BRIGGS wrote:The upside of drafting Mudiay is that he would be THE hedge against the inevitable fall of both melo and Jackson. I have so little confidence in this organization that it's always about today with incredible short sighted ness. Of course there is a balance in retooling rebuilding and at the core you try go win games. I'm high on Kaminsky for the triangle if that is the goal. There is NO other player available 4 better for the triangle than Frank. If we take a look at what might be the best for the Knicks in the long run the answer might be Mudiay. Mudiay is a pure 1 I watched as much film as there is on him today nd I saw significant difference in his play vs what he is compared to Tyreke Evans. Mudiay is a better pure pg than Russell even if people think Russell is a better passer there is a difference. Mudiay is built to play up tempo he is not a premium player for the triangle he does not shoot well yet and he needs the ball in his hands a lot to make plays. In some ways I felt I was watching a small magic Johnson a guy who can run Showtime. His innate point guard skills and high iq are evident he's a better pg than Russell and I have no doubt about that. The people making decisions don't give a sht about the future passed 24 months. Who knows if this team has already committed this pick to a trade-- that is how the knicks are run. But for the longer term knicks fans you know the guys who care about the knicks-- not melo Jackson even dolan--I mean the fan-- not neccesarily the 80k a year ticket holder but the millions of fans who follow the team as. part of their exsistence--then take Mudiay and don't look back. This stupid stuff about Porzinigis he's got an ectomorphic body type he's going to get hurt within his first 5 years and it will all be downhill. Justice Winslow is NOT d wade. D wade had significant playmaking ability at Marquette and also owned the best b line drive in nba history Winslow not close. It is possible that Winslow could turn into a version of harden-- that is possible but it's not a given. It's.a given that Mudiay will be able to run the club very well cor 12 -14 years-- and that is the best value. Can the Knicks pick up his running mate from high school Jordan Mickey as well?It would make a ton of sense he's the most under rated player in the draft and gives him a natural athletic running mate.

I can understand your dismay with the Knicks brass, but I would say that you have to take into consideration that all the talk they're doing so openly is for a purpose and not necessarily an indication that they don't care about the future. Just keep this in mind.

1. This is the same team that has gone to the trouble of making a farm team that runs the same system as the big team, with the purpose of player development.

2. The same team that has stashed a Euro Big they had no intention of bringing over this season.

3. The same team that has been restocking draft picks, despite the fact that they weren't able to grab any 1st rd picks just yet, it's evident that they are conscious of the need.

4. The same team that has actually brought in a lot more young players since taking over. We have a lot of young players and more on the way.

The idea is not to have a team full of kids. Phil is intent on having a mix of vets and kids. He's said that over and over. Free Agency is for the vets this team will need in order to compete, but at the same time there will be kids developing behind them. Phil has repeatedly said he wants to protect the teams future and wants a future component to the team. I think the trade talk is just doing his due diligence and seeing if some team gets desperate and makes an insane offer.

smackeddog wrote:Getting the BRIGGS seal of approval gives me a bit more confidence in Mudiay. I like Winslow a lot, but his upside is solid-good starter, where as Mudiay has maybe all star potential. I still think the 76ers draft him.

In the modern game, successful teams do not typically build around point guards, they build around pivots and wings.

Briggs and I both see point guard at different points of the positional value spectrum. I contend that point guard has the lowest positional value in the league, and that is reflected in how often they are moved, traded and disposed of and how often they are replaced by players found all over the draft board. Briggs has said before that this movement should be seen as proof of life of how they have the most value.

Well Briggs is wrong. I suppose I'm supposed to be politically correct and say something moderate about it all, but Briggs is plainly wrong. The Briggs construction of a team would create a Knicks team that would score 130 points every third night and give up 160 points each and every night. What about the other two out of three nights? Those would be the nights that the Knicks, dependent on offense, won't have their shots falling and get massacred 140 to 90.

You need defense to win championships. You need rim protection. You build teams from the middle outward. This is a basic truism in all sports, not just basketball. What's valued in baseball? A strong defensive shortstop, a rangy centerfielder, a strong pitching core and a catcher who can manage a staff. What's valued in football? A strong QB1, a defensive tackle or nose tackle who can set the tone and control the line of scrimmage at the point of attack.

It's very difficult to find a high level center prospect in the NBA anywhere else besides the top end of the draft. It's difficult to find a wing prospect with an elite high end tools ceiling except at the top end of the draft. You can find point guards anywhere on the draft board.

Melo has shown he doesn't move well off the ball. He's a lethal 1 vs 1 isolation gunner. He's not suited without the ball in his hands and he's not suited to run a two man game with an elite point guard. Mundiay isn't going to move the needle with Melo on the roster. Someone who can defend the rim and space the floor will.

Taking Mundiay makes sense if he was three heads and shoulders above the players around his tier. He is not.

Pivots and wings are what matter.

TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Getting the BRIGGS seal of approval gives me a bit more confidence in Mudiay. I like Winslow a lot, but his upside is solid-good starter, where as Mudiay has maybe all star potential. I still think the 76ers draft him.

In the modern game, successful teams do not typically build around point guards, they build around pivots and wings.

Briggs and I both see point guard at different points of the positional value spectrum. I contend that point guard has the lowest positional value in the league, and that is reflected in how often they are moved, traded and disposed of and how often they are replaced by players found all over the draft board. Briggs has said before that this movement should be seen as proof of life of how they have the most value.

Well Briggs is wrong. I suppose I'm supposed to be politically correct and say something moderate about it all, but Briggs is plainly wrong. The Briggs construction of a team would create a Knicks team that would score 130 points every third night and give up 160 points each and every night. What about the other two out of three nights? Those would be the nights that the Knicks, dependent on offense, won't have their shots falling and get massacred 140 to 90.

You need defense to win championships. You need rim protection. You build teams from the middle outward. This is a basic truism in all sports, not just basketball. What's valued in baseball? A strong defensive shortstop, a rangy centerfielder, a strong pitching core and a catcher who can manage a staff. What's valued in football? A strong QB1, a defensive tackle or nose tackle who can set the tone and control the line of scrimmage at the point of attack.

It's very difficult to find a high level center prospect in the NBA anywhere else besides the top end of the draft. It's difficult to find a wing prospect with an elite high end tools ceiling except at the top end of the draft. You can find point guards anywhere on the draft board.

Melo has shown he doesn't move well off the ball. He's a lethal 1 vs 1 isolation gunner. He's not suited without the ball in his hands and he's not suited to run a two man game with an elite point guard. Mundiay isn't going to move the needle with Melo on the roster. Someone who can defend the rim and space the floor will.

Taking Mundiay makes sense if he was three heads and shoulders above the players around his tier. He is not.

Pivots and wings are what matter.

Triple Threat--taking Mudiay and acquiring Mickey might be the best defensive move by any team in the NBA in the draft.

Notice the two players I said in the draft beyond the pick Jordan Mickey 6-8 240 Josh Richardson 6-6 210 capable of playing PG(thats where I would put ahim as the third PG). Both are elite defenders who play into the faster model of the nBA. If anyone cares to watch some Mudiay videos today--you will catch Mickey--he was on the same team in Texas as Emmanuel. Also Mudiay is nearly 6-5 200 pounds with long arms. If there is something you do notice is that he gets into passing lanes and is physical on his man. So no I always think about the balance of defense and if you know the players Im talking about--then you will get where I came from. I could easily say you're interest in Noah who you said was your number 1 guy for the Knicks is more than just a tad off. Why would the kNicks want Noah who looked all but washed up his last series who is easily on the other side of his playing career who's offense has become worse over time? And then the compensation part--exactly how much would we have to give up for this aging man--you know as well as I that he would cost atleast a future low restricted #1 pick and he is NOT worth that right now--no the KNicks dont need Noah--they need Mickey who is a 20 year old turbo version of Taj Gibson if they are going to use an asset for acquisition.

TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Getting the BRIGGS seal of approval gives me a bit more confidence in Mudiay. I like Winslow a lot, but his upside is solid-good starter, where as Mudiay has maybe all star potential. I still think the 76ers draft him.

In the modern game, successful teams do not typically build around point guards, they build around pivots and wings.

Briggs and I both see point guard at different points of the positional value spectrum. I contend that point guard has the lowest positional value in the league, and that is reflected in how often they are moved, traded and disposed of and how often they are replaced by players found all over the draft board. Briggs has said before that this movement should be seen as proof of life of how they have the most value.

Well Briggs is wrong. I suppose I'm supposed to be politically correct and say something moderate about it all, but Briggs is plainly wrong. The Briggs construction of a team would create a Knicks team that would score 130 points every third night and give up 160 points each and every night. What about the other two out of three nights? Those would be the nights that the Knicks, dependent on offense, won't have their shots falling and get massacred 140 to 90.

You need defense to win championships. You need rim protection. You build teams from the middle outward. This is a basic truism in all sports, not just basketball. What's valued in baseball? A strong defensive shortstop, a rangy centerfielder, a strong pitching core and a catcher who can manage a staff. What's valued in football? A strong QB1, a defensive tackle or nose tackle who can set the tone and control the line of scrimmage at the point of attack.

It's very difficult to find a high level center prospect in the NBA anywhere else besides the top end of the draft. It's difficult to find a wing prospect with an elite high end tools ceiling except at the top end of the draft. You can find point guards anywhere on the draft board.

Melo has shown he doesn't move well off the ball. He's a lethal 1 vs 1 isolation gunner. He's not suited without the ball in his hands and he's not suited to run a two man game with an elite point guard. Mundiay isn't going to move the needle with Melo on the roster. Someone who can defend the rim and space the floor will.

Taking Mundiay makes sense if he was three heads and shoulders above the players around his tier. He is not.

Pivots and wings are what matter.

It ultimately comes down to the "balance" on your team and how your players mesh.

…And yeah, it also matters who is available for you to get, whether by trade, free agency, or draft.

If you follow Briggs, you should know that he loves big men, and is always looking for a "sleeping giant," so to speak. Maybe he and others just don't feel there is a worthy big man at #4, or that a guy like Mudiay is simply better.

I did a thread on the 7'1" Porzingis recently because I feel he should be considered and evaluated by folks who tend to overlook Europeans because they're not easily available to watch on TV. He's still a "colt" in terms of physical development, but by all accounts he has as much upside as anyone in this draft.

If Porzingis blows the Knicks away, I would hope that the Phil would have the balls to take him, but the same is true for Mudiay, Russell, Kaminsky, and to a lesser extent Winslow and maybe even Mario H.

Knicks have a lot of holes to fill, and you even have the flexibility to move Anthony to PF if the right SF is available in the draft. You also have to consider the Triangle, whether or not you like its conceptual framework. Phil pretty much let folks know that he was looking for a big man, but it would seem that the BB gods have taken away, to a great extent, our ability to control our own destiny in terms of choosing the player we really want.

Maybe Mudiay/Russell are the best players to take if they are available at 4. I would make the case for giving Porzingis serious consideration if he really impresses in our workout with him, and I would be willing to "reach" for Kaminsky if he comes in and shines.

But who knows what we will see during the workouts, and maybe an offer comes up where we can trade our pick, pick up a young vet, and drop down a few slots to where we can still get a good player in a pretty good draft class.

Russell is better fit for the triangle. Russell will never be on Mudiay's level as far as defense. He will never be on Steph Curry's level as far as offense. But he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be affective. So I see Russell as a perfect SG for Phils triangle. To be successful in this system, you have to be able to shoot, pass and play off the ball. Thats Russells game. Thats not Mudiay's game.

The only way Mudiay is picked, is if Phil thinks he's the next Kobe or MJ, as far as his impact on the game. Otherwise, Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle. The triangle is perfect for players who can't create their own shot, and has IQ to make the right pass, or simply make the right play. To me, the triangle will restrict Mudiay's impact similar to what it did with JR Smith. Mudiay is an instinctful player who needs the ball in his hands to be affective. Perfect for the sixers. We will not see the impact of Mudiay's game until Phil and Melo are gone.

The sixers will act like they are picking Russell, just to see who will overpay for him in a trade. Someone like the knicks, who might want to swop picks 3 and 4. Since we are giving away tallent already, I can see Phil doing a lopsided trade with the sixers. But I would call their bluff, because I think they are picking Mudiay anyway. He's NBA ready while Russell is just a cute SG with PG passing skills and limited defensive skills or athleticism. Mudiay with some NBA strength training, might be in the dunk contest in a few years. He has that kind of potential....triple double type player.

Knicks win with either pick.....Mudiay or Russell. Lets just hope we are not passing on a potential all star in Winslow, WCS or the 7ft Euro guy (sleeper).

blkexec wrote:Mudiay is perfect for the sixers. And his games fits. He's able to be that trible double guy, since he will play a rusell westbrook role. And he's said this himself that he prefers sixers offense, since they will be up and down....pick and roll. Plus he's long enough to cause problems on most PG's.

Russell is better fit for the triangle. Russell will never be on Mudiay's level as far as defense. He will never be on Steph Curry's level as far as offense. But he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be affective. So I see Russell as a perfect SG for Phils triangle. To be successful in this system, you have to be able to shoot, pass and play off the ball. Thats Russells game. Thats not Mudiay's game.

The only way Mudiay is picked, is if Phil thinks he's the next Kobe or MJ, as far as his impact on the game. Otherwise, Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle. The triangle is perfect for players who can't create their own shot, and has IQ to make the right pass, or simply make the right play. To me, the triangle will restrict Mudiay's impact similar to what it did with JR Smith. Mudiay is an instinctful player who needs the ball in his hands to be affective. Perfect for the sixers. We will not see the impact of Mudiay's game until Phil and Melo are gone.

The sixers will act like they are picking Russell, just to see who will overpay for him in a trade. Someone like the knicks, who might want to swop picks 3 and 4. Since we are giving away tallent already, I can see Phil doing a lopsided trade with the sixers. But I would call their bluff, because I think they are picking Mudiay anyway. He's NBA ready while Russell is just a cute SG with PG passing skills and limited defensive skills or athleticism. Mudiay with some NBA strength training, might be in the dunk contest in a few years. He has that kind of potential....triple double type player.

Knicks win with either pick.....Mudiay or Russell. Lets just hope we are not passing on a potential all star in Winslow, WCS or the 7ft Euro guy (sleeper).

Agree with crzy also... Mudiay is a building blow. WCS, Kaminsky.. these guys are pieces, role players. Winslow is a wildcard to me, and I think his offense can improve. Will see...

crzymdups wrote:I could see the Sixers taking Mudiay over Russell.

Look, if Mudiay is there at four, the Knicks have to take him.

It's a four player draft as far as the Knicks are concerned. Don't try to get clever or fancy.

Word. Let's keep this simple and take the BPA.

blkexec wrote:Mudiay is perfect for the sixers. And his games fits. He's able to be that trible double guy, since he will play a rusell westbrook role. And he's said this himself that he prefers sixers offense, since they will be up and down....pick and roll. Plus he's long enough to cause problems on most PG's.

Russell is better fit for the triangle. Russell will never be on Mudiay's level as far as defense. He will never be on Steph Curry's level as far as offense. But he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be affective. So I see Russell as a perfect SG for Phils triangle. To be successful in this system, you have to be able to shoot, pass and play off the ball. Thats Russells game. Thats not Mudiay's game.

The only way Mudiay is picked, is if Phil thinks he's the next Kobe or MJ, as far as his impact on the game. Otherwise, Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle. The triangle is perfect for players who can't create their own shot, and has IQ to make the right pass, or simply make the right play. To me, the triangle will restrict Mudiay's impact similar to what it did with JR Smith. Mudiay is an instinctful player who needs the ball in his hands to be affective. Perfect for the sixers. We will not see the impact of Mudiay's game until Phil and Melo are gone.

The sixers will act like they are picking Russell, just to see who will overpay for him in a trade. Someone like the knicks, who might want to swop picks 3 and 4. Since we are giving away tallent already, I can see Phil doing a lopsided trade with the sixers. But I would call their bluff, because I think they are picking Mudiay anyway. He's NBA ready while Russell is just a cute SG with PG passing skills and limited defensive skills or athleticism. Mudiay with some NBA strength training, might be in the dunk contest in a few years. He has that kind of potential....triple double type player.

Knicks win with either pick.....Mudiay or Russell. Lets just hope we are not passing on a potential all star in Winslow, WCS or the 7ft Euro guy (sleeper).

Mudiay is about to get the mreinman seal of approval too! This from the Philly article:

2. He’s an analytics guy!
Oh my God, Hinkie must love this kid!
Here is Lukas Peng, a scout in China on Mudiay via Nurse’s article.
“It’s very rare in China to see someone consciously look for highly-efficient analytical offensive situations – corner three-point shooters, rim attacks and dives, and even finding the open man in their best scoring position in transition like Mudiay does.”

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:Mudiay is perfect for the sixers. And his games fits. He's able to be that trible double guy, since he will play a rusell westbrook role. And he's said this himself that he prefers sixers offense, since they will be up and down....pick and roll. Plus he's long enough to cause problems on most PG's.

Russell is better fit for the triangle. Russell will never be on Mudiay's level as far as defense. He will never be on Steph Curry's level as far as offense. But he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be affective. So I see Russell as a perfect SG for Phils triangle. To be successful in this system, you have to be able to shoot, pass and play off the ball. Thats Russells game. Thats not Mudiay's game.

The only way Mudiay is picked, is if Phil thinks he's the next Kobe or MJ, as far as his impact on the game. Otherwise, Mudiay is not a fit for the triangle. The triangle is perfect for players who can't create their own shot, and has IQ to make the right pass, or simply make the right play. To me, the triangle will restrict Mudiay's impact similar to what it did with JR Smith. Mudiay is an instinctful player who needs the ball in his hands to be affective. Perfect for the sixers. We will not see the impact of Mudiay's game until Phil and Melo are gone.

The sixers will act like they are picking Russell, just to see who will overpay for him in a trade. Someone like the knicks, who might want to swop picks 3 and 4. Since we are giving away tallent already, I can see Phil doing a lopsided trade with the sixers. But I would call their bluff, because I think they are picking Mudiay anyway. He's NBA ready while Russell is just a cute SG with PG passing skills and limited defensive skills or athleticism. Mudiay with some NBA strength training, might be in the dunk contest in a few years. He has that kind of potential....triple double type player.

Knicks win with either pick.....Mudiay or Russell. Lets just hope we are not passing on a potential all star in Winslow, WCS or the 7ft Euro guy (sleeper).

I have to say that I do agree that Russell is a more pure fit for the Triangle but that Mudiay is also capable of filling a role in this system. There's this assumption that you can't have a guard who can use his ball skills in this offense and really that's not exactly true. I've been saying this over and over to very little impact but Phil hand picked Shved for his belief that he could be good in Pushing the ball and also playing the very active role as the wing in the Pinch Post. Phil was right!!!

Shved filled that role perfectly. This is exactly where Mudiay would play. Mudiay isn't going to be in the Fisher role, where he passes and cuts to the corner. Mudiay due to his size and driving ability will be on the other side. The weak side 2 ma game. In the Pinch Post Mudiay will have the space to drive and get to the basket in the same way that Shved was able to do. When you watch Shved highlights you are watching a very specific role in the offense. JR couldn't figure it out but Russell or Mudiay should be like a fish in water in this role. It's the Scoring Combo Guard role.

Now we've all had time to cool down- is Shved actually any good? Or did we fool ourselves due to how comparatively awful the rest of the team were? I only ask because to me if we draft Mudiay, then Shved will likely walk. If Shved is starter material, then maybe it makes more sense to go with Winslow or WCS.