, for better or worse.

Need someone to clear space for drives or shots with a screen? He's your guy.
Need someone to clear space for a rebound, even for his teammate? He's your guy.
Need a big man who can make 75-80% of his free throws in the clutch? He's your guy.
Need a mascot to be put in their place? He's your guy.
Need a guy who has mastered the corner three-pointer? Can't have them all. But the Blazers have other people to do that.

Robin Lopez has quietly become Mr. Reliable for the Blazers since he arrived last season. After a rotating cast kept the position wobbly for years. he's stabilized the post, giving LaMarcus Aldridge and Damian Lillard room to do what they do best on offense. Other players can claim to be the heart or soul of the Blazers; Lopez is the strong legs that hold up the entire team.

But even the nicest, most solid guys can't provide everything. Topping 50 wins in 2 straight seasons has been great, but the NBA Playoffs have proven an insurmountable roadblock for the Blazers during Lopez's tenure. That's not all his fault, but his play has been more of an issue than a solution.

What Went Right This Year

Stability. Lopez has learned to hone his strengths, integrating them into Portland's system while playing within himself. His consistency has been remarkable. Here are Robin's numbers (per 36 minutes) for the last two seasons:

         2013-14    2014-15
Points 12.6 12.4
Rebounds 9.7 8.7
Assists 1.0 1.2
Blocks 1.9 1.8
Fouls 2.7 2.7

Lopez's drop in rebounding was covered by increased rebounding from LaMarcus Aldridge and (in particular) Damian Lillard. Robin boxed or tipped the ball, the stars collected the fruit.

Team fit. It's amazing to see how often Lopez plays background character to the more flashy Aldridge and Lillard. He understands not only what he needs to do on the court, but what he should not do.

It's really hard to imagine Portland's starting five without Lopez. Portland could look at replacing him (and will do so, if only for due diligence during his pending free agency), but it's not easy to replace a player who has blended this well.

What Went Wrong This Year

The Injury. Health was the elephant in the room when Lopez came to the Blazers in 2013. He had played 82 games for New Orleans that season, but prior to that his record read 60, 51, 67, and 64 games per year. Lopez responded to questions about his health in the best possible way. During his first season in Portland he started in all 82 regular season games plus another 12 in the postseason.

Everything seemed to be going great, until December 15th, 2014 when he broke two bones in his hand while attempting to gather a rebound against Boris Diaw. He was ruled out for 7-8 weeks and the streak of good health came to an end.

The Replacements. As Lopez headed for street clothes, Blazers fans got an unexpected surprise. Joel Freeland took over the starting center role and the team continued their run of successful play. This was good news. It was also a reminder that while Lopez is a stable force in the middle, the team actually succeeded when his backup took over. How much of Robin's success is due to his growth and how much comes from playing in a system that accentuates his strengths? This question may not be answered for years. Then again, Lopez may not play that long in a Portland uniform.

Postseason Match-Up. Sports fans tend to remember beginnings and endings most, comparatively little of the middle. For two years straight now, the last impression of Robin Lopez has not been pretty. Lopez has many strengths, but defending centers with range is not among them, due to his lack of elite athleticism. Last year Lopez ended up matched against Tim Duncan. This year he drew a first-round matchup against one of the best in the league, Marc Gasol. Lopez held his own but had little left over to give to his team. Rebounding, scoring, and minutes plummeted, opening the door for yet another potential replacement: Meyers Leonard.

Summer Improvements?

At this point, Robin Lopez is now a known quantity and an established player. His strengths are his strengths, and his weaknesses are his weaknesses. There is no questioning that he leaves his heart on the court, but there are also few questions about the totality of his on-court offerings.

Can he improve this summer? Certainly, to an extent. He can work on extending his shooting range, though he's unlikely to become a three-point marksman. He can work on small things, like outlet passes or free throws. But there are few improvements that would truly "move the needle" for Lopez.

The real question is simple. If Robin Lopez doesn't improve from here, is he enough? Or is he going to be the limiting factor in Stotts' system: Too little offense to keep defenses honest, and not athletic enough to stop the dominant centers who Portland will inevitably face in any deep playoff run?

Robin Lopez is a nice player to have as your starting center. But is "nice" enough?

Closing thoughts

Lopez came to the Blazers with question marks. They've been replaced by exclamation marks or periods. We know what he is, and we know what he isn't.

Many teams would love to have a player of Lopez' size and caliber holding down the post. If Lopez is the Blazers' biggest weakness in the starting lineup they're in great shape.

At 27 years old, Lopez is in his prime. While every NBA team dreams of an elite center bending the game to his will, those players are more rare than ever. Joel Freeland has shown himself to be capable, Meyers Leonard talented, but neither has shown the ability to stay on the court long enough (due to injuries and fouls) to take advantage of it.

If your team is loaded in other positions, having a solid, consistent center bringing the same thing to the court night after night isn't a liability. Even if he sometimes seems to disappear when they need him most (playoffs), the Blazers will miss Robin Lopez's veteran leadership and roster-solidifying defense if he doesn't return next year.

http://www.blazersedge.com/2015/5/7/8557901/robin-lopez-portland-trail-blazers-contract-free-agency
holfresh
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8/2/2015  4:16 PM
Ha..The old if you don't agree with me then you are biased trick..
nixluva
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8/2/2015  4:24 PM
holfresh wrote:Ha..The old if you don't agree with me then you are biased trick..

Did you read the article? I think it's a less bias view than you've been pushing. We all know that RoLo isn't an elite player. So you can easily pick at things but when doing that you should also have the totality of what he brings to the table and put his performance in perspective. That's what I think the writer of the article did.

holfresh
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8/2/2015  5:11 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2015  5:12 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Ha..The old if you don't agree with me then you are biased trick..

Did you read the article? I think it's a less bias view than you've been pushing. We all know that RoLo isn't an elite player. So you can easily pick at things but when doing that you should also have the totality of what he brings to the table and put his performance in perspective. That's what I think the writer of the article did.

I'm not picking at things, just one thing, rebounds...Lopez had the luxury of zero expectations in Portland, that will change here...He was the 5th option and the person what the least expectation was put upon..It will be vastly different here..He had Aldridge, Lilard, Mathews, Batum etc all ahead of him..He is paid handsomely and is behind Melo now...So all that nonsense in that article won't apply..

My views aren't biased, it looking at things realistically..If anything, you are biased because everything Knicks related has to be great...

nixluva
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8/2/2015  5:56 PM
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Ha..The old if you don't agree with me then you are biased trick..

Did you read the article? I think it's a less bias view than you've been pushing. We all know that RoLo isn't an elite player. So you can easily pick at things but when doing that you should also have the totality of what he brings to the table and put his performance in perspective. That's what I think the writer of the article did.

I'm not picking at things, just one thing, rebounds...Lopez had the luxury of zero expectations in Portland, that will change here...He was the 5th option and the person what the least expectation was put upon..It will be vastly different here..He had Aldridge, Lilard, Mathews, Batum etc all ahead of him..He is paid handsomely and is behind Melo now...So all that nonsense in that article won't apply..

My views aren't biased, it looking at things realistically..If anything, you are biased because everything Knicks related has to be great...

When did I say things were great? No need to exaggerate to make your point. The article I posted made it clear that the Blazers did benefit from RoLo's presence but at the same time he has his flaws. I think RoLo can still play even better than his best season so far. I think this could be a chance for him to grow as a player in NY in this style of play.

Here's another article from Portland Media guys that is balanced.

Today, our roundtable answers the following question(s): Robin Lopez, who was a key ingredient to Portland's success the last two seasons, hits the summer an unrestricted free agent. Should the Blazers bring him back or look at other options at center in the free agent market? If yes, what would be a good deal to retain RoLo?

Joe Freeman | @BlazerFreeman: Generally speaking, when a behemoth starting center wants to play for you and this behemoth starting center has proven to be a perfect fit, it's a no brainer: You do what you need to do to sign him to a long-term contract. And, generally speaking, this is true of Robin Lopez and the Blazers. It will take upwards of $12 million a season to bring Lopez back to Portland and I expect the Blazers to pursue him. Both sides have expressed an interest in a reunion. But, as with everything surrounding the Blazers this summer, things aren't so simple. Of all the potential moving parts on the roster, Lopez's value is perhaps most heavily connected to LaMarcus Aldridge. Lopez's unselfish demeanor and defensive-minded, team-first playing style is a perfect match alongside the four-time All-Star in the Blazers' frontcourt.

If Aldridge backs out of his pledge to re-sign with the Blazers and bolts for another city, is Lopez's value still as high? Will his skill-set and style still be the perfect fit? Does he remain the "missing link" for the franchise? These are questions President of Basketball Operations Neil Olshey will have to answer. Either way, I can guarantee you this: Olshey will look at other center options. I have said before that I think he will pursue free agent Greg Monroe. And we know Olshey has ties to DeAndre Jordan. And let's not forget how hard Olshey chased Roy Hibbert three summers ago. And, remember, coach Terry Stotts has a history with Tyson Chandler. And ... well ... you get the point. The Blazers and Lopez have had a wonderful two-year courtship. It probably will continue beyond this season. But with a wild and wacky summer of transition looming, there are certainly no guarantees.

Mike Richman | @mikegrich: Robin Lopez turned out to be exactly what the Blazers needed when they signed him two summers ago. He was -- to steal a phrase from Joe Freeman -- the missing link. He shored up the back line defensively and helped the Blazers become one of the top rebounding teams in the league. I think his most under appreciated contribution was what he has provided offensively. Without commanding many (any?) post touches, Lopez was an integral part of the Blazers offense that has ranked in the top ten in efficiency in both his seasons. He sets good screens and dives hard to the basket to pull big men away from LaMarcus Aldridge on the perimeter. He has the highest individual offensive rating (points scored per 100 possessions when he's on the court) of any player in franchise history. He's just a good fit with the scheme, with the personnel and with the city itself.

He is also in line for a serious raise. He made a little over six million last season and it's a safe bet he gets comfortably into the $10+ million a year range in his next contract. He won't be the only center on the market, Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Roy Hibbert, Tyson Chandler and Brook Lopez could all hit the market. But Robin is likely to come at a slightly cheaper price tag than those mentioned above and he has a selflessness that makes his fit alongside more spotlight and ball dominant players. If he's looking for $10-12 million, he's worth it.

Erik Gundersen | @blazerbanter: There is no doubt that when Robin Lopez came to Portland, things changed. You know the story: Lopez shows up and the Blazers starting line-up became one of the league's most feared five-man units. And yet, here we are, after an invisible playoff performance, wondering whether the Blazers should bring him back. His unselfishness and competitive fire have forged Portland's identity, in addition to the brash confidence of Matthews. Lopez is 7-feet tall and has great rim-protection stats in his favor. It's not hard to imagine him getting big money from somewhere other than Portland. Lopez had a career season in his first year in Portland. But with a hand injury in the middle of this season, he was unable to reach the same statistical heights.

More concerning than a dip in regular season production was that he was a no-show in the playoffs for the second series in a row. He didn't make much of an impact against the Spurs last season, like basically every Blazer. Then in this year's loss to the Grizzlies, he was a non-factor save for a quarter or two the whole series. For as big as the loss of Matthews was for guys like Damian Lillard, there was also a huge effect on Lopez, however subtle. Lopez and Matthews were very close and it always felt like Lopez fed off of Matthews' energy. He wasn't rebounding the ball at the same rate to close the season, a struggle which got worse in the playoffs.


http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2015/05/robin_lopez_you_be_the_gm_roundtable_2015.html
RoLo Real Plus Minus

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