blkexec wrote:My problem with Mudiay is not him......its the knick lack of player development due to the coach....the fans.....and the history.

Knick fans arent patient enough for this pick.

Fisher is not a player development coach.

If we draft Mudiay....he will be injury prone because he will try and do too much due to fan and media pressure. This is not the right environment for Mudiay to reach his potential. The ball will be in Melos hand. He will be the first guy down the floor like shump used to do....just to pull up and wait for others. He will shine in Philly because its a free flowing offense that doesnt require thinking. Mudiay is the better tallent...i agree. But Winslow is the better pick. With any other team....Mudiay is the right pick. Look what happened to all the young dynamic guards we drafted. This is not a culture for rookies with flaws and a game thats not mature yet.

The knicks are like erotion soil. Thats why vets are the only plants to survive. Mudiay will look like shump with us....and Jason Kidd on any other team. The sad and honest truth. Real knick fans that understand please stand up. Mudiay will look like a superstar after his contract is up and hes on a another team. History tells us how this story will end. We need picks with mature game that are glue or system guys like Winslow.....Someone who going to shine right out the gate. Our daycare center has been terrible for over 20 years. No patiences for Mudiay here. I wish i was wrong...but we have to be honest with ourselves.

I am weary of letting Knick history dictate how we move forward. It's over 40 years of futility...time to take a "new" direction. Best player available is who we draft, not cultural or system fit.

Mudiay will likely be the BPA @ number 4. We pick Mudiay.

blkexec wrote:

knickscity wrote:Blaming fans is ridiculous and honestly giving a group with no effect at all way too much credit.

Unless you can prove it otherwise, I can only go by what I've seen so far....You can go back as far as you like, up until recent with THj. I don't have faith in the knick coaching staff to develop young talent. And you may be a patient fan, but the knicks have more fans than you. And these young players are attached to social media all the time. It takes a special player (especially a young player) to survive all of the negativity he will get from everybody, including fans. I think you are underestimating the power of fans who control how much money Dolan makes, which forces Dolan into making dumb decisions. I don't trust Fisher's development skills, since he's still learning on the job on how to win games. Melo and Phil only have a small timeline to turn this ship around, so they don't have patiences to give a rookie a lot of playing time, if they are 2 years away from being an impact player, as some of us have said in this forum. Since Mudiay could be more valuable to other teams, why not use him as trade bait? Unless you see him as the next Kobe Bryant or MJ.....Then you keep him. I don't see it under the current management and culture we have right now.

If the window is too small, trade Melo, don't foreclose on the future.

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

technomaster wrote:http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/2014-slam-high-school-all-americans/#30+71dec129cb

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2014/order/true

A few lists.

A question is whether mudiay's exposure to a higher level of competition has seemingly hurt him vs Russell, whose year in college and brought him up to an elite level. (Relatively speaking a year of college has dropped tyus Jones a bit, tho you cannot teach height and perhaps that's the reality of the nba).

Mudiay gets dinged mostly because he got hurt and only played in 13 or so games. Those games in my opinion came against stronger competition than college, against grown men and former nba players who don't want to get punked by an 18 year old hotshot.

In December/jan, Russell still wasn't being talked about - but he came on strong, we can certainly give him credit for that. To be clear, given the choice I'd take russell given the larger same size for my eyes. But mudiay could easily be the better pro.

With respect to player dev, I think fisher takes e Knicks to another level, given his work as the veteran sage for guys like Deron Williams and Westbrook and reggie Jackson.

I think people forget what Fisher's history has been in the league. He has been lauded by every teammate he's played with as a guy that helped them and guided them. There is a contingent of posters who want to kick dirt on Fish even tho there are signs he has talent as a leader. His team hung tough all year. They may have lost games but they were going hard all year and when the team started to win a couple of games people dissed Fish, but didn't give him his due as a coach with very little talent getting his team to play hard. You can't have it both ways.

IMO Fish most definitely could've won more games with more talent. Guys were executing as best they could but you can't magically turn low talent players into stars. I think Fish will do well with better talent. I think he'd be a good coach for Russell, Winslow or Mudiay.

I loved fisher and phil before they became cursed by Dolan. Ever since they cut Ewing...anybody that touches this organization goes down fast.....

Dolan has been used as a whipping boy for a long time. Beating that dead horse brings nothing to the conversation. Phil and his team are on their own and know what they want. They are starting from ground zero thanks to an unforeseeable early season meltdown. This is the end of year one of a five year journey.

and the Knicks organization has been misused for over a decade for the Ewing debacle. This year the Knicks accepted no aging superstars with mysterious injuries, they made no perpetually punishing bad trades, and the roster is clean.

blkexec wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

blkexec wrote:

knickscity wrote:Blaming fans is ridiculous and honestly giving a group with no effect at all way too much credit.

Unless you can prove it otherwise, I can only go by what I've seen so far....You can go back as far as you like, up until recent with THj. I don't have faith in the knick coaching staff to develop young talent. And you may be a patient fan, but the knicks have more fans than you. And these young players are attached to social media all the time. It takes a special player (especially a young player) to survive all of the negativity he will get from everybody, including fans. I think you are underestimating the power of fans who control how much money Dolan makes, which forces Dolan into making dumb decisions. I don't trust Fisher's development skills, since he's still learning on the job on how to win games. Melo and Phil only have a small timeline to turn this ship around, so they don't have patiences to give a rookie a lot of playing time, if they are 2 years away from being an impact player, as some of us have said in this forum. Since Mudiay could be more valuable to other teams, why not use him as trade bait? Unless you see him as the next Kobe Bryant or MJ.....Then you keep him. I don't see it under the current management and culture we have right now.

If the window is too small, trade Melo, don't foreclose on the future.

Thanks to our wonderful ROOKIE GM...Melo has a no trade clause.

It's a basic courtesy to FAs signing their last max contract, if we had traded him to a **** team he didn't want to go to after signing him it would not play well with other veterans and their agents.

At some point we NEED TOP TIER TALENTS as the Triangle always had
We do not have those type of players and Muddiay has the potential to be that type of player

We do not have Kobe/Shaq, Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom, Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman

So picking role players to fit a system without those 2way versatile STAR TALENTS that had the ability to score/penetrate/post up as #1 and #2 options, that was why they didn't need a PG
Who do we have that is comparable to those TOP TEIR TALENTS?

Not saying Muddiay will be Westbrook but Westbrook shot 50% in his freshman year at college and was horrible at Muddiay's age as well
How hard a player puts in to the work/work ethic and having the right players/fit to push with them, along with a development staff to help them reach their ceilings and work on their weakness's is what makes Curry, Westbrook, Durant, Butler etc...

blkexec wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

blkexec wrote:

knickscity wrote:Blaming fans is ridiculous and honestly giving a group with no effect at all way too much credit.

Unless you can prove it otherwise, I can only go by what I've seen so far....You can go back as far as you like, up until recent with THj. I don't have faith in the knick coaching staff to develop young talent. And you may be a patient fan, but the knicks have more fans than you. And these young players are attached to social media all the time. It takes a special player (especially a young player) to survive all of the negativity he will get from everybody, including fans. I think you are underestimating the power of fans who control how much money Dolan makes, which forces Dolan into making dumb decisions. I don't trust Fisher's development skills, since he's still learning on the job on how to win games. Melo and Phil only have a small timeline to turn this ship around, so they don't have patiences to give a rookie a lot of playing time, if they are 2 years away from being an impact player, as some of us have said in this forum. Since Mudiay could be more valuable to other teams, why not use him as trade bait? Unless you see him as the next Kobe Bryant or MJ.....Then you keep him. I don't see it under the current management and culture we have right now.

If the window is too small, trade Melo, don't foreclose on the future.

Thanks to our wonderful ROOKIE GM...Melo has a no trade clause.

He wanted that so that he could approve of a trading destination not so he could not be traded. It doesn't mean a lot.

If you have nba insider....please post this article. Its old but it has some scouting info on mudiay from a close nba player thats been with him overseas other than marbury.

blkexec wrote:http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12417221/opponents-analyze-emmanuel-mudiay-strengths-weaknesses-outlook-nba-draft

If you have nba insider....please post this article. Its old but it has some scouting info on mudiay from a close nba player thats been with him overseas other than marbury.

blkexec wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

blkexec wrote:

knickscity wrote:Blaming fans is ridiculous and honestly giving a group with no effect at all way too much credit.

Unless you can prove it otherwise, I can only go by what I've seen so far....You can go back as far as you like, up until recent with THj. I don't have faith in the knick coaching staff to develop young talent. And you may be a patient fan, but the knicks have more fans than you. And these young players are attached to social media all the time. It takes a special player (especially a young player) to survive all of the negativity he will get from everybody, including fans. I think you are underestimating the power of fans who control how much money Dolan makes, which forces Dolan into making dumb decisions. I don't trust Fisher's development skills, since he's still learning on the job on how to win games. Melo and Phil only have a small timeline to turn this ship around, so they don't have patiences to give a rookie a lot of playing time, if they are 2 years away from being an impact player, as some of us have said in this forum. Since Mudiay could be more valuable to other teams, why not use him as trade bait? Unless you see him as the next Kobe Bryant or MJ.....Then you keep him. I don't see it under the current management and culture we have right now.

If the window is too small, trade Melo, don't foreclose on the future.

Thanks to our wonderful ROOKIE GM...Melo has a no trade clause.

Yeah, which truly sucks. But let's face it, a player of his calibre always has one.

Hopefully, Phil can work out a good deal with the Lakers and then convince Kobe to go one more year. If it nets us Towns, I am willing to let them take Melo a bit cheaper than he might otherwise be worth. Of course, we'd need at least another unprotected first rounder, maybe a second and some role players for salary matching,

Moonangie wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

blkexec wrote:

knickscity wrote:Blaming fans is ridiculous and honestly giving a group with no effect at all way too much credit.

Unless you can prove it otherwise, I can only go by what I've seen so far....You can go back as far as you like, up until recent with THj. I don't have faith in the knick coaching staff to develop young talent. And you may be a patient fan, but the knicks have more fans than you. And these young players are attached to social media all the time. It takes a special player (especially a young player) to survive all of the negativity he will get from everybody, including fans. I think you are underestimating the power of fans who control how much money Dolan makes, which forces Dolan into making dumb decisions. I don't trust Fisher's development skills, since he's still learning on the job on how to win games. Melo and Phil only have a small timeline to turn this ship around, so they don't have patiences to give a rookie a lot of playing time, if they are 2 years away from being an impact player, as some of us have said in this forum. Since Mudiay could be more valuable to other teams, why not use him as trade bait? Unless you see him as the next Kobe Bryant or MJ.....Then you keep him. I don't see it under the current management and culture we have right now.

If the window is too small, trade Melo, don't foreclose on the future.

Thanks to our wonderful ROOKIE GM...Melo has a no trade clause.

Yeah, which truly sucks. But let's face it, a player of his calibre always has one.

Hopefully, Phil can work out a good deal with the Lakers and then convince Kobe to go one more year. If it nets us Towns, I am willing to let them take Melo a bit cheaper than he might otherwise be worth. Of course, we'd need at least another unprotected first rounder, maybe a second and some role players for salary matching,

You offer Melo a trade to team with a real shot at a ring in the near future and I bet he jumps at the opportunity.

jbeachboy wrote:

blkexec wrote:After recently watching more video of Mudiay. Granted I've watched him earlier in the season, just in case we would be in this position. I also watched Winslow, who's the exact same height. And Mudiay is definitely the better talent, and should be the pick at 4....The only problem is I don't see him starting, which isn't bad for his development, but it still leaves the same amount of open sports in our starting lineup. He's not starting over Calderson, or Shev'd who could also move over to the 2 guard. It's still interesting they compare Winslow to Harden, but it's probably because they are both lefty and have the same Euro step move to the paint. But Winslow is no Harden.

Mudiay has that take over ability, all the great Laker or Bulls guards has. It's just from the PG position with his penetrate and passing skills, especially during transition. Fisher might be a good coach for him, since they are both PG's. I like how Mudiay can balance his scoring and passing, while looking normal at it. Verses Marbury in his prime and other scoring guards would pass as a last option. Sometimes it's Mudiay's first option.

Again, I just saw highlight video's which is never a good thing to do. But his highlights shows his high ceiling, if he continues to improve and get stronger. Jumper looks good to me, just needs some normal tweeking and reps in the off season, and he would be straight. Winslow needs a little more to become a shooter off the dribble. Mudiay has the right length to be a good defender as well. I see a little John Wall in him, just a notch slower and more of a PG than Wall was as a scoring PG.

It couldve been worse....Whoever is picking 5th is in trouble. The talent level starts to drop off significantly.

mudiay is better talent over winslow but he isnt starting, why are they drafting him then?

get winslow, he can defend 4 positions!

Simple fix...get rid of Calderon.