smackeddog wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:That was a STEAL of a trade. Absolute steal of steals for a restricted #1 pick in the future??? Maybe Kanter doesnt quite have the lateral quickness for our team? Maybe his 23-12 potential is just not enough? We need a stiff like Omer Asik!

What a bruising team they have Kanter Adams Mcgary--the guys i the best GM in basketball. We shouldve spent 12 mm on him but he would not do what Dolan says--he would try to make us win!.

So as well as trading our 2018 first rounder for another pick in this draft, we should also have traded another first rounder for Kanter?

It's too early to say it's a steal of a trade for OKC- their cap number is already $79mil (they extended Collinson, which for some reason isn't shown on their hoops hype salaries) for next season- can they afford to near max out Kanter? Would they match a high offer for him? Really not sure- they'd be over $85mil. Maybe they would take a one year hit with the cap going up in 2016, but thats a lot of luxury tax for next year.

I don't want him anyways- no defense and no passing

Im sure you are smarter than Sam Presti--who do you want for our post next year?

BRIGGS wrote:....if so how can anyone tell me he's not a max player.....

Enes Kanter CANNOT DEFEND THE RIM.

The Knicks will likely carryover Melo, Calderon, THJr, Early and Galloway. Aside from Galloway, adding Kanter to that mix, how are th Knicks going to stop anyone on defense? You keep pushing points and rebounds as if they are be all/end all without addressing the defensive issues. But what's the point of telling you that Kanter is a negative defender, who might be still very young, has been in the league long enough to show he will never be anything but a negative sum defender, when you just refuse to even address that issue at all? You only hear what you want to hear Briggs.

Kanter has a poor understanding of how to use his leverage and size. He has poor defensive timing and instincts, and as he ages, all of that will be markedly worse, not better, as his athleticism, whatever he's got, begins to fade.

Speaking of points and rebounds, his circumstances with OKC ( Durant is out) is not something that might translate to another team. Durant is hurt, Ibaka is a shell of his former self, they shipped Reggie Jackson out of town. He's getting more burn because he's getting more volume, but that doesn't speak to efficiency. He comes to any other team, he's not going to get this many 2nd option looks while other teams literally triple team Russell Westbrook.

If you are an NBA big who can't defend the rim and you don't have an above average CONSISTENT three ball ( Kanter seems to be working on his three ball shot, but it's nothing set in stone now) then you better bring something else to the table. Kanter profiles more of a power forward who will naturally clog the floor spacing. Why should the Knicks keep overpaying power forwards who can't defend and truly stretch the floor? Because they haven't tried that route in the last five years?

He might be a max player to a team desperate for scoring above all else. (Pacers) He might be seen as a max player to a team moving in an opposite direction of what's practical ( Lakers) He might be seen a max player to a team that clearly might try any crazy damn thing it can conceive ( Kings) But again, this is the troubling part of trying to predict Kanters market this soon. We don't know who these teams will draft, what pieces will move in other trades that open up or close jobs in the front court and we don't know how playoff gleam or rust will impact Kanter's market perception.

THERE'S A REASON KANTER IS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I've said that before about a ton of free agents over time here. There's a reason their original drafting teams didn't move heaven and earth to lock them up sooner/faster. Even with Gobert in the picture, if Kanter was a plus asset for the Jazz, they wouldn't just let him dangle on the market like they did and then traded him as such.

You also seem to ignore the issue that a player like Robin Lopez, who might give you 12/10 a night, might not give you your projected ( and I'll say grossly over optimistic counting stats ) numbers for Kanter, he might actually be more useful across an actual NBA game because his defense, passing, and efficiency will more than offset the counting stats tradeoff.

Enes Kanter will likely be perceived a max player by teams that the Knicks don't want to emulate.

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:....if so how can anyone tell me he's not a max player.....

Enes Kanter CANNOT DEFEND THE RIM.

The Knicks will likely carryover Melo, Calderon, THJr, Early and Galloway. Aside from Galloway, adding Kanter to that mix, how are th Knicks going to stop anyone on defense? You keep pushing points and rebounds as if they are be all/end all without addressing the defensive issues. But what's the point of telling you that Kanter is a negative defender, who might be still very young, has been in the league long enough to show he will never be anything but a negative sum defender, when you just refuse to even address that issue at all? You only hear what you want to hear Briggs.

Kanter has a poor understanding of how to use his leverage and size. He has poor defensive timing and instincts, and as he ages, all of that will be markedly worse, not better, as his athleticism, whatever he's got, begins to fade.

Speaking of points and rebounds, his circumstances with OKC ( Durant is out) is not something that might translate to another team. Durant is hurt, Ibaka is a shell of his former self, they shipped Reggie Jackson out of town. He's getting more burn because he's getting more volume, but that doesn't speak to efficiency. He comes to any other team, he's not going to get this many 2nd option looks while other teams literally triple team Russell Westbrook.

If you are an NBA big who can't defend the rim and you don't have an above average CONSISTENT three ball ( Kanter seems to be working on his three ball shot, but it's nothing set in stone now) then you better bring something else to the table. Kanter profiles more of a power forward who will naturally clog the floor spacing. Why should the Knicks keep overpaying power forwards who can't defend and truly stretch the floor? Because they haven't tried that route in the last five years?

He might be a max player to a team desperate for scoring above all else. (Pacers) He might be seen as a max player to a team moving in an opposite direction of what's practical ( Lakers) He might be seen a max player to a team that clearly might try any crazy damn thing it can conceive ( Kings) But again, this is the troubling part of trying to predict Kanters market this soon. We don't know who these teams will draft, what pieces will move in other trades that open up or close jobs in the front court and we don't know how playoff gleam or rust will impact Kanter's market perception.

THERE'S A REASON KANTER IS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I've said that before about a ton of free agents over time here. There's a reason their original drafting teams didn't move heaven and earth to lock them up sooner/faster. Even with Gobert in the picture, if Kanter was a plus asset for the Jazz, they wouldn't just let him dangle on the market like they did and then traded him as such.

You also seem to ignore the issue that a player like Robin Lopez, who might give you 12/10 a night, might not give you your projected ( and I'll say grossly over optimistic counting stats ) numbers for Kanter, he might actually be more useful across an actual NBA game because his defense, passing, and efficiency will more than offset the counting stats tradeoff.

Enes Kanter will likely be perceived a max player by teams that the Knicks don't want to emulate.

Its very strange anyone says something definitive about a 22 years old. You're no good and you have no chance at changing--you'd make a great school counselor!

Since Enes has been with OKC he's had games of 4 assists and 5 assists--that tells me he certainly can pass and his coaches must continue to encourage passing of a similar variety if you can do it 2 times in 10 games--you have the ability to do it every game and Im sure he will get that. He hasnt shown to be a shot blocker but tell me how can a 22 year old cannot be taught defensive fundamentals in the offseason? Hes 6-11 260 with a 7-2 wingspan and he plays aggressively--exactly why cant he transform his defensive game? Hes got his entire career ahead of him. Defense is fundamental and effort--he gives good effort--so the thought process is he should be fine defensively with coaching.

Its MUCH easier for nBA teams to find the Robin Lopez type than the Lamarcus Aldridge--thats why he gets 17mma year. The Knicks are limited to getting better by the availability of the talent. Like Is aid before there is no magic player that is taking less to come here. We have to deal with what is and work from there.

BRIGGS wrote:Anyone actually watching him play--if so how can anyone tell me he's not a max player. His ball-handling skills have been shown off the two games I have caught--something I wasn't aware that he even had. Yes this 22 year old 7 foot "beast" can handle the ball from baseline to baseline. Hes been an animal inside rebounds everything and is an obvious 22-24 10-12 50% 5-4. Exactly what free agent that is REMOTELY plausible to acquire--is better than Kanter--Id like someone to name 1 person.

Also take this into account--we have not 1 player signed next year in the post--not 1. Aiming at Kanter would allow us to pursue Towns and Stein in the draft--the latter which could be a trade that nets us valuable additional assets.

Some of these comments are really strange--like the Knicks can dictate who they will get and at what price. I think Dolan at some point will simply look at some of these numbers and say get me a 20-10 post player and stop with the bullsht. IF OKC wanted Kanter--alone that is more of a endorsmenet than any fan or Knick management can provide. Simply OKC Presti>is better than anyone else.

some of us actually have been watching him for a while and have not just been introduced to him.

For the most part, he has been pretty inefficient and hates (HATES) to pass. And, cant really play defense, so I can tell you that he is not nearly a max player in my eyes.

You are gonna give him max money based on 12 games where his TS is 5 points higher than his career average? And you want to be our GM????

It may pay to step off the ledge and see how he finishes out the season before we blow our load on him.

mreinman wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:his offense isn't even that efficient... right now it's bordering on passible i think he's around .530 TS..

for OKC its super efficient but for his career it has not been efficient.

so do we max out a guy for his play over 12 games or do look at his full resume?

With Jerome James we used a 4 game sample!

BRIGGS wrote:That was a STEAL of a trade. Absolute steal of steals for a restricted #1 pick in the future??? Maybe Kanter doesnt quite have the lateral quickness for our team? Maybe his 23-12 potential is just not enough? We need a stiff like Omer Asik!

What a bruising team they have Kanter Adams Mcgary--the guys i the best GM in basketball. We shouldve spent 12 mm on him but he would not do what Dolan says--he would try to make us win!.

Briggs - I think we find out what we draft - then we make our list.
.
To me, if we luck out and get OK4 or Towns, we focus max dollars on the backcourt - maybe Dragic.

If we get Russell or Mudiay, you work bigs - so Monroe, Deandre Jordan, etc

franco12 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:That was a STEAL of a trade. Absolute steal of steals for a restricted #1 pick in the future??? Maybe Kanter doesnt quite have the lateral quickness for our team? Maybe his 23-12 potential is just not enough? We need a stiff like Omer Asik!

What a bruising team they have Kanter Adams Mcgary--the guys i the best GM in basketball. We shouldve spent 12 mm on him but he would not do what Dolan says--he would try to make us win!.

Briggs - I think we find out what we draft - then we make our list.
.
To me, if we luck out and get OK4 or Towns, we focus max dollars on the backcourt - maybe Dragic.

If we get Russell or Mudiay, you work bigs - so Monroe, Deandre Jordan, etc

You are always a cool dude franco--absolutely agree with sentiment that almost anythings spoken prior to draft equals to soon. I highly doubt with a that either dragic(Miami gave up 2 number 1 picks and own Bird rights) and D Jordan--absolute maximum salary by Clippers for 5 years no brainer for them are coming to the Knicks however. If we do draft Towns or Okafor--this is my personal avenue because OKC payroll is too high and I think this player is just touching his personal potential yet producing big #s for a good team. As my son would say hes a beast in the making.

RonRon wrote:Briggs, Kanter could be a decent player for the right team dependent on the system and other talents around him

Utah has been on fire since they traded him and started Gobert who has is McGee 2.0 on steriods with his size/lenght/athleticism, with Favors/Gobert being the better combination of FIT with the rest of the team and BLOWING out other teams

While Westbrook has been getting triple doubles and getting all the attention so Kanter could score in multiple ways, while Ibaka has the ability to cover Kanter's weakness and be the 3rd/4th man at best when Durant returns
Without Ibaka and Kanter gets exposed and is #'s could go from BIG to NOTHING

For the same reason you think we shouldn't overpay to acquire Draymond Green who is actually a leader and is a good 1v1 defender and team defender, who's impact on DEFENSE would have more of a impact compared to Kanter
Draymond Green without Curry/Klay

Without Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka, Kanter isn't a TOP 3 talent, it depends on the system and other talents around him though

It really depends on Phil's plan and vision to build a team this year or admit it will be a couple year project, if CA will be a part of us moving foward or not, if we are going to overpay for talents this year?
If we can get steals this year or not in FA....
I think Ajinca could be the better plan moving foward, depending on who we draft and which free agents we target, in addition to the above
What will Ajinca's price tag be, if Monroe goes to another team, I think Stan Van Gundy will be willing to throw a HUGE amount of money at Ajinca for a Drummond/Ajinca combo, sine he seems to love to shoot 3's with versatile PF/C's through out his coaching career

good post RonRon.

I think that I have jumped on the Draymond Green bandwagon.

mreinman wrote:

RonRon wrote:Briggs, Kanter could be a decent player for the right team dependent on the system and other talents around him

Utah has been on fire since they traded him and started Gobert who has is McGee 2.0 on steriods with his size/lenght/athleticism, with Favors/Gobert being the better combination of FIT with the rest of the team and BLOWING out other teams

While Westbrook has been getting triple doubles and getting all the attention so Kanter could score in multiple ways, while Ibaka has the ability to cover Kanter's weakness and be the 3rd/4th man at best when Durant returns
Without Ibaka and Kanter gets exposed and is #'s could go from BIG to NOTHING

For the same reason you think we shouldn't overpay to acquire Draymond Green who is actually a leader and is a good 1v1 defender and team defender, who's impact on DEFENSE would have more of a impact compared to Kanter
Draymond Green without Curry/Klay

Without Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka, Kanter isn't a TOP 3 talent, it depends on the system and other talents around him though

It really depends on Phil's plan and vision to build a team this year or admit it will be a couple year project, if CA will be a part of us moving foward or not, if we are going to overpay for talents this year?
If we can get steals this year or not in FA....
I think Ajinca could be the better plan moving foward, depending on who we draft and which free agents we target, in addition to the above
What will Ajinca's price tag be, if Monroe goes to another team, I think Stan Van Gundy will be willing to throw a HUGE amount of money at Ajinca for a Drummond/Ajinca combo, sine he seems to love to shoot 3's with versatile PF/C's through out his coaching career

good post RonRon.

I think that I have jumped on the Draymond Green bandwagon.

I think Ron makes some good points except for he Ibaka one. Kanter has been peforming well even without Ibaka in the line up and Durant has not really played with Kanter. Did he get injured before or after Kanter? I do think that some of his success could be contributed to Westbrook. One thing Utah lacked is great guard play. It is also good to see him work well on offense with Adams, a player who doesn't stretch the floor like Ibaka does but he does do similar things as Ibaka on defense.

I would love to see Kanter's player tracking numbers for OKC and see if there is a difference.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

RonRon wrote:Briggs, Kanter could be a decent player for the right team dependent on the system and other talents around him

Utah has been on fire since they traded him and started Gobert who has is McGee 2.0 on steriods with his size/lenght/athleticism, with Favors/Gobert being the better combination of FIT with the rest of the team and BLOWING out other teams

While Westbrook has been getting triple doubles and getting all the attention so Kanter could score in multiple ways, while Ibaka has the ability to cover Kanter's weakness and be the 3rd/4th man at best when Durant returns
Without Ibaka and Kanter gets exposed and is #'s could go from BIG to NOTHING

For the same reason you think we shouldn't overpay to acquire Draymond Green who is actually a leader and is a good 1v1 defender and team defender, who's impact on DEFENSE would have more of a impact compared to Kanter
Draymond Green without Curry/Klay

Without Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka, Kanter isn't a TOP 3 talent, it depends on the system and other talents around him though

It really depends on Phil's plan and vision to build a team this year or admit it will be a couple year project, if CA will be a part of us moving foward or not, if we are going to overpay for talents this year?
If we can get steals this year or not in FA....
I think Ajinca could be the better plan moving foward, depending on who we draft and which free agents we target, in addition to the above
What will Ajinca's price tag be, if Monroe goes to another team, I think Stan Van Gundy will be willing to throw a HUGE amount of money at Ajinca for a Drummond/Ajinca combo, sine he seems to love to shoot 3's with versatile PF/C's through out his coaching career

good post RonRon.

I think that I have jumped on the Draymond Green bandwagon.

I think Ron makes some good points except for he Ibaka one. Kanter has been peforming well even without Ibaka in the line up and Durant has not really played with Kanter. Did he get injured before or after Kanter? I do think that some of his success could be contributed to Westbrook. One thing Utah lacked is great guard play. It is also good to see him work well on offense with Adams, a player who doesn't stretch the floor like Ibaka does but he does do similar things as Ibaka on defense.

I would love to see Kanter's player tracking numbers for OKC and see if there is a difference.

The point I was trying to make was that NUMBERS does not translate to Win's effectiveness by themsevles and sometimes is overlooked..

The thing is the BIG numbers did not always translate to WINS despite triple doubles on top of that by Westbrook
While with Ibaka, it did translate to more wins while Kanter's numbers were inconsistent

Also with a healthy Durant, Westbook and Ibaka both put AMAZING numbers but not nearly as many wins when together
So that is my point when they are clearly the better team when Durant is on the floor together, just an example of how NUMBERS/STAT's can be misleading when using it to anaylze talent
Despite that HUGE numbers Westbrook and Ibaka puts up without Durant, especially with Ibaka not being as nearl the same player consistently with less OFF touches when Durant is there

While Westbrook/Cousins both are TOP FANTASY talents that could put HUGE numbers but doesn't translate to wins a lot of those times, same with CA though his effectiveness and ability to make players better is even less than the other 2 and is much older with injury/age concerns in addition to almost higher than 50% + higher salary to them, especially with a salary cap

While both Curry and Harden are probably #1 ranked higher than those 2 for MVP votings as their taletns translates to wins and opens up things for other teams

With Lebron and Irving, someone is going to have to learn to take the back seat if they are going to work effectively/efficiently together, while both feel they have the green light and should be the #1's of their team