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The Case for Emmanuel Mudiay
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CrushAlot
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5/22/2015  1:54 PM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just looking at his ability from over a year ago you can see the talent this kid has. His court vision and passing is all there. You can see the athletic ability and driving ability is all there.

If we added Mudiay and resigned Shved we'd have 2 big guards who attack the basket and pass the ball, which would allow us to keep the same flow for an entire game. Both would push the ball and look for early offense which would immediately make the offense more efficient. Both finish well around the basket and get to the line which is also important. If you're going to run an offense that isn't 3pt dependent then you need guards like them to make it work.

The only problem with highlight videos on Mudiay, is that it only shows the highs. But if you watch a video of his lows, it will balance your expectations. He's a great And 1 type of guard. Break you down and look for the pass....Can jump out the gym. But as a PG, would you say he can be better than Mark Jackson? Jason Kidd? I don't see it. The best I see is a poor man John Wall.....And it took him 3 or more years to reach the level he's at now......Everybody doesn't have that same drive or environment to succeed. In NY, especially right now, you need instant success, or he will be on another team like JR, killing it for somebody else.

He reminds me a lot of Jason Kidd when he first came into the league. Also, that is the case with anyone's highlight videos. You are going to see them playing well. Scouts and nba people know who Mudiay is and he has been well scouted. There are links in this thread to watch his games in china if you wanted to
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blkexec
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5/22/2015  2:13 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just looking at his ability from over a year ago you can see the talent this kid has. His court vision and passing is all there. You can see the athletic ability and driving ability is all there.

If we added Mudiay and resigned Shved we'd have 2 big guards who attack the basket and pass the ball, which would allow us to keep the same flow for an entire game. Both would push the ball and look for early offense which would immediately make the offense more efficient. Both finish well around the basket and get to the line which is also important. If you're going to run an offense that isn't 3pt dependent then you need guards like them to make it work.

The only problem with highlight videos on Mudiay, is that it only shows the highs. But if you watch a video of his lows, it will balance your expectations. He's a great And 1 type of guard. Break you down and look for the pass....Can jump out the gym. But as a PG, would you say he can be better than Mark Jackson? Jason Kidd? I don't see it. The best I see is a poor man John Wall.....And it took him 3 or more years to reach the level he's at now......Everybody doesn't have that same drive or environment to succeed. In NY, especially right now, you need instant success, or he will be on another team like JR, killing it for somebody else.

He reminds me a lot of Jason Kidd when he first came into the league. Also, that is the case with anyone's highlight videos. You are going to see them playing well. Scouts and nba people know who Mudiay is and he has been well scouted. There are links in this thread to watch his games in china if you wanted to

I saw those links and I started watching them.....But I don't have the patience of a real NBA scout, so I stopped watching them. But I play ball and I can tell, based on highlight videos and weaknesses that I've read. They are usually the same, with dynamic guards like Mudiay. I see the Kidd comparisons, but what you don't see and will never see is the heart like Kidd. The maturity and consistency to get better like Kidd. Everybody has similar skills....But the HOF players have more than skills which is why they are great. Nobody knows the kind of fire he has. I think going to China tells a lot about him. But if Kidd went to China, instead of college.....He would've broke all kinds of triple double stats.....Kidd was that good at the same age. Mudiay isn't at that level right now. Kidd looked like the floor general that you can trust in the 4th quarter. Mudiay is still learning to be efficient.

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CrushAlot
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5/22/2015  2:23 PM
^^^^ Mudiay went to China to help his family. Not sure what that would tell about him that is negative.
"Emmanuel Mudiay has decided to pursue professional basketball opportunities," Brown said in a statement. "This is not an academic issue, since he has been admitted to SMU, but rather a hardship issue," Brown said in a statement. "After talking to Emmanuel, I know he really wants to alleviate some of the challenges his family faces and recognizes that he has an opportunity to help them now. While I believe that college is the best way to prepare for life and the NBA, Emmanuel's situation is unique. We were excited about having him at SMU, but we understand this decision and wish him the best."

In a statement toSports Illustrated, Mudiay said, "I was excited about going to SMU and playing college basketball for coach Brown and his staff and preparing for the NBA ...But I was tired of seeing my mom struggle. And after sitting down with coach Brown and my family, we decided that the best way for me to provide for my mom was to forgo college and pursue professional basketball opportunities."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/07/14/emmanuel-mudiay-smu-decides-to-turn-pro-overseas/12634877/
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nixluva
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5/22/2015  2:31 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:Just looking at his ability from over a year ago you can see the talent this kid has. His court vision and passing is all there. You can see the athletic ability and driving ability is all there.

If we added Mudiay and resigned Shved we'd have 2 big guards who attack the basket and pass the ball, which would allow us to keep the same flow for an entire game. Both would push the ball and look for early offense which would immediately make the offense more efficient. Both finish well around the basket and get to the line which is also important. If you're going to run an offense that isn't 3pt dependent then you need guards like them to make it work.

The only problem with highlight videos on Mudiay, is that it only shows the highs. But if you watch a video of his lows, it will balance your expectations. He's a great And 1 type of guard. Break you down and look for the pass....Can jump out the gym. But as a PG, would you say he can be better than Mark Jackson? Jason Kidd? I don't see it. The best I see is a poor man John Wall.....And it took him 3 or more years to reach the level he's at now......Everybody doesn't have that same drive or environment to succeed. In NY, especially right now, you need instant success, or he will be on another team like JR, killing it for somebody else.

He reminds me a lot of Jason Kidd when he first came into the league. Also, that is the case with anyone's highlight videos. You are going to see them playing well. Scouts and nba people know who Mudiay is and he has been well scouted. There are links in this thread to watch his games in china if you wanted to

People seem to forget that this kid was highly ranked in High School and he didn't disappoint in China. He played well enough to know that he is legit. Scouts were there to follow him and his progress. He's not a finished product which is why those who are down on him need to relax a bit. He's clearly got the makings of a star player already. If you know what you're looking for you can tell when a player has the right stuff and is more likely to continue to develop into more than he is currently. Determining player potential is not easy but there are those who have been doing it for a long time who say he's a worthy prospect.
GustavBahler
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5/22/2015  2:48 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Using a number 4 pick on a PG who cant consistently hit a jumper concerns me. Sure there are PGs who had the same issue who turned out to be very good players, but its a big gamble with a gutted roster.

The break down talked about Mudiay's lack of shooting off the dribble. I disagree that the shots the clip highlighted were really off the dribble because Mudiay had plenty of time to stop, set, and shoot a brick. The earlier part of the breakdown where he was shooting while up in the air, in motion where closer to what I consider off the dribble. Those higlights showed promise.

Still haven't made up my mind who we should pick, but I do like Mudiay's PNR ability, his ability to see the floor, make a quick pass in motion, and his handle. The negatives in his game makes him a high risk, high reward player. With a gutted roster, don't know if thats what kind of player we should be picking at 4.

how do you feel about Westbrook?

Depends on what day you ask me, lol. Until this season I admired his skills, thought he looked for his shot too much. Thought Westbrook showed more of an all around game with Durant out. Mudiay is a couple of gears slower than Westbrook. If he wasn't I might be more inclined to see Phil take a chance on drafting him.

I think a couple of gears slower isnt really fair... but regardless the ability to drive and dish trumps pure shooting IMO, certainly for this team. We just dont have anyone who can break down a defense off the dribble. Nobody. The triangle is cute for freeing these guys for open looks at 20 footers, but for that system to really be effective you need the threat of someone who can break down the D and that is a skill Mudiay brings right out of the gate.

I see a lot of issues.. he gets out of control at times, doesnt take care of the ball at the level an NBA PG should and his jumper is pretty average. There are an equal amount of positives though. I thought the praise from Marbury was telling, as they played h2h and Marbs can flatout play. That being said I had Mudiay 4th on my prospect list, and while he's my least fav of the top 4 I have always said there is no reason he couldnt be the best player in the draft. Any of the 4 can.. they are all unique, different from each other and bring different things.

Life isnt fair Fish, J/K. Ok maybe just one gear slower. Mudiay has a lot of upside, my concern is using a high pick with the negatives he has and a close to a blank slate roster. We havent had a pick this high in eons, want Phil to get this right. We are hopefully picking a player to succeed Melo as the top dog, that is if we do keep the pick.

fishmike
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5/22/2015  3:46 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Using a number 4 pick on a PG who cant consistently hit a jumper concerns me. Sure there are PGs who had the same issue who turned out to be very good players, but its a big gamble with a gutted roster.

The break down talked about Mudiay's lack of shooting off the dribble. I disagree that the shots the clip highlighted were really off the dribble because Mudiay had plenty of time to stop, set, and shoot a brick. The earlier part of the breakdown where he was shooting while up in the air, in motion where closer to what I consider off the dribble. Those higlights showed promise.

Still haven't made up my mind who we should pick, but I do like Mudiay's PNR ability, his ability to see the floor, make a quick pass in motion, and his handle. The negatives in his game makes him a high risk, high reward player. With a gutted roster, don't know if thats what kind of player we should be picking at 4.

how do you feel about Westbrook?

Depends on what day you ask me, lol. Until this season I admired his skills, thought he looked for his shot too much. Thought Westbrook showed more of an all around game with Durant out. Mudiay is a couple of gears slower than Westbrook. If he wasn't I might be more inclined to see Phil take a chance on drafting him.

I think a couple of gears slower isnt really fair... but regardless the ability to drive and dish trumps pure shooting IMO, certainly for this team. We just dont have anyone who can break down a defense off the dribble. Nobody. The triangle is cute for freeing these guys for open looks at 20 footers, but for that system to really be effective you need the threat of someone who can break down the D and that is a skill Mudiay brings right out of the gate.

I see a lot of issues.. he gets out of control at times, doesnt take care of the ball at the level an NBA PG should and his jumper is pretty average. There are an equal amount of positives though. I thought the praise from Marbury was telling, as they played h2h and Marbs can flatout play. That being said I had Mudiay 4th on my prospect list, and while he's my least fav of the top 4 I have always said there is no reason he couldnt be the best player in the draft. Any of the 4 can.. they are all unique, different from each other and bring different things.

Life isnt fair Fish, J/K. Ok maybe just one gear slower. Mudiay has a lot of upside, my concern is using a high pick with the negatives he has and a close to a blank slate roster. We havent had a pick this high in eons, want Phil to get this right. We are hopefully picking a player to succeed Melo as the top dog, that is if we do keep the pick.

its tough one isnt it? You want to pick a cornerstone piece, but have to ensure you at least get a piece. Of the 4 guys I ranked for this draft I have Towns and Mudiay 3 and 4 for that reason.

But find me one scouting report that says this kid is going to bust, or has red flags...I really cant find one. I havent seen one site or report that says he's not a top 5 pick. So for whatever reason nobody has backed off this..

smackeddog
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5/22/2015  3:56 PM
An interesting take on the draft:

http://deanondraft.com/2015/04/03/2015-big-board-how-do-we-rate-mudiay/

Upsidey Guys Who Are Starting To Get a Bit Warty
5. Emmanuel Mudiay

Assessing Mudiay’s draft stock is an interesting topic. I am a big advocate of swinging for the fences, since upside is far more important than downside and passing up a future star for a decent player is far more harmful than passing up a decent player for a bust. But the mystery box factor actually puts a dent in a Mudiay’s upside, as passing the check point of NCAA competence makes a player more likely to achieve their theoretical upside.

If Mudiay had spent this past season in college, he may have been as disappointing as past prospects such as Andrew Harrison, Marquis Teague, Austin Rivers, etc. Based on descriptions that his game needs polish, it is highly unlikely that he would have outperformed his #2 RSCI pedigree and boosted his stock by any significant margin. The fact that he is being evaluated as if he played NCAA and lived up to the hype is insane, as he is avoiding the risk that he falls out of favor with scouts with his flaws under a microscope without any opportunity cost. Drafting him over Winslow or Russell would be an unequivocal mistake with so much more downside and little (if any) additional upside.

This point should be especially obvious with the rookie disappointment of Dante Exum, who I believe had a more compelling thin slice. Mudiay’s physical tools are slightly preferrable, as he is more explosive with a better frame but does not quite have Exum’s quickness and is an inch shorter. Both have a gaping wart in their shooting ability, with Mudiay’s being marginally more worrisome. The difference maker is that Exum was reputed as having a superior basketball IQ and feel for the game, which I agreed with based on the one game eye test. I do not believe Mudiay has a poor feel or basketball IQ like Andrew Harrison does, but his decision making has been called into question and nothing shines for him skill wise. Everything is sheer potential– he could be a great PG if he adds polish to his half-court skill. He could be a beast defensively, but I see little discussion of him actually showing noteworthy acumen or intensity on that end. Any discussion of his draft stock needs to come with the glaring red flag that he might be terrible at basketball.

There is a point in the top 10 where it is worth taking the risk that he is bad at basketball given his physical tools, which are comfortably above average across the board. With height, length, speed, quickness, strength, and athleticism, he offers the whole package. But he nevertheless does not have the freaky nuclear athleticism of John Wall, Derrick Rose, or Russell Westbrook, which makes playing Mudiay roulette a bit less enticing. I am not sure exactly where to place him, but 5th is the maximum reasonable peak and he could be argued to go a fair bit lower. I am keeping him 5th for now because I don’t have any strong conviction that any of my lower prospects ran above him, but he is much closer to 10th in my book than is to the top 3.

nixluva
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5/22/2015  4:55 PM
smackeddog wrote:An interesting take on the draft:

http://deanondraft.com/2015/04/03/2015-big-board-how-do-we-rate-mudiay/

Upsidey Guys Who Are Starting To Get a Bit Warty
5. Emmanuel Mudiay

Assessing Mudiay’s draft stock is an interesting topic. I am a big advocate of swinging for the fences, since upside is far more important than downside and passing up a future star for a decent player is far more harmful than passing up a decent player for a bust. But the mystery box factor actually puts a dent in a Mudiay’s upside, as passing the check point of NCAA competence makes a player more likely to achieve their theoretical upside.

If Mudiay had spent this past season in college, he may have been as disappointing as past prospects such as Andrew Harrison, Marquis Teague, Austin Rivers, etc. Based on descriptions that his game needs polish, it is highly unlikely that he would have outperformed his #2 RSCI pedigree and boosted his stock by any significant margin. The fact that he is being evaluated as if he played NCAA and lived up to the hype is insane, as he is avoiding the risk that he falls out of favor with scouts with his flaws under a microscope without any opportunity cost. Drafting him over Winslow or Russell would be an unequivocal mistake with so much more downside and little (if any) additional upside.

This point should be especially obvious with the rookie disappointment of Dante Exum, who I believe had a more compelling thin slice. Mudiay’s physical tools are slightly preferrable, as he is more explosive with a better frame but does not quite have Exum’s quickness and is an inch shorter. Both have a gaping wart in their shooting ability, with Mudiay’s being marginally more worrisome. The difference maker is that Exum was reputed as having a superior basketball IQ and feel for the game, which I agreed with based on the one game eye test. I do not believe Mudiay has a poor feel or basketball IQ like Andrew Harrison does, but his decision making has been called into question and nothing shines for him skill wise. Everything is sheer potential– he could be a great PG if he adds polish to his half-court skill. He could be a beast defensively, but I see little discussion of him actually showing noteworthy acumen or intensity on that end. Any discussion of his draft stock needs to come with the glaring red flag that he might be terrible at basketball.

There is a point in the top 10 where it is worth taking the risk that he is bad at basketball given his physical tools, which are comfortably above average across the board. With height, length, speed, quickness, strength, and athleticism, he offers the whole package. But he nevertheless does not have the freaky nuclear athleticism of John Wall, Derrick Rose, or Russell Westbrook, which makes playing Mudiay roulette a bit less enticing. I am not sure exactly where to place him, but 5th is the maximum reasonable peak and he could be argued to go a fair bit lower. I am keeping him 5th for now because I don’t have any strong conviction that any of my lower prospects ran above him, but he is much closer to 10th in my book than is to the top 3.


I can understand this point of view, but from what i've seen and read Mudiay is not as out of control as Westbrook is and Wall was. Wall has since learned how to slow it down and play team ball. Mudiay is already that player. He's not mindlessly using his athletic ability but rather he's looking to run the offense and think the game. He has the ability to play fast and athletic if he wants to, but he showed much more maturity in his stint in China.

by: Mike Schmitz
March 4, 2015
Emmanuel Mudiay started the season in China and played in nine games before suffering an ankle injury that put him on the shelf. Under immense pressure due to an 8-3 start and the incredibly short and condensed nature of the CBA regular season (which packs 37 games into just 90 days), Guangdong elected to replace Mudiay with NBA veteran Will Bynum.

The move seemed to pay off, as the team did not lose a single game until the (meaningless) final game of the regular season, finishing 33-4 and with the #1 overall seed heading into the playoffs.

All the while, Mudiay was still working out and practicing with the team, continuing to collect his paycheck and staying ready for the event that he was called upon due to injury or a coach's decision.

That's exactly what ended up happening, as after losing the first two games of the playoff semifinals, Guangdong head coach Du Feng made the controversial decision to deactivate big man import Jeff Adrien in favor of an all-US backcourt of Bynum and Mudiay. The team only had one day off between games to prepare for this unconventional adjustment, with Mudiay and Bynum never having played together in any type of official setting.

Surprisingly, it worked. Mudiay came off the bench and played 34 minutes, scoring 24 points, grabbing eight rebounds, and dishing out four assists to go along with two turnovers. He shot just 6/15 from 2-point range, but made two of his four 3-point attempts and 6-10 free throws. Guangdong beat Beijing 110-99 at home, forcing a Game Four in Beijing two days later.

Things got a little bit stranger even in Game Four, as towards the end of the first quarter, Will Bynum went down with a hamstring injury that would shelve him for the rest of the game. From that point on, Mudiay was the only import at Guangdong's disposal, and he would go on to play a team-high 44 minutes (including an overtime session), looking utterly exhausted at times. Guangdong seemingly had the game won of a few different occasions, but the heroics of 38 year-old former NBA All-Star Stephon Marbury (who scored 38 points, including an incredible 3-pointer to force overtime) would ultimately prevent them from forcing a decisive Game 5 back on their home floor.

Mudiay didn't find the same success this time around, scoring 15 points, with 7 rebounds and 8 assists, but needing 14 shots (3-10 2P, 2-4 3P) to get there, turning the ball over six times, and again struggling from the free throw line, where he hit just 3-6 attempts (bringing him to 57% from the season). Guangdong's season ended on a disappointing note, with Beijing scoring on a miraculous putback at the buzzer to advance to the Finals against Liaoning.

Still, Mudiay's Chinese adventure went about as well as anyone could reasonably expect considering his age, lack of experience, and the incredible pressure of playing for a championship contending team in one of the least patient and rational basketball environments on earth. There are very few 18-year olds on the planet who are equipped to handle a situation like this, and all things considered, he certainly did not disappoint.

http://www.draftexpress.com/#ixzz3au1Tfp3V

It was just a very shot snap shot, but I think it was enough of a look to see how the kid handles very difficult circumstances.

Moonangie
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5/22/2015  5:13 PM
I am getting pretty close to sold on Mudiay. His shot can/will be fixed in the first couple of years.

Just think we need a playmaker/leader on this team. As much as I like Winslow, I do not see his upside being the same as Mudiay.

RonRon
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5/22/2015  5:26 PM
At pick 4, whether Russell or Mudiay
Mudiay has the highest upside with a LEGIT NBA TOP TIER PG body with legit PG skills
IMO, he isn't a combo guard like Tyreke Evans but in fact a BIG PG and looks to create for his team mates like John Wall does


I like Winslow a lot and if we had a TOP 2 PICK, I wouldn't mind trading down to acquire a combination of 2 TOP 6 talents with Muddiay/Winslow, then signing TOP TIER BIGS in this summer's FA class and next years 2017 FA class to finish it out

martin
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5/22/2015  5:30 PM
BRIGGS wrote:The problem with Mudiay and the triangle is hes an ISO player who cant shoot very well. He is only a good athlete not a great athlete and somewhat careless with the ball right now. So you have a player who needs the ball doesnt shoot amd tens to be careless with it-- it will take significant developmental time(Think Exum) He will be in developmental mode for probably two years. IF we played a more open style I might think differently but we play system basketball and these are the facts. Hell be a solid basketball QB--maybe great but at a minimum safe. However he is not a triangle PG right now. He may be a D league 10-20 game guy before he comes to MSG.

you may have just described Kobe coming out of HS too

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GustavBahler
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5/22/2015  5:36 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Using a number 4 pick on a PG who cant consistently hit a jumper concerns me. Sure there are PGs who had the same issue who turned out to be very good players, but its a big gamble with a gutted roster.

The break down talked about Mudiay's lack of shooting off the dribble. I disagree that the shots the clip highlighted were really off the dribble because Mudiay had plenty of time to stop, set, and shoot a brick. The earlier part of the breakdown where he was shooting while up in the air, in motion where closer to what I consider off the dribble. Those higlights showed promise.

Still haven't made up my mind who we should pick, but I do like Mudiay's PNR ability, his ability to see the floor, make a quick pass in motion, and his handle. The negatives in his game makes him a high risk, high reward player. With a gutted roster, don't know if thats what kind of player we should be picking at 4.

how do you feel about Westbrook?

Depends on what day you ask me, lol. Until this season I admired his skills, thought he looked for his shot too much. Thought Westbrook showed more of an all around game with Durant out. Mudiay is a couple of gears slower than Westbrook. If he wasn't I might be more inclined to see Phil take a chance on drafting him.

I think a couple of gears slower isnt really fair... but regardless the ability to drive and dish trumps pure shooting IMO, certainly for this team. We just dont have anyone who can break down a defense off the dribble. Nobody. The triangle is cute for freeing these guys for open looks at 20 footers, but for that system to really be effective you need the threat of someone who can break down the D and that is a skill Mudiay brings right out of the gate.

I see a lot of issues.. he gets out of control at times, doesnt take care of the ball at the level an NBA PG should and his jumper is pretty average. There are an equal amount of positives though. I thought the praise from Marbury was telling, as they played h2h and Marbs can flatout play. That being said I had Mudiay 4th on my prospect list, and while he's my least fav of the top 4 I have always said there is no reason he couldnt be the best player in the draft. Any of the 4 can.. they are all unique, different from each other and bring different things.

Life isnt fair Fish, J/K. Ok maybe just one gear slower. Mudiay has a lot of upside, my concern is using a high pick with the negatives he has and a close to a blank slate roster. We havent had a pick this high in eons, want Phil to get this right. We are hopefully picking a player to succeed Melo as the top dog, that is if we do keep the pick.

its tough one isnt it? You want to pick a cornerstone piece, but have to ensure you at least get a piece. Of the 4 guys I ranked for this draft I have Towns and Mudiay 3 and 4 for that reason.

But find me one scouting report that says this kid is going to bust, or has red flags...I really cant find one. I havent seen one site or report that says he's not a top 5 pick. So for whatever reason nobody has backed off this..

The higher the pick the lower the threshold for what is considered a bust IMO. Mudiay could be something special or he could turn into the second coming of Jonny Flynn. The red flags pointed out is his FG pct, 3pt shooting, FT shooting, turnovers, and his lapses in effort at times.

mreinman
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5/22/2015  5:46 PM
Moonangie wrote:I am getting pretty close to sold on Mudiay. His shot can/will be fixed in the first couple of years.

Just think we need a playmaker/leader on this team. As much as I like Winslow, I do not see his upside being the same as Mudiay.

I don't know how people can just keep saying that.

shots are not that easy to fix

so here is what phil is thinking ....
RonRon
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5/22/2015  6:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/22/2015  6:16 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Using a number 4 pick on a PG who cant consistently hit a jumper concerns me. Sure there are PGs who had the same issue who turned out to be very good players, but its a big gamble with a gutted roster.

The break down talked about Mudiay's lack of shooting off the dribble. I disagree that the shots the clip highlighted were really off the dribble because Mudiay had plenty of time to stop, set, and shoot a brick. The earlier part of the breakdown where he was shooting while up in the air, in motion where closer to what I consider off the dribble. Those higlights showed promise.

Still haven't made up my mind who we should pick, but I do like Mudiay's PNR ability, his ability to see the floor, make a quick pass in motion, and his handle. The negatives in his game makes him a high risk, high reward player. With a gutted roster, don't know if thats what kind of player we should be picking at 4.

how do you feel about Westbrook?

Depends on what day you ask me, lol. Until this season I admired his skills, thought he looked for his shot too much. Thought Westbrook showed more of an all around game with Durant out. Mudiay is a couple of gears slower than Westbrook. If he wasn't I might be more inclined to see Phil take a chance on drafting him.

I think a couple of gears slower isnt really fair... but regardless the ability to drive and dish trumps pure shooting IMO, certainly for this team. We just dont have anyone who can break down a defense off the dribble. Nobody. The triangle is cute for freeing these guys for open looks at 20 footers, but for that system to really be effective you need the threat of someone who can break down the D and that is a skill Mudiay brings right out of the gate.

I see a lot of issues.. he gets out of control at times, doesnt take care of the ball at the level an NBA PG should and his jumper is pretty average. There are an equal amount of positives though. I thought the praise from Marbury was telling, as they played h2h and Marbs can flatout play. That being said I had Mudiay 4th on my prospect list, and while he's my least fav of the top 4 I have always said there is no reason he couldnt be the best player in the draft. Any of the 4 can.. they are all unique, different from each other and bring different things.

Life isnt fair Fish, J/K. Ok maybe just one gear slower. Mudiay has a lot of upside, my concern is using a high pick with the negatives he has and a close to a blank slate roster. We havent had a pick this high in eons, want Phil to get this right. We are hopefully picking a player to succeed Melo as the top dog, that is if we do keep the pick.

its tough one isnt it? You want to pick a cornerstone piece, but have to ensure you at least get a piece. Of the 4 guys I ranked for this draft I have Towns and Mudiay 3 and 4 for that reason.

But find me one scouting report that says this kid is going to bust, or has red flags...I really cant find one. I havent seen one site or report that says he's not a top 5 pick. So for whatever reason nobody has backed off this..

The higher the pick the lower the threshold for what is considered a bust IMO. Mudiay could be something special or he could turn into the second coming of Jonny Flynn. The red flags pointed out is his FG pct, 3pt shooting, FT shooting, turnovers, and his lapses in effort at times.


ALL IN MY OPINION,

Gustav, we all have different opinions, however, did you watch Westbrook play in college and his first year as a rookie?
Mudiay is far ahead Westbrook was as he had to actually transition from a combo guard to what he is today
He has a NBA BIG PG body already, not comparable with Flynn

His body is comparable to Marcus Smart's body, however, he is far advanced than him in skills and physical abilities
Mudiay is far ahead of the body and skills of some of these high pick PG's like Lavine, Exum, Smart, and is much closer to Wall and far advanced than many of such "high ceiling players" with his body type, physical abilities, and skills
Those guys have to first develop their bodies and then their skills, in which they could lose physical abilities in the process, where as Mudiay body is filled out already and he has to work on getting better along with his weakness's of shooting and playing with MEN


I actually like that he will have to prove that he is better than DeAngello Russell, giving him an incentive
We need to get him John Wall's trainer and development coaches to work on his shooting as well
I like Justice Winslow a lot however, if we can not pair him with a Jimmy Butler/Kawaii/Lebron or top notch defender, I fear he will not be enough like Iman wasn't enough
While we also have Thanasis who plays the same position as Winslow and unless we get another TOP NOTCH PG that could defend or facilitate from another position or unless Winslow becomes a PG, I don't see how we can pair him with enough defenders to make it work
If Winslow can play PG and we get another TOP NOTCH defender that could facilitate in that way, I would take my chances on a poor mans John Wall, Steve Francis, filled out Livingston being his absolute low and he has the body to play in the POST to initiate the OFFENSE, something Andre Miller could mentor him with for the Knicks next 12years +
His shooting isn't like Rhondo either


At first I thought there was a chance that he could become a bust like and have concerns to be a Tyreke Evans, however, as I watched him more with the games in the CBA, prior to knowing our draft position at 4, I warmed up to him and have a different perspective as I watched him more


Also in my post about the 3 D Leaguers I think we should pick up, there are many SG/SF prospects that would fit in with his ability to penetrate/defend/shoot the 3pter
While there are not many John Wall/Westbrook type PG's with his body and actual PG skills and looks to create for others over just scoring
Lavine has to fill out his body and has a scorers mentality and not the PG skills that Mudiay has, while he has developed a decent shot towards the end of the season


There are other BIG PG's in this draft or past drafts as well but none with his physical abilities of handle, speed/quickeness/strength, first step, maybe Jerian Grant is closests and Mudiay has him beat IMO, though Grant has the better shot
Again, Mudiays body is filled out already and he could continue to work on his body for more quickness/explosiveness, which at his age is very impressive to go with his handle and willingness to pass and finish through contact


George de Paula is RAW but has a high upside as well but Mudiay is very impressive for his body and skills at his age

GustavBahler
Posts: 34101
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5/22/2015  6:21 PM
RonRon wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Using a number 4 pick on a PG who cant consistently hit a jumper concerns me. Sure there are PGs who had the same issue who turned out to be very good players, but its a big gamble with a gutted roster.

The break down talked about Mudiay's lack of shooting off the dribble. I disagree that the shots the clip highlighted were really off the dribble because Mudiay had plenty of time to stop, set, and shoot a brick. The earlier part of the breakdown where he was shooting while up in the air, in motion where closer to what I consider off the dribble. Those higlights showed promise.

Still haven't made up my mind who we should pick, but I do like Mudiay's PNR ability, his ability to see the floor, make a quick pass in motion, and his handle. The negatives in his game makes him a high risk, high reward player. With a gutted roster, don't know if thats what kind of player we should be picking at 4.

how do you feel about Westbrook?

Depends on what day you ask me, lol. Until this season I admired his skills, thought he looked for his shot too much. Thought Westbrook showed more of an all around game with Durant out. Mudiay is a couple of gears slower than Westbrook. If he wasn't I might be more inclined to see Phil take a chance on drafting him.

I think a couple of gears slower isnt really fair... but regardless the ability to drive and dish trumps pure shooting IMO, certainly for this team. We just dont have anyone who can break down a defense off the dribble. Nobody. The triangle is cute for freeing these guys for open looks at 20 footers, but for that system to really be effective you need the threat of someone who can break down the D and that is a skill Mudiay brings right out of the gate.

I see a lot of issues.. he gets out of control at times, doesnt take care of the ball at the level an NBA PG should and his jumper is pretty average. There are an equal amount of positives though. I thought the praise from Marbury was telling, as they played h2h and Marbs can flatout play. That being said I had Mudiay 4th on my prospect list, and while he's my least fav of the top 4 I have always said there is no reason he couldnt be the best player in the draft. Any of the 4 can.. they are all unique, different from each other and bring different things.

Life isnt fair Fish, J/K. Ok maybe just one gear slower. Mudiay has a lot of upside, my concern is using a high pick with the negatives he has and a close to a blank slate roster. We havent had a pick this high in eons, want Phil to get this right. We are hopefully picking a player to succeed Melo as the top dog, that is if we do keep the pick.

its tough one isnt it? You want to pick a cornerstone piece, but have to ensure you at least get a piece. Of the 4 guys I ranked for this draft I have Towns and Mudiay 3 and 4 for that reason.

But find me one scouting report that says this kid is going to bust, or has red flags...I really cant find one. I havent seen one site or report that says he's not a top 5 pick. So for whatever reason nobody has backed off this..

The higher the pick the lower the threshold for what is considered a bust IMO. Mudiay could be something special or he could turn into the second coming of Jonny Flynn. The red flags pointed out is his FG pct, 3pt shooting, FT shooting, turnovers, and his lapses in effort at times.


ALL IN MY OPINION,

Gustav, we all have different opinions, however, did you watch Westbrook play in college and his first year as a rookie?
Mudiay is far ahead Westbrook was as he had to actually transition from a combo guard to what he is today
He has a NBA BIG PG body already, not comparable with Flynn

His body is comparable to Marcus Smart's body, however, he is far advanced than him in skills and physical abilities
Mudiay is far ahead of the body and skills of some of these high pick PG's like Lavine, Exum, Smart, and is much closer to Wall and far advanced than many of such "high ceiling players" with his body type, physical abilities, and skills
Those guys have to first develop their bodies and then their skills, in which they could lose physical abilities in the process, where as Mudiay body is filled out already and he has to work on getting better along with his weakness's of shooting and playing with MEN


I actually like that he will have to prove that he is better than DeAngello Russell, giving him an incentive
We need to get him John Wall's trainer and development coaches to work on his shooting as well
I like Justice Winslow a lot however, if we can not pair him with a Jimmy Butler/Kawaii/Lebron or top notch defender, I fear he will not be enough like Iman wasn't enough
While we also have Thanasis who plays the same position as Winslow and unless we get another TOP NOTCH PG that could defend or facilitate from another position or unless Winslow becomes a PG, I don't see how we can pair him with enough defenders to make it work
If Winslow can play PG and we get another TOP NOTCH defender that could facilitate in that way, I would take my chances on a poor mans John Wall, Steve Francis, filled out Livingston being his absolute low and he has the body to play in the POST to initiate the OFFENSE, something Andre Miller could mentor him with for the Knicks next 12years +
His shooting isn't like Rhondo either

I wasn't making a comparison to Flynn as far as body type, or even his game, more about a prospect with a big upside but with his own red flags. In the end the red flags outweighed the positives in his game.

As far as Westbrook, no I didn't spend time watching him in college, the comparisons Ive read are geared more towards his time as a pro. Mudiay will never have Westbrook's speed, which makes him one of the toughest defensive assignments in the league. Doesn't mean he can't be a very good or even a great player, but without Westbrook's speed its hard for me to compare the two.

Don't want to give the impression that I believe Mudiay will turn out to be a bad pick, just a risky one from what little Ive seen and read about him. If the roster wasnt gutted, if the roster was closer to contending I would be more willing to see Phil take the risk.

nixluva
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5/22/2015  6:58 PM
Phil intends on upgrading the roster via Free Agency to put together a competitive top 6 rotation. This will likely be a much more competitive team next year. We don't have a complete starting lineup so that's going to be the focus of the $28 Mil we have to spend.

I think Mudiay at this point in his development is a little behind Russell and Winslow. It's up to Phil to determine if his upside is worth the risk. If he doesn't want to take the risk then Winslow is the Safe pick. Winslow may not have the same upside but you pretty much know what you're getting. It's a tough call. It's going to be very interesting to see how the workouts go. I can't wait.

Vmart
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5/22/2015  10:59 PM
If you watch Mudiay play he sees the floor really well. Watch some of his kick out passes and you wonder how he saw the guy there. It's as if he knows where his teammates are at all times. He thinks the game and uses his teammates as well as any PG I have seen. He puts a lot of pressure on opposing defenses with his ability to penetrate at will. He won't take long to make an impact I would not pass on this guy he is that good. His shot will get better he is a hard worker.
CrushAlot
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5/23/2015  12:10 AM
mreinman wrote:
Moonangie wrote:I am getting pretty close to sold on Mudiay. His shot can/will be fixed in the first couple of years.

Just think we need a playmaker/leader on this team. As much as I like Winslow, I do not see his upside being the same as Mudiay.

I don't know how people can just keep saying that.

shots are not that easy to fix


I read that a Spurs scout said that his shooting mechanics were good and that his shot could be fixed.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
nixluva
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5/23/2015  12:35 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Moonangie wrote:I am getting pretty close to sold on Mudiay. His shot can/will be fixed in the first couple of years.

Just think we need a playmaker/leader on this team. As much as I like Winslow, I do not see his upside being the same as Mudiay.

I don't know how people can just keep saying that.

shots are not that easy to fix


I read that a Spurs scout said that his shooting mechanics were good and that his shot could be fixed.

We have to also consider that our scouting is old and not up to date. He's been training for months now at Impact and his Trainer Joe Abunassar says he's making progress. All of these kids get with top notch programs to prepare for the combine and the Draft. Mudiay has had a long time to really work on his overall game and conditioning.

Impact Basketball

Skill Development
Individualized skill programs. Live action 1-on-1, 2-on-2, and 3-on-3. Direct replication of NBA workouts.

Strength & Conditioning
Complete biomechanical evaluation. NBA Combine athletic testing training. Body composition analysis and reconstruction. Injury prevention.

Nutrition
Individual nutrition consulation and analysis. Meal Plan Guidance. precision supplementation program for each player.

Mental Training
Media and interview training. NBA situational analysis. Draft process preparation.

Fully-integrated training system in one location
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On-site exposure to every NBA team
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fwk00
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5/23/2015  12:39 AM
RonRon wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Using a number 4 pick on a PG who cant consistently hit a jumper concerns me. Sure there are PGs who had the same issue who turned out to be very good players, but its a big gamble with a gutted roster.

The break down talked about Mudiay's lack of shooting off the dribble. I disagree that the shots the clip highlighted were really off the dribble because Mudiay had plenty of time to stop, set, and shoot a brick. The earlier part of the breakdown where he was shooting while up in the air, in motion where closer to what I consider off the dribble. Those higlights showed promise.

Still haven't made up my mind who we should pick, but I do like Mudiay's PNR ability, his ability to see the floor, make a quick pass in motion, and his handle. The negatives in his game makes him a high risk, high reward player. With a gutted roster, don't know if thats what kind of player we should be picking at 4.

how do you feel about Westbrook?

Depends on what day you ask me, lol. Until this season I admired his skills, thought he looked for his shot too much. Thought Westbrook showed more of an all around game with Durant out. Mudiay is a couple of gears slower than Westbrook. If he wasn't I might be more inclined to see Phil take a chance on drafting him.

I think a couple of gears slower isnt really fair... but regardless the ability to drive and dish trumps pure shooting IMO, certainly for this team. We just dont have anyone who can break down a defense off the dribble. Nobody. The triangle is cute for freeing these guys for open looks at 20 footers, but for that system to really be effective you need the threat of someone who can break down the D and that is a skill Mudiay brings right out of the gate.

I see a lot of issues.. he gets out of control at times, doesnt take care of the ball at the level an NBA PG should and his jumper is pretty average. There are an equal amount of positives though. I thought the praise from Marbury was telling, as they played h2h and Marbs can flatout play. That being said I had Mudiay 4th on my prospect list, and while he's my least fav of the top 4 I have always said there is no reason he couldnt be the best player in the draft. Any of the 4 can.. they are all unique, different from each other and bring different things.

Life isnt fair Fish, J/K. Ok maybe just one gear slower. Mudiay has a lot of upside, my concern is using a high pick with the negatives he has and a close to a blank slate roster. We havent had a pick this high in eons, want Phil to get this right. We are hopefully picking a player to succeed Melo as the top dog, that is if we do keep the pick.

its tough one isnt it? You want to pick a cornerstone piece, but have to ensure you at least get a piece. Of the 4 guys I ranked for this draft I have Towns and Mudiay 3 and 4 for that reason.

But find me one scouting report that says this kid is going to bust, or has red flags...I really cant find one. I havent seen one site or report that says he's not a top 5 pick. So for whatever reason nobody has backed off this..

The higher the pick the lower the threshold for what is considered a bust IMO. Mudiay could be something special or he could turn into the second coming of Jonny Flynn. The red flags pointed out is his FG pct, 3pt shooting, FT shooting, turnovers, and his lapses in effort at times.


ALL IN MY OPINION,

Gustav, we all have different opinions, however, did you watch Westbrook play in college and his first year as a rookie?
Mudiay is far ahead Westbrook was as he had to actually transition from a combo guard to what he is today
He has a NBA BIG PG body already, not comparable with Flynn

His body is comparable to Marcus Smart's body, however, he is far advanced than him in skills and physical abilities
Mudiay is far ahead of the body and skills of some of these high pick PG's like Lavine, Exum, Smart, and is much closer to Wall and far advanced than many of such "high ceiling players" with his body type, physical abilities, and skills
Those guys have to first develop their bodies and then their skills, in which they could lose physical abilities in the process, where as Mudiay body is filled out already and he has to work on getting better along with his weakness's of shooting and playing with MEN


I actually like that he will have to prove that he is better than DeAngello Russell, giving him an incentive
We need to get him John Wall's trainer and development coaches to work on his shooting as well
I like Justice Winslow a lot however, if we can not pair him with a Jimmy Butler/Kawaii/Lebron or top notch defender, I fear he will not be enough like Iman wasn't enough
While we also have Thanasis who plays the same position as Winslow and unless we get another TOP NOTCH PG that could defend or facilitate from another position or unless Winslow becomes a PG, I don't see how we can pair him with enough defenders to make it work
If Winslow can play PG and we get another TOP NOTCH defender that could facilitate in that way, I would take my chances on a poor mans John Wall, Steve Francis, filled out Livingston being his absolute low and he has the body to play in the POST to initiate the OFFENSE, something Andre Miller could mentor him with for the Knicks next 12years +
His shooting isn't like Rhondo either


At first I thought there was a chance that he could become a bust like and have concerns to be a Tyreke Evans, however, as I watched him more with the games in the CBA, prior to knowing our draft position at 4, I warmed up to him and have a different perspective as I watched him more


Also in my post about the 3 D Leaguers I think we should pick up, there are many SG/SF prospects that would fit in with his ability to penetrate/defend/shoot the 3pter
While there are not many John Wall/Westbrook type PG's with his body and actual PG skills and looks to create for others over just scoring
Lavine has to fill out his body and has a scorers mentality and not the PG skills that Mudiay has, while he has developed a decent shot towards the end of the season


There are other BIG PG's in this draft or past drafts as well but none with his physical abilities of handle, speed/quickeness/strength, first step, maybe Jerian Grant is closests and Mudiay has him beat IMO, though Grant has the better shot
Again, Mudiays body is filled out already and he could continue to work on his body for more quickness/explosiveness, which at his age is very impressive to go with his handle and willingness to pass and finish through contact


George de Paula is RAW but has a high upside as well but Mudiay is very impressive for his body and skills at his age

Great observations. The "body type" argument is a strong one. Amare Stoudamire comes to mind (obviously a different player but...) - a man-child with a similar background. I happen to think we're lucky to have an opportunity at picking this kid.

But the second wave of this draft will provide a number of solid rotation players as well but their ceiling is different than Mudiay's.

I happen to think any backcourt combination of Mudiay/Gallo/Shved, and Tenacious on the wing could be a defensive juggernaut on any given night as well. Add Middleton, Carroll, or Butler and it gets interesting.

The Case for Emmanuel Mudiay

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