martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The problem with Mudiay and the triangle is hes an ISO player who cant shoot very well. He is only a good athlete not a great athlete and somewhat careless with the ball right now. So you have a player who needs the ball doesnt shoot amd tens to be careless with it-- it will take significant developmental time(Think Exum) He will be in developmental mode for probably two years. IF we played a more open style I might think differently but we play system basketball and these are the facts. Hell be a solid basketball QB--maybe great but at a minimum safe. However he is not a triangle PG right now. He may be a D league 10-20 game guy before he comes to MSG.

you may have just described Kobe coming out of HS too

Wow flash from the past. Kobe Bryant really was a high school legend-- he broke wilt chamberlains scoring records in the state of Pennsylvania. If the league was set upback then with the same tools and access we have today(really before the internet really was much of anything yet) he would've been pick 1 without question.Kobe was the guy who broke the mold.Kobe is probably 2 inches taller than mudiay although mudiays body was much more put together he probably outweighed Kobe by 20-25 pounds. Kobe was an elite athlete a 10 type. Mudiay is a good athlete maybe a 7.5 in comparison. In best case scenarios I would view mudiay as a smaller magic type pg. Magic wasn't the athlete mudiay is but he didn't need to be he was 6-9. I like Mudiay but they will really have to look at him. I have no problems with the pick but Knick fans thinking he is Kobe or something like that right away will come back disappointed. I'm sure the Knicks will have him in for multiple workouts and hopefully he it won't be 1-1 against a chair. I don't think the Knicks are going to lose martin I think almost every player they are interested in has potential NBA all star ability-- to bad we couldn't get two of these guys. The one guy I fear passing on for some reason at 4 is Winslow. I like kaminsky in a trade down scenario where we get a 2016 pick because he fits the triangle in a unique way-- if he fell to 14 I would hope we could find a way to grab the second pick

mudiay as a ballhandler gets 6 assists but 3 turnovers per game is a red flag-- those turnovers are from telegraphing passes

lastly, and most importantly, the level of competition in the chinese league and high school all-america-- is this is a good gauge? red flag.

and then he skips the draft combine....

NO THANKS!

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:mudiay as a shooter is worrisome. he has bad form on his shot: 58%FT and 30% from 3 is a red flag. 54.5% from 2 means he's a slasher only... bfd

mudiay as a ballhandler gets 6 assists but 3 turnovers per game is a red flag-- those turnovers are from telegraphing passes

lastly, and most importantly, the level of competition in the chinese league and high school all-america-- is this is a good gauge? red flag.

and then he skips the draft combine....

NO THANKS!

Mudiay shot 34% from 3pt range. We don't know what Mudiay's shooting form looks like now. He's had months to work on his skills. Also it's hard to make too much of 12 games in the CBA when he was 18 yrs old and fresh out of High School. You have to be able to project how a player is likely to develop. There are scouts who have been keeping up with Mudiay's development and i'm sure they're getting all kinds of updates on his progress since the end of the CBA season.

34% from the chinese league 3 which looks similar to college distance. your form can only be improved so much at this stage of life. look at his free throw shooting as a litmus test-- that's usually a tell-tale sign. but you knew that already so why argue about it vis a vis the three?

all things being equal we can only go on what we see and what i see is a solid two-way player in winslow with clear intangibles-- including and especially leadership. i see none of this in mudiay.

There was an article quoting a Spurs scout where he said that Mudiay's form was good and that his shooting could easily be improved. Where are you getting your information on the cba three distance?

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The problem with Mudiay and the triangle is hes an ISO player who cant shoot very well. He is only a good athlete not a great athlete and somewhat careless with the ball right now. So you have a player who needs the ball doesnt shoot amd tens to be careless with it-- it will take significant developmental time(Think Exum) He will be in developmental mode for probably two years. IF we played a more open style I might think differently but we play system basketball and these are the facts. Hell be a solid basketball QB--maybe great but at a minimum safe. However he is not a triangle PG right now. He may be a D league 10-20 game guy before he comes to MSG.

you may have just described Kobe coming out of HS too

this is true... but kobe's work ethic is unparalleled. i did have one thought at one time before you brought it up... is he kobe'isque... something like him coming into the league. you do see that level of athleticism, but kobe really listened to phil jackson. kobe came straight out of high school and was very moldable. i fear with mudiay if the CBA lack of athleticism has spoiled him to where he won't be even half of what kobe was in his prime.

is he the adjusting type... he's going to be dealing with grown men with guns on offense and defense.
it is obvious that he's not the steph curry, steve nash type.

is he supposed to be a SG in the NBA?
i think the scouting that Phil Jackson needs to be doing on him is around his mental makeup and will.

shooting is 90% mental as frazier says... so why is he so terrible from range?

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:mudiay as a shooter is worrisome. he has bad form on his shot: 58%FT and 30% from 3 is a red flag. 54.5% from 2 means he's a slasher only... bfd

mudiay as a ballhandler gets 6 assists but 3 turnovers per game is a red flag-- those turnovers are from telegraphing passes

lastly, and most importantly, the level of competition in the chinese league and high school all-america-- is this is a good gauge? red flag.

and then he skips the draft combine....

NO THANKS!

Mudiay shot 34% from 3pt range. We don't know what Mudiay's shooting form looks like now. He's had months to work on his skills. Also it's hard to make too much of 12 games in the CBA when he was 18 yrs old and fresh out of High School. You have to be able to project how a player is likely to develop. There are scouts who have been keeping up with Mudiay's development and i'm sure they're getting all kinds of updates on his progress since the end of the CBA season.

34% from the chinese league 3 which looks similar to college distance. your form can only be improved so much at this stage of life. look at his free throw shooting as a litmus test-- that's usually a tell-tale sign. but you knew that already so why argue about it vis a vis the three?

all things being equal we can only go on what we see and what i see is a solid two-way player in winslow with clear intangibles-- including and especially leadership. i see none of this in mudiay.

There was an article quoting a Spurs scout where he said that Mudiay's form was good and that his shooting could easily be improved. Where are you getting your information on the cba three distance?

look at the videos and see where the three point line is relative to the top arc of the half circle above the free throw line.

Knick fans arent patient enough for this pick.

Fisher is not a player development coach.

If we draft Mudiay....he will be injury prone because he will try and do too much due to fan and media pressure. This is not the right environment for Mudiay to reach his potential. The ball will be in Melos hand. He will be the first guy down the floor like shump used to do....just to pull up and wait for others. He will shine in Philly because its a free flowing offense that doesnt require thinking. Mudiay is the better tallent...i agree. But Winslow is the better pick. With any other team....Mudiay is the right pick. Look what happened to all the young dynamic guards we drafted. This is not a culture for rookies with flaws and a game thats not mature yet.

The knicks are like erotion soil. Thats why vets are the only plants to survive. Mudiay will look like shump with us....and Jason Kidd on any other team. The sad and honest truth. Real knick fans that understand please stand up. Mudiay will look like a superstar after his contract is up and hes on a another team. History tells us how this story will end. We need picks with mature game that are glue or system guys like Winslow.....Someone who going to shine right out the gate. Our daycare center has been terrible for over 20 years. No patiences for Mudiay here. I wish i was wrong...but we have to be honest with ourselves.

knickscity wrote:Blaming fans is ridiculous and honestly giving a group with no effect at all way too much credit.

Unless you can prove it otherwise, I can only go by what I've seen so far....You can go back as far as you like, up until recent with THj. I don't have faith in the knick coaching staff to develop young talent. And you may be a patient fan, but the knicks have more fans than you. And these young players are attached to social media all the time. It takes a special player (especially a young player) to survive all of the negativity he will get from everybody, including fans. I think you are underestimating the power of fans who control how much money Dolan makes, which forces Dolan into making dumb decisions. I don't trust Fisher's development skills, since he's still learning on the job on how to win games. Melo and Phil only have a small timeline to turn this ship around, so they don't have patiences to give a rookie a lot of playing time, if they are 2 years away from being an impact player, as some of us have said in this forum. Since Mudiay could be more valuable to other teams, why not use him as trade bait? Unless you see him as the next Kobe Bryant or MJ.....Then you keep him. I don't see it under the current management and culture we have right now.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2014/order/true

A few lists.

A question is whether mudiay's exposure to a higher level of competition has seemingly hurt him vs Russell, whose year in college and brought him up to an elite level. (Relatively speaking a year of college has dropped tyus Jones a bit, tho you cannot teach height and perhaps that's the reality of the nba).

Mudiay gets dinged mostly because he got hurt and only played in 13 or so games. Those games in my opinion came against stronger competition than college, against grown men and former nba players who don't want to get punked by an 18 year old hotshot.

In December/jan, Russell still wasn't being talked about - but he came on strong, we can certainly give him credit for that. To be clear, given the choice I'd take russell given the larger same size for my eyes. But mudiay could easily be the better pro.

With respect to player dev, I think fisher takes e Knicks to another level, given his work as the veteran sage for guys like Deron Williams and Westbrook and reggie Jackson.

nixluva wrote:

technomaster wrote:http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/2014-slam-high-school-all-americans/#30+71dec129cb

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2014/order/true

A few lists.

A question is whether mudiay's exposure to a higher level of competition has seemingly hurt him vs Russell, whose year in college and brought him up to an elite level. (Relatively speaking a year of college has dropped tyus Jones a bit, tho you cannot teach height and perhaps that's the reality of the nba).

Mudiay gets dinged mostly because he got hurt and only played in 13 or so games. Those games in my opinion came against stronger competition than college, against grown men and former nba players who don't want to get punked by an 18 year old hotshot.

In December/jan, Russell still wasn't being talked about - but he came on strong, we can certainly give him credit for that. To be clear, given the choice I'd take russell given the larger same size for my eyes. But mudiay could easily be the better pro.

With respect to player dev, I think fisher takes e Knicks to another level, given his work as the veteran sage for guys like Deron Williams and Westbrook and reggie Jackson.

I think people forget what Fisher's history has been in the league. He has been lauded by every teammate he's played with as a guy that helped them and guided them. There is a contingent of posters who want to kick dirt on Fish even tho there are signs he has talent as a leader. His team hung tough all year. They may have lost games but they were going hard all year and when the team started to win a couple of games people dissed Fish, but didn't give him his due as a coach with very little talent getting his team to play hard. You can't have it both ways.

IMO Fish most definitely could've won more games with more talent. Guys were executing as best they could but you can't magically turn low talent players into stars. I think Fish will do well with better talent. I think he'd be a good coach for Russell, Winslow or Mudiay.

I loved fisher and phil before they became cursed by Dolan. Ever since they cut Ewing...anybody that touches this organization goes down fast.....

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

technomaster wrote:http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/2014-slam-high-school-all-americans/#30+71dec129cb

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2014/order/true

A few lists.

A question is whether mudiay's exposure to a higher level of competition has seemingly hurt him vs Russell, whose year in college and brought him up to an elite level. (Relatively speaking a year of college has dropped tyus Jones a bit, tho you cannot teach height and perhaps that's the reality of the nba).

Mudiay gets dinged mostly because he got hurt and only played in 13 or so games. Those games in my opinion came against stronger competition than college, against grown men and former nba players who don't want to get punked by an 18 year old hotshot.

In December/jan, Russell still wasn't being talked about - but he came on strong, we can certainly give him credit for that. To be clear, given the choice I'd take russell given the larger same size for my eyes. But mudiay could easily be the better pro.

With respect to player dev, I think fisher takes e Knicks to another level, given his work as the veteran sage for guys like Deron Williams and Westbrook and reggie Jackson.

I think people forget what Fisher's history has been in the league. He has been lauded by every teammate he's played with as a guy that helped them and guided them. There is a contingent of posters who want to kick dirt on Fish even tho there are signs he has talent as a leader. His team hung tough all year. They may have lost games but they were going hard all year and when the team started to win a couple of games people dissed Fish, but didn't give him his due as a coach with very little talent getting his team to play hard. You can't have it both ways.

IMO Fish most definitely could've won more games with more talent. Guys were executing as best they could but you can't magically turn low talent players into stars. I think Fish will do well with better talent. I think he'd be a good coach for Russell, Winslow or Mudiay.

I loved fisher and phil before they became cursed by Dolan.

HA! That's funny. I actually don't look at it as them being cursed. They still have a lot of control over how successful they can be here. The #4 pick, $28 Mil of cap space, Several Trade Exceptions. It's not the greatest collection but it's not bad either. They have to make it work and get maximum return on every asset they have. Right now they're working to figure out how to maximize every dollar.

I'm sure they have a cap guy who can crunch the numbers and figure out how to tweak things via the rules and find the best way to structure the cap. You have this guy come up with several scenarios and you go to work.