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The Case for Emmanuel Mudiay
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nixluva
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5/21/2015  2:40 PM
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

In fact it might be more of a better fit since we have Melo and the 2 of them could operate in the Pinch Post 2 man game. Mudiay's ability to pass would come in handy in that case. Mudiay could set up Melo or drive. Give n Go, Drive and dish or go PnR with Melo. Phil knows that you need players who can make things happen when the defense shuts down the Triangle.

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blkexec
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5/21/2015  3:03 PM
Mudiay would help out transition offense, which is terrible. But with horses like the Greek Freak or THj, he will have some young athletes on the wings. And in half court, when they are doubling Melo, Mudiay doesn't have to hit the open jumper all the time. He has a knack for attacking the rim. Mudiay is the kind of player Phil likes to have in his system. He surrounds these types of players with spot up shooters. Plus, Mudiay knows his offense will mostly come in transition and not the triangle. So he will push the ball on every possesion. Thats the Jason Kidd or Deron Williams comparisons. So I'm warming up to Mudiay and I like the defensive potential lineups with him at the point.

As days goes by, Mudiay's stock will continue to rise. With personal workouts, his value will only go up due to his physical NBA build and length. While Russell might stay the same. I think both have equal value, just at different positions.

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RonRon
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5/21/2015  3:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  3:55 PM
4th pick isn't as good as the TOP 2 picks
However, with Russell or Mudiay, they both have TOP TIER potential, while pick 5 and after could go many different directions depending on team needs and fits

It will take time for PG's to develop as John Wall took 4-5years before he fully started to show that he was in fact a MAX player and game changer
With that said, CA understands that and that is why he doesn't want us to draft a PG

With that said, we still have to draft the player that will likely be the best player LONG TERM regardless of what CA wants
And if we do draft Mudiay, we will have to consider trading CA if a team like Houston strikes out in free agency and CA will be able to make even more money in Houston with a trade kicker and NO STATE tax, while contending right away, while Harden will continue to draw double/triple teams, allowing CA to play off the ball and shoot wide open shots like in TEAM USA, and with the players needed to cover for their DEFENSE/weakness's
Will Morey give us what we want and will they still have interest in CA should be the question, as CA will likely prefer a trade if we in fact cannot sign TOP TIER STARS this summer and draft Muddiay...
Also will Beverely being a RFA and low cap hold, they could resign him with bird rights, and then have the FULL MLE to utilize to fill in other positions, though Josh Smith and KJ McDaniels would be UFA's, but if they can convince them to take less this summer, and have their early bird rights in 2017, they could reward them with larger contracts, and another addition of B+ or more *with no STATE TAX on their side* talent with the rise of the cap of 20m in 2017 and another FULL MLE to utilize


These are the assets that could be available in which we would need a combination of assets

Terrence Jones and DMO will give us 2 BIGS that can play in the POST on rookie contracts and will be RFA in 2017 *could be kept or repackaged out with a 1st rounder trade value*
Memphis 1st rounder this summer at 18, *would like to draft Portis or Kaminski if they are available*
NYK's 2nd rounder this summer *pick 32* and next summer, along with Portlands 2017 2nd rounder
Houston owns ALL of their 1st rounders and are tradeable from 2017 and after, *as they traded this summers draft pick to Lakers*

to add up salaries
Koustas Pap *5m unguaranteed contract*
Corey Brewer *about 5m, 1year expiring that could be repackaged for at least a 2nd rouner or 2*
Fill ins with 150% rule


If we were able to pull such a move, it would help rebuild our team muck quicker and better utilize our cap space with CA's contract
Whether we sign any players this summer and/or take bad contracts to acquire draft picks, we could improve our team much better though we would have trouble attracting top TIER FA's without overpaying as many teams will have much salary space as well and a better foundation than us with more future draft picks
Then the challenge for us would be in our youth development and whether they can allow us to attract TOP TIER STAR's or B+ talents to believe we could be contenders with the salary space, competing with other teams like Lakers, rising teams, and the winning teams estasblished already...

FistOfOakley
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5/21/2015  4:28 PM
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

being kobe or jordan with the ball in their hands is a lot different than having mudiay with the ball in his hands... there's nothing to suggest that he's anywhere near the triple threat that those players are..

i think the fact that he has so much mystery behind him is inflating their idea of him... there's footage of him playing in china on youtube... he was hardly doing it all there...

nixluva
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5/21/2015  4:35 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

being kobe or jordan with the ball in their hands is a lot different than having mudiay with the ball in his hands... there's nothing to suggest that he's anywhere near the triple threat that those players are..

i think the fact that he has so much mystery behind him is inflating their idea of him... there's footage of him playing in china on youtube... he was hardly doing it all there...


Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

mreinman
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5/21/2015  4:36 PM
nixluva wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

being kobe or jordan with the ball in their hands is a lot different than having mudiay with the ball in his hands... there's nothing to suggest that he's anywhere near the triple threat that those players are..

i think the fact that he has so much mystery behind him is inflating their idea of him... there's footage of him playing in china on youtube... he was hardly doing it all there...


Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

then why don't we just keep shved and spend the pick on somebody else?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
nixluva
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5/21/2015  4:44 PM
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

being kobe or jordan with the ball in their hands is a lot different than having mudiay with the ball in his hands... there's nothing to suggest that he's anywhere near the triple threat that those players are..

i think the fact that he has so much mystery behind him is inflating their idea of him... there's footage of him playing in china on youtube... he was hardly doing it all there...


Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

then why don't we just keep shved and spend the pick on somebody else?

That may just happen, but then i'm pretty sure they think Mudiay's upside is way higher. Mudiay has the physical talent to be a lock down defender in addition to all his offense talent. Phil might just feel he doesn't need Mudiay to get what he needs at that spot and that he can get a similar talent elsewhere. This was my case for WCS being the pick.

FistOfOakley
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5/21/2015  5:14 PM
nixluva wrote:
Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

i think holding his own for his age in an international pro league is commendable... it means he can probably have some role in this league... i'm not blind to that... but i don't see any evidence that he play a sg type of role in the triangle.. he's pretty much been a prototype pnr pg like most pg's...

guys like fisher, paxson, armstrong, harper and now galloway were such good triangle guards because they played off the ball and hid their main weakness which was trying to create for themselves and others... if we're drafting mudiay to be a sg to be kobe or jordan.. that's an entirely different skillset than what he's being judged on now... and if he's a sg then he's going to have to guard other sg's which negates his whole size advantage...

shved's excelled here but he had an insane ft rate and career high 3p percentage... if mudiay can match that then he might be as good but there's nothing to suggest that he will...

JrZyHuStLa
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5/21/2015  5:27 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

i think holding his own for his age in an international pro league is commendable... it means he can probably have some role in this league... i'm not blind to that... but i don't see any evidence that he play a sg type of role in the triangle.. he's pretty much been a prototype pnr pg like most pg's...

guys like fisher, paxson, armstrong, harper and now galloway were such good triangle guards because they played off the ball and hid their main weakness which was trying to create for themselves and others... if we're drafting mudiay to be a sg to be kobe or jordan.. that's an entirely different skillset than what he's being judged on now... and if he's a sg then he's going to have to guard other sg's which negates his whole size advantage...

shved's excelled here but he had an insane ft rate and career high 3p percentage... if mudiay can match that then he might be as good but there's nothing to suggest that he will...

Why can't a 6'5" backcourt player defend a natural NBA 2 guard who is no more than 6'6"-6'7"?

There's plenty of SGs who are listed at 6'5" or under. Wade, Ellis, Beal, Harden (best SG in the league btw).

Mudiay can even possibly cover Curry and have a few inches on him.

Then you have Kobe at 6'6" and DeRozan at 6'7".

Mudiay's quickness can make up for a lost inch or two there.

CrushAlot
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5/21/2015  5:28 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

i think holding his own for his age in an international pro league is commendable... it means he can probably have some role in this league... i'm not blind to that... but i don't see any evidence that he play a sg type of role in the triangle.. he's pretty much been a prototype pnr pg like most pg's...

guys like fisher, paxson, armstrong, harper and now galloway were such good triangle guards because they played off the ball and hid their main weakness which was trying to create for themselves and others... if we're drafting mudiay to be a sg to be kobe or jordan.. that's an entirely different skillset than what he's being judged on now... and if he's a sg then he's going to have to guard other sg's which negates his whole size advantage...

shved's excelled here but he had an insane ft rate and career high 3p percentage... if mudiay can match that then he might be as good but there's nothing to suggest that he will...

Some role in this league is not something you hear used to guys compared to John Wall, Deron Williams, and Jason Kidd. It also isn't something you hear about a guy that is projected to go three or four in a draft where the top end is considered incredibly talented. It isn't something that you generally hear said about the 2nd or 3rd rated prep prospect coming out of high school in an incredibly talented class. Not sure why you are so down on the guy.
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nixluva
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5/21/2015  7:00 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Come on man the Kid was 18 playing if Freaking CHINA! I can't begin to express how difficult that would be for the average young player to deal with. He actually played well under the circumstances.

Further he wouldn't have to be Kobe or Jordan to be effective in that role. Shved put up the best performances of his career in that role and it's the exact role Mudiay would be put in.

i think holding his own for his age in an international pro league is commendable... it means he can probably have some role in this league... i'm not blind to that... but i don't see any evidence that he play a sg type of role in the triangle.. he's pretty much been a prototype pnr pg like most pg's...

guys like fisher, paxson, armstrong, harper and now galloway were such good triangle guards because they played off the ball and hid their main weakness which was trying to create for themselves and others... if we're drafting mudiay to be a sg to be kobe or jordan.. that's an entirely different skillset than what he's being judged on now... and if he's a sg then he's going to have to guard other sg's which negates his whole size advantage...

shved's excelled here but he had an insane ft rate and career high 3p percentage... if mudiay can match that then he might be as good but there's nothing to suggest that he will...

Some role in this league is not something you hear used to guys compared to John Wall, Deron Williams, and Jason Kidd. It also isn't something you hear about a guy that is projected to go three or four in a draft where the top end is considered incredibly talented. It isn't something that you generally hear said about the 2nd or 3rd rated prep prospect coming out of high school in an incredibly talented class. Not sure why you are so down on the guy.

It's becoming trendy to diss Mudiay. Since he doesn't have the college record to back him up, he's an easy target. I just think it's a bit off base since scouts who have actually followed him since High School are saying he's a legit top tier talent. IMO it's nuts to downplay the idea of a kid going to CHINA of all places and playing against grown men and former NBA players with a 24 second clock and pro 3pt line etc. People tend to disregard foreign pro leagues IMO cuz they don't have a frame of reference.
CrushAlot
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5/21/2015  7:28 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Getting the BRIGGS seal of approval gives me a bit more confidence in Mudiay. I like Winslow a lot, but his upside is solid-good starter, where as Mudiay has maybe all star potential. I still think the 76ers draft him.
Yeah I really like Mudiay. That article Nix posted and Briggs scouting report just reinforce that. He reminds me of Jason Kidd when he first came into the league. Big, strong, fast with great court vision. Kidd couldn't shoot the three. I think he is the best option and will be at least the third best player in the draft when it is looked at historically.

How many times was Kidd traded. I think Kidd is great but would the Knicks reap the benefits or will they be Dallas#1 and phx. Also, watching Rondo makes me think a young Kidd would struggle in this era. The only thing that could save him would be his defense, maybe.


Yeah but that wasn't based on Kidd's play it was based on his feuding with teammates, his coach and later for hitting his wife. I don't think Kidd's talent could ever be questioned. Kidd still burns bridges. He forced his way out of Brooklyn and destroyed his friendship with Frank.
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PhilinLA
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5/21/2015  7:54 PM
I like Mudiay or Russell if the two bigs are gone. I don't think they should screw around with trade downs or any surprise #4's.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
CrushAlot
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5/21/2015  8:25 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

being kobe or jordan with the ball in their hands is a lot different than having mudiay with the ball in his hands... there's nothing to suggest that he's anywhere near the triple threat that those players are..

i think the fact that he has so much mystery behind him is inflating their idea of him... there's footage of him playing in china on youtube... he was hardly doing it all there...

Sam Vecenie ‏@Sam_Vecenie · 10h10 hours ago
It’s kind of weird that people are making Emmanuel Mudiay out to be a mystery. This isn’t the case at all for NBA people.

You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
nixluva
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5/21/2015  10:40 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:
martin wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:he likes big guards but not big guards who have spotty jumpers who need the ball in their hands... he's not a guy who can play off the ball...

The lead guards in Phil's systems have never played off the ball, so I don't know why that would matter. Both Kobe and Jordan liked and wanted the ball in their hands, so I don't know why Mudiay couldn't be that same player but more of a PG.

being kobe or jordan with the ball in their hands is a lot different than having mudiay with the ball in his hands... there's nothing to suggest that he's anywhere near the triple threat that those players are..

i think the fact that he has so much mystery behind him is inflating their idea of him... there's footage of him playing in china on youtube... he was hardly doing it all there...

Sam Vecenie ‏@Sam_Vecenie · 10h10 hours ago
It’s kind of weird that people are making Emmanuel Mudiay out to be a mystery. This isn’t the case at all for NBA people.

Mudiay was a top prospect from the very beginning. It's only because he's been shown in Mock's to go to NY that now all of a sudden people want to kick dirt on him. It makes for a better negative story if there's no top tier prospect available at #4 where we pick. So just start knocking the guys in that range. If Winslow was rumored to be the Knicks choice there would be a lot of negative stuff popping up on him. Same ole Sam ole.

Panos
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5/21/2015  10:49 PM
I dunno. I get a super bad feeling about Mudiay.
Mystery man who was injured his one year out of high school.
I don't see how people are including him in the "4 man draft" as if he's a lock to succeed.
I'd be very careful
nixluva
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5/21/2015  11:05 PM
Panos wrote:I dunno. I get a super bad feeling about Mudiay.
Mystery man who was injured his one year out of high school.
I don't see how people are including him in the "4 man draft" as if he's a lock to succeed.
I'd be very careful

Kyrie Irving had a similar story but scouts know how good he was. This kid was a top high school prospect that could've gone straight into the NBA in the old days.

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5/21/2015  11:05 PM
It has more to do with a 12 game sample and his undeveloped shooting than the Knicks picking #4. Harrison Barnes, Jared Sulinger, and many others were #1 or very highly ranked recruits that dropped because of their play and limitations. Who knows if Mudiay falls into that category but there is the possibility
nixluva
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5/21/2015  11:11 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:It has more to do with a 12 game sample and his undeveloped shooting than the Knicks picking #4. Harrison Barnes, Jared Sulinger, and many others were #1 or very highly ranked recruits that dropped because of their play and limitations. Who knows if Mudiay falls into that category but there is the possibility

Thing is Mudiay was rated high even with his suspect shooting because he was so good in other aspects and he's a 6-5 pure PG. The streaky shooting is something lots of young guards deal with since Mudiay can drive by his man so easily he didn't focus on his shooting. Now he is.

nixluva
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5/21/2015  11:45 PM
Watching how Harden is able to get to the basket at will makes me think about having Mudiay in the 4th qtr of games. It was the reason I started this thread. Sometimes you need that big guard that can knife through great D and make things happen. If Mudiay can improve his shot he could be the star guard we've needed.

Melo can be in that Jordan/Kobe role. Mudiay has a chance to be that kind of threat. NOT SAYING HE'S MJ OR KOBE!

The Case for Emmanuel Mudiay

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