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Zings, Grant, Gomez, Monroe, West, Affalo A++++++
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BigDaddyG
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6/30/2015  11:44 AM
crzymdups wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
blkexec wrote:Not sure why anybody is hating on this lineup. ...personally i see nothing wrong with that lineup. Aflalo and west are solid vets. Monroe is a decent low post center with a mid range game and a good passer for the triangle. The only problem is defense at sf.....who's guarding bron melo? West? Whis guarding Thompson?

The Greek Freak (Thanasis) can start when we play Cleveland and put him on Lebron.

I don't think Thanasis is that ready for the NBA yet. Will be interesting to see what the Knicks do with him this summer. I wouldn't be shocked if he went back to Europe for a year or two. He's raaaaaw.


I'm not sure Thanasis will make the roster if we're going off his D-League stint from last year. We have to hope that Early and Thanasis have made some strides in their game. At the very least, they can provide some hard fouls on Lebron to try and dissuade him from going to the hole.
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crzymdups
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6/30/2015  11:47 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
blkexec wrote:Not sure why anybody is hating on this lineup. ...personally i see nothing wrong with that lineup. Aflalo and west are solid vets. Monroe is a decent low post center with a mid range game and a good passer for the triangle. The only problem is defense at sf.....who's guarding bron melo? West? Whis guarding Thompson?

The Greek Freak (Thanasis) can start when we play Cleveland and put him on Lebron.

I don't think Thanasis is that ready for the NBA yet. Will be interesting to see what the Knicks do with him this summer. I wouldn't be shocked if he went back to Europe for a year or two. He's raaaaaw.


I'm not sure Thanasis will make the roster if we're going off his D-League stint from last year. We have to hope that Early and Thanasis have made some strides in their game. At the very least, they can provide some hard fouls on Lebron to try and dissuade him from going to the hole.

I hope Early and Thanasis are hard at work on their games, but I haven't heard a peep about either. I have hopes for both.

¿ △ ?
newyorker4ever
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6/30/2015  11:48 AM
Finestrg wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:At 35, there is usually rapid decline. I wouldn't want West for more than 2 yrs, 6 mil, though he'd probably be insulted if we offered that.
I agree with Yellowboy that overpaying West and Afflalo would negate the positives from the draft.

Yeah, I'm with you guys on this--not interested in either guy really. I think there are much better buys out there.

Well of course there's better buys out there but can the Knicks get those other buys is the question??

gunsnewing
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6/30/2015  11:54 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:At 35, there is usually rapid decline. I wouldn't want West for more than 2 yrs, 6 mil, though he'd probably be insulted if we offered that.
I agree with Yellowboy that overpaying West and Afflalo would negate the positives from the draft.

So LJ & Oakley were worthless at $35? And only worth $3mil per a piece? Guys like KG & Pierce etc...

West is due to make $12+ mil if he comes here for $5.5mil consider it a huge steal and a bargain. He's got minimally another 2-3yrs of being an effective rotational player. In the meantime he will be The default leader on this team. Remember we have desperately lacked leadership since Kidd, Rasheed & Kurt retired. You don't seem to understand the value of a player like West. I'm surprised Bonn because you are usually a guy who can look past points per game stats and notice impact.

We paid Jason Kidd only $3m per at the time and people still complained. I would you have not signed Kidd that year for anything over he LLE $1.3mil per? No right?

It's a long shot he takes $7mil a year less to come here but if he does Knick fans better celebrate and appreciate

We're talking probabilities. So of course there are exceptions. Unless you have a crystal ball, you can only play the odds as effectively as possible. For example, that means not smoking even though there are some smokers who live to an old age.
Most players statistically peak at around 25 but don't have a rapid decline until 32. Sure, in every day life you're young if you're 30 or even 35 but that is VERY old in NBA terms. I'm even skeptical about giving 4 year contracts to guys who are over 26 but I think you'd have to in a few cases.
You can see an analysis using the wins produced statistic here: http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
And win shares here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2953
It's rare that two different metrics will produce a consensus at the exact same answer, but they did here and that has to increase confidence in their conclusions.

We are not talking about maxing a guy like West out. He is not 25 and looking for the full 5yrs $130mil max. He is 35 and looking for his final contract for 2-4yrs. He can hang it up at any time like Like Kidd did and not hurt the Knicks. Zings will be able to step right in by then after having sat and learned from David West. Y

You do see the importance of West to that young Indiana team right?

Players prime years are 25-28 I would say but the dog orang drop doesn't come until 32-33 for most. The greats are just as effective until 37-38. Jordan, Kobe, KG, Duncan etc.
I don't agree that after 26 you are done

gunsnewing
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6/30/2015  11:55 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
blkexec wrote:Not sure why anybody is hating on this lineup. ...personally i see nothing wrong with that lineup. Aflalo and west are solid vets. Monroe is a decent low post center with a mid range game and a good passer for the triangle. The only problem is defense at sf.....who's guarding bron melo? West? Whis guarding Thompson?

The Greek Freak (Thanasis) can start when we play Cleveland and put him on Lebron.

I don't think Thanasis is that ready for the NBA yet. Will be interesting to see what the Knicks do with him this summer. I wouldn't be shocked if he went back to Europe for a year or two. He's raaaaaw.


I'm not sure Thanasis will make the roster if we're going off his D-League stint from last year. We have to hope that Early and Thanasis have made some strides in their game. At the very least, they can provide some hard fouls on Lebron to try and dissuade him from going to the hole.

I forgot about Early. I was down on him all year last year but he did come on very late in he year. He can be an invaluable piece as Melo's backup absolutely.

Bonn1997
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6/30/2015  11:58 AM
gunsnewing wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:At 35, there is usually rapid decline. I wouldn't want West for more than 2 yrs, 6 mil, though he'd probably be insulted if we offered that.
I agree with Yellowboy that overpaying West and Afflalo would negate the positives from the draft.

So LJ & Oakley were worthless at $35? And only worth $3mil per a piece? Guys like KG & Pierce etc...

West is due to make $12+ mil if he comes here for $5.5mil consider it a huge steal and a bargain. He's got minimally another 2-3yrs of being an effective rotational player. In the meantime he will be The default leader on this team. Remember we have desperately lacked leadership since Kidd, Rasheed & Kurt retired. You don't seem to understand the value of a player like West. I'm surprised Bonn because you are usually a guy who can look past points per game stats and notice impact.

We paid Jason Kidd only $3m per at the time and people still complained. I would you have not signed Kidd that year for anything over he LLE $1.3mil per? No right?

It's a long shot he takes $7mil a year less to come here but if he does Knick fans better celebrate and appreciate

We're talking probabilities. So of course there are exceptions. Unless you have a crystal ball, you can only play the odds as effectively as possible. For example, that means not smoking even though there are some smokers who live to an old age.
Most players statistically peak at around 25 but don't have a rapid decline until 32. Sure, in every day life you're young if you're 30 or even 35 but that is VERY old in NBA terms. I'm even skeptical about giving 4 year contracts to guys who are over 26 but I think you'd have to in a few cases.
You can see an analysis using the wins produced statistic here: http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
And win shares here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2953
It's rare that two different metrics will produce a consensus at the exact same answer, but they did here and that has to increase confidence in their conclusions.

We are not talking about maxing a guy like West out. He is not 25 and looking for the full 5yrs $130mil max. He is 35 and looking for his final contract for 2-4yrs. He can hang it up at any time like Like Kidd did and not hurt the Knicks. Zings will be able to step right in by then after having sat and learned from David West. Y

You do see the importance of West to that young Indiana team right?

Players prime years are 25-28 I would say but the dog orang drop doesn't come until 32-33 for most. The greats are just as effective until 37-38. Jordan, Kobe, KG, Duncan etc.
I don't agree that after 26 you are done


Neither do I.
I want Phil to make smart gambles though and for reasons already stated don't think more than 2 years, 6 mil would be smart for West.
H1AND1
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6/30/2015  11:58 AM
dwiley20 wrote:We need A SG who can create for the team...our SG should be explosive.....n no player on our roster fits that. We need Monte Ellis

No thanks to Ellis. Chucker and horrible 3 point shooter. No way.

H1AND1
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6/30/2015  11:58 AM
martin wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:So who you want at SG? Or are you ok with Galloway and Svhed? IMO Affalo when right will be more impactful night in night out than both those guys. You need an excellent bench and that bench and rotation will be one of the if not the best in the league. Melo needs to stay fresh.

IMO David West's impact on teaching this team how to be professional and prepare themselves mentally and physically to give it their all and reach their full potential as he did with the youngsters in Indiana is undeniably invaluable.

He will play he role of LJ & Oakley which this young team desperately needs if they want to reach their full potential. How are you going to do better thaN David West for the full MLE? He is the PERFECT stop gap. I really believe Zings will reach his full potential learning from David West. Same way hibbert, Stephenson, George & Hill did. He will push every single player on this this team to give max effort 100% of the time. He might even get Melo to play harder which would be worth it's wait in gold. All the same things LJ, Oakley & Ewing did for guys like Ward, Childs, Camby and H20. Without West this is a young team of pieces thrown together who will have to go through a few years of growing pains and maybe never reach its full potential of the playoffs for that matter. With West, the glue, development time will be sped up like it was in Indiana. Zings, Monroe & Grant will reach their highest potential. There would be no doubt in my mind. The Knicks would truly finally be back

Do you think that West will opt out of $12M to sign for full MLE?

The Knicks dont have a MLE they are under the cap

H1AND1
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6/30/2015  12:00 PM
Id much rather target Carroll than Afflalo or West.
Bonn1997
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6/30/2015  12:03 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/30/2015  12:03 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:At 35, there is usually rapid decline. I wouldn't want West for more than 2 yrs, 6 mil, though he'd probably be insulted if we offered that.
I agree with Yellowboy that overpaying West and Afflalo would negate the positives from the draft.

So LJ & Oakley were worthless at $35? And only worth $3mil per a piece? Guys like KG & Pierce etc...

West is due to make $12+ mil if he comes here for $5.5mil consider it a huge steal and a bargain. He's got minimally another 2-3yrs of being an effective rotational player. In the meantime he will be The default leader on this team. Remember we have desperately lacked leadership since Kidd, Rasheed & Kurt retired. You don't seem to understand the value of a player like West. I'm surprised Bonn because you are usually a guy who can look past points per game stats and notice impact.

We paid Jason Kidd only $3m per at the time and people still complained. I would you have not signed Kidd that year for anything over he LLE $1.3mil per? No right?

It's a long shot he takes $7mil a year less to come here but if he does Knick fans better celebrate and appreciate

We're talking probabilities. So of course there are exceptions. Unless you have a crystal ball, you can only play the odds as effectively as possible. For example, that means not smoking even though there are some smokers who live to an old age.
Most players statistically peak at around 25 but don't have a rapid decline until 32. Sure, in every day life you're young if you're 30 or even 35 but that is VERY old in NBA terms. I'm even skeptical about giving 4 year contracts to guys who are over 26 but I think you'd have to in a few cases.
You can see an analysis using the wins produced statistic here: http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
And win shares here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2953
It's rare that two different metrics will produce a consensus at the exact same answer, but they did here and that has to increase confidence in their conclusions.

We are not talking about maxing a guy like West out. He is not 25 and looking for the full 5yrs $130mil max. He is 35 and looking for his final contract for 2-4yrs. He can hang it up at any time like Like Kidd did and not hurt the Knicks. Zings will be able to step right in by then after having sat and learned from David West. Y

You do see the importance of West to that young Indiana team right?

Players prime years are 25-28 I would say but the dog orang drop doesn't come until 32-33 for most. The greats are just as effective until 37-38. Jordan, Kobe, KG, Duncan etc.
I don't agree that after 26 you are done


Neither do I.
I want Phil to make smart gambles though and for reasons already stated don't think more than 2 years, 6 mil would be smart for West.

And for the record, Jordan, Kobe, and Oakley had major statistical declines around age 34. KG and Duncan are just exceptions.
You have to look at trends not individual cases if you want to play the odds right though. You'll always find a smoker who lives to a long age or a health nut who dies early.
VCoug
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6/30/2015  12:16 PM
Everyone's talking about the MLE but we don't have it because we'll be under the cap. The only exception we could have is the room exception which is something like $2M. The MLE and the TPEs will all be gone tomorrow when we go under the cap.
Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
yellowboy90
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6/30/2015  12:20 PM
VCoug wrote:Everyone's talking about the MLE but we don't have it because we'll be under the cap. The only exception we could have is the room exception which is something like $2M. The MLE and the TPEs will all be gone tomorrow when we go under the cap.

I have seen numbers for the room exception for $2.7 - 2.87m.

Uptown
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6/30/2015  12:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/30/2015  12:31 PM
We need to be realistic when thnking about free agent targets. Cant see Carroll leaving the 1st place team in the east to join the last place team in east. A 17 win team is not attractive to top Free Agents who want money and the ability to contend. Our best selling point is playing time and perhaps we can over pay a player more than he might get elsewhere. We also need to look for unique angles like coming back home. Etc..

A few Guys who are still young and are looking for minutes and money that we can target are:

Aminu (young, looking for minutes)
Lou Williams (looking to start?)
Afflalo (may have to over pay)
Wes Matthews (coming off an injury, perhaps we overpay for him since his market value may be low)
Robin Lopez (Perhaps we can sell him on being in same town as his twin)
Danny Green (comming back home)

This is off the top of my head...but these are the type of free agents may have a shot at considering our losing situation.

Bonn1997
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6/30/2015  12:33 PM
Overpaying because you're a bad team is a good way to make sure you stay bad. We need smart deals. If they're small deals and we gradually improve and become a little more attractive to FAs each year, that's better than overpaying and being bad long-term.
crzymdups
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6/30/2015  12:34 PM
VCoug wrote:Everyone's talking about the MLE but we don't have it because we'll be under the cap. The only exception we could have is the room exception which is something like $2M. The MLE and the TPEs will all be gone tomorrow when we go under the cap.

We get the mid-level once we use up the cap room. The Heat did it in 2010 - they signed Mike Miller to the MLE after signing their big fish.

¿ △ ?
meloanyk
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6/30/2015  12:34 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
martin wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:So who you want at SG? Or are you ok with Galloway and Svhed? IMO Affalo when right will be more impactful night in night out than both those guys. You need an excellent bench and that bench and rotation will be one of the if not the best in the league. Melo needs to stay fresh.

IMO David West's impact on teaching this team how to be professional and prepare themselves mentally and physically to give it their all and reach their full potential as he did with the youngsters in Indiana is undeniably invaluable.

He will play he role of LJ & Oakley which this young team desperately needs if they want to reach their full potential. How are you going to do better thaN David West for the full MLE? He is the PERFECT stop gap. I really believe Zings will reach his full potential learning from David West. Same way hibbert, Stephenson, George & Hill did. He will push every single player on this this team to give max effort 100% of the time. He might even get Melo to play harder which would be worth it's wait in gold. All the same things LJ, Oakley & Ewing did for guys like Ward, Childs, Camby and H20. Without West this is a young team of pieces thrown together who will have to go through a few years of growing pains and maybe never reach its full potential of the playoffs for that matter. With West, the glue, development time will be sped up like it was in Indiana. Zings, Monroe & Grant will reach their highest potential. There would be no doubt in my mind. The Knicks would truly finally be back

Do you think that West will opt out of $12M to sign for full MLE?

I actually think this is somewhat possible. He was miserable in Indiana. If he gets the full 4yr MLE - 4yr $28M or so, with the expectation that he'd be more of a coach from the bench in the last two years of the deal...

Though the word is he wants to go to a team where he can compete for a title. I think he'll have more compelling options.

I sort of think Dallas might be where he lands - I think Dallas will whiff on DeAndre and LMA.


Anyone know what the full MLE is worth this year?
Think mle is $5.4 . 2 years for total of $14 to come hoome might work for West As far as Affalo, he isnt be my first choice but he is certainly an upgrade with D and 3pt shooting but 3/$24 would be max Id offer. This 36-38 being floated is absurd imo. Harris intrigues even near max
meloanyk
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6/30/2015  12:36 PM
crzymdups wrote:This free agency predictions article has the Knicks signing Monroe, Afflalo and West at the estimated amounts of:

Monroe 2yr $30M
Afflalo 4yr $44M
West 2yr $12M

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/6/30/8868203/nba-free-agency-predictions-kevin-love-lamarcus-aldridge

Too much, too long for Affalo. Be happy with the other two signs
Bonn1997
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6/30/2015  12:38 PM
meloanyk wrote:
crzymdups wrote:This free agency predictions article has the Knicks signing Monroe, Afflalo and West at the estimated amounts of:

Monroe 2yr $30M
Afflalo 4yr $44M
West 2yr $12M

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/6/30/8868203/nba-free-agency-predictions-kevin-love-lamarcus-aldridge

Too much, too long for Affalo. Be happy with the other two signs

I'd give the Monroe signing an A, Afflalo an F-, and West a C.
meloanyk
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6/30/2015  12:41 PM
crzymdups wrote:This free agency predictions article has the Knicks signing Monroe, Afflalo and West at the estimated amounts of:

Monroe 2yr $30M
Afflalo 4yr $44M
West 2yr $12M

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/6/30/8868203/nba-free-agency-predictions-kevin-love-lamarcus-aldridge

For 4/$40 I would sign an up and comer in 22 y/o Harris. Think he gets more though
Uptown
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6/30/2015  12:45 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/30/2015  12:47 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Overpaying because you're a bad team is a good way to make sure you stay bad. We need smart deals. If they're small deals and we gradually improve and become a little more attractive to FAs each year, that's better than overpaying and being bad long-term.

Not endorsing it, its just an obvious option when you are the losing team and you are vying for the services of a top flight free agent and you are competing against a winning team. With the salary cap explosion, i think most of these FA are looking for 2 yr deals with an opt out anyway...with that said, i wouldnt over pay for Afflalo, etc....but again, in our situation, its an option...not a good one though, i agree...

Zings, Grant, Gomez, Monroe, West, Affalo A++++++

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