jrodmc wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:The big issue for is what position he is able to play. Not sure he can play significant minutes defending at SF- he is going to be worn out chasing certain SFs. He should be more comfortable dealing with stretch 4s on D, and his lower body is strong enough for him to hold his own down in the block.

I know he is injured, but I thought he started getting his shots blocked more frequently last year, too, and lets face it, the refs seem to give him little respect when he goes to the basket and there is contact.

His future position has to influence future FA signings and perhaps draft strategies, IMO.

he's always been a tweener on defense, it's been one of the major problems in his game his entire nba career. this flaw cannot be a hindrance to building a contender as he ages and starts breaking down... he'll be exposed in the playoffs and the team compromised. that's the other side of the "he's the most versatile scorer in the league" coin.

I don't know of any teams that start rebuilding around

A 30yr old 1-way player, who's even 1 dimensional in his 1-way play

If that even makes any sense

You keep saying things like this as if it actually has some meaning. The Knicks are not actually building around Melo as the centerpiece. He's a Part of the Core, but he's not going to be the sole focus of the team. That's the entire focus of Phil's philosophy. It won't be about one guy. As i've said over and over, Melo is one player out of 15 and for this team to be successful we need quality beyond just one player. The idea is to build a team that can win even if Melo was out for a stretch of time. Phil has to build a good overall team period. Melo is only one part of the puzzle.

It's not a very difficult thing to understand so I have to assume that you and others who keep pushing this crap are just being obtuse. You know damn well that it's entirely possible to build a good team regardless of Melo's presence on the roster. It starts with a good draft. Good free agent signings and continuing to develop prospects. This is no different than it is for any team so why are the Knicks somehow exempt from being able to put a good team together?

If Melo could be on a team that won 54 games and got to the WCF's, then it just proves that it's not impossible to put a team together around him that can win. Billups, Nene, Kenyon and JR isn't so spectacular a group that we can't put together a better core of talent. The talent level of that core isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

I was making a very astute observation

No need for you to be rude and belligerent

Once again the league does not stay static as we rebuild

Melo's cocoon has rotted from the inside out

There will be no butterfly to take flight

Even tkf never sounded this stupid
while calling himself astute.

Melo's the first of hopefully two or three major starphilques. After years of IT and LarryBoy and Curry/Marbles, I have never understood the Melohate.

Melo should be viewed more positively because guys like Marbury and Curry were bad? Why? Those rosters are long gone and have nothing to do with our current situation.

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:alot of folks here are pretty stupid about melo. yeah, we gave him a little too much money, but i think he'll be solid to build around. not many teams vying for the #1 lotto pick can say they have a 28ppg/7rpg guy ready to go for next year. between melo, a top draft pick and FA, i think we are set up nicely.

Certainly not a perfect example but its a version of what san antonio once had. I'm not worried about what position Carmelo guards rather I'd like to build a team that has the ability to score 120 yet also plays a team style of d rather than focusing on individualistic skills. Carmelo after knee repair will likely come back 15 pds lighter. I would let him guard4-3-2 in a team concept

I'm not sure if everyone missed this point.

San Antonio was in this position years ago with David Robinson. They got the #1 pick after a dismal season and drafted duncan. The Knicks are in the exact same position right now. Also a certain rookie coach was just planting his seeds in coach pop. We totally need to be be positive because we ate at the bottom now, but we could seriously set ourselves up to own the next decade of basketball.

The Spurs were really bad because David Robinson was out all season. We're really bad with Melo playing. The Spurs basically added two hall-of-famers in one off-season. The odds of adding even one - let alone two - hall of famers this off-season are remarkably low (for any team). It's an entirely different situation.

When are the teams from 1998 the same as they are in 2015

But since we want to roll back to memory lane

How come when we had a

- lottery lottery pick in 2008 and 2009 then

- cap space to follow in 2010 then

- a 1st rounder in 2011 plus cap space

It didn't make us a real threat or our relevancy was short lived

Why are we now the worse team in basketball so soon

Once again the nixluvas and the likes are acting as if we're going to win 54gms next yr

When the same ilk of fans felt the same this year without what's on deck at this time

jrodmc wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:The big issue for is what position he is able to play. Not sure he can play significant minutes defending at SF- he is going to be worn out chasing certain SFs. He should be more comfortable dealing with stretch 4s on D, and his lower body is strong enough for him to hold his own down in the block.

I know he is injured, but I thought he started getting his shots blocked more frequently last year, too, and lets face it, the refs seem to give him little respect when he goes to the basket and there is contact.

His future position has to influence future FA signings and perhaps draft strategies, IMO.

he's always been a tweener on defense, it's been one of the major problems in his game his entire nba career. this flaw cannot be a hindrance to building a contender as he ages and starts breaking down... he'll be exposed in the playoffs and the team compromised. that's the other side of the "he's the most versatile scorer in the league" coin.

I don't know of any teams that start rebuilding around

A 30yr old 1-way player, who's even 1 dimensional in his 1-way play

If that even makes any sense

You keep saying things like this as if it actually has some meaning. The Knicks are not actually building around Melo as the centerpiece. He's a Part of the Core, but he's not going to be the sole focus of the team. That's the entire focus of Phil's philosophy. It won't be about one guy. As i've said over and over, Melo is one player out of 15 and for this team to be successful we need quality beyond just one player. The idea is to build a team that can win even if Melo was out for a stretch of time. Phil has to build a good overall team period. Melo is only one part of the puzzle.

It's not a very difficult thing to understand so I have to assume that you and others who keep pushing this crap are just being obtuse. You know damn well that it's entirely possible to build a good team regardless of Melo's presence on the roster. It starts with a good draft. Good free agent signings and continuing to develop prospects. This is no different than it is for any team so why are the Knicks somehow exempt from being able to put a good team together?

If Melo could be on a team that won 54 games and got to the WCF's, then it just proves that it's not impossible to put a team together around him that can win. Billups, Nene, Kenyon and JR isn't so spectacular a group that we can't put together a better core of talent. The talent level of that core isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

I was making a very astute observation

No need for you to be rude and belligerent

Once again the league does not stay static as we rebuild

Melo's cocoon has rotted from the inside out

There will be no butterfly to take flight

Even tkf never sounded this stupid
while calling himself astute.

Melo's the first of hopefully two or three major starphilques. After years of IT and LarryBoy and Curry/Marbles, I have never understood the Melohate.

On the original topic from Briggs your 100% right. Melo will be a nice piece moving forward as this thing is built the right way. The proplem is the guys here who dont like him are so black and white and polarizing he's not a topic that can be discussed.

You have at least 3 guys leading the charge here who are under different screen names after being booted for whatever got them booted, but knowing Martin and Andrew its usually as simple as they were so insufferable it was just see ya.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:You keep saying things like this as if it actually has some meaning. The Knicks are not actually building around Melo as the centerpiece. He's a Part of the Core, but he's not going to be the sole focus of the team. That's the entire focus of Phil's philosophy.

1) The Knicks are paying Melo about 40 percent of their total cap space. Forty percent.

FORTY PERCENT.

Imagine your workplace. If you were paid 40 PERCENT of the available funds to cover all salaries, you and your workmates would not all be equal. It would be Nixluva and the Pips. Either you are the most integral person in said workplace, or you have Polaroids of the CEO licking an elephants balls covered in grape jam and are extorting him.

At some litmus point, the salary cap is going to dictate who MUST be the primary player for said franchise, whether they are doing the job or not.

2) Every time Melo has a coach that doesn't give him what he wants or doesn't highlight him as the feature player, said coach gets the boot. To me that says he's the sole focus of the team

3) No one in the franchise holds Melo accountable for his lack of leadership, failures in moving off the ball, poor passing, selfish/carefree defense, lack of conditioning, consistently saying stupid things in the press, poor shot selection. Dude, when you can get away with all that FOR YEARS and make the MOST MONEY, you are clearly the sole focus of the team

4) If there is a player who can actually help the Knicks but has taken the spotlight and attention away from Melo or Melo simply can't act like a leader enough to get along with them, and those players are immediately jettisoned. Then that means Melo is the sole focus of the team

5) When your aging team president isn't putting on his Depends and sipping on some Ensure, is trying to trade everyone on the roster but you, in the offseason, you are sole focus of the team.

As usual, I have no idea what Briggs is talking about. Three games don't wipe out 12 years of history of a player's legacy. I guess it's just Brigg's methodology ( i.e. if a player has a couple of good games, then the Knicks must trade for him and give up future assets for him and give him a gigantic contract or if this college player looks good for a stretch, then he must be the apple of the Knicks eye until the next prospect breaks out. Briggs makes Larry Brown's classic reputation of a short memory and impulsiveness seem almost rational. )

Melo has shown for 12 seasons that Melo does what is best for Melo, or what he thinks is best for him.

If hes playing more team oriented now, more likely he is hurt and not wanting to aggravate his injury or he's faking hurt in a game of wills with Zen Master ( i.e. who can be blamed for this season) and trying not to hurt his branding by trying when he's pumping to the media how he needs to be shut down for the year.

When you sign a FIVE YEAR CONTRACT and you say YOU ARE HURT AND NEED TO BE SHUT DOWN but you SELECTIVELY PLAY in FEATURE GAMES GARNERING A NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE and everyone in the sports world says it's obvious you are waiting to PLAY IN THE ALL STAR GAME for your BRANDING before you shut it down, you are acting like the sole focus. A player like that, if he was really hurt, is risking the next four years of his ability to help his team for nothing other than branding/marketing appeal in his own mind. That kind of move is an act of someone who cares more about being the center of attention/sole focus than thinking about what's best for the team.

We don't need Melo's salary in cap space this offseason. Without him we'd be stuck in limbo because we'd have the cap space but no one would want to sign for a young or empty team. We have no draft pick in 2016, so thats another offseason of cap space we couldn't use. After the third year (2017) its cba renegotiation time and likely we get an amnesty clause, so if he's a problem by then we amnesty him.

I don't think from what I read he is all that hurt. GUys play hurt all the time. He might need some surgery and better to do it in March than in May.
Is he risking furhter injury? I have not seen his medical chart.

If he sits out he is called selfish. If he plays he is called selfish.

NBA is in NY and Nets are crap with no allstars, and Knicks having an epically bad time of it. Melo should play.

The fact we have gone the route of tank vs starphuch patch job in the face of this allstar embarrassment is a testimony the culture has changed!!!

Whining about Mozgov and how much better JR/Shump look with a trio of allstars, one of which is the best player on the Planet today who on top of that, is a faciliator who elevates his teammates is irrelevant!

Guess what, Melo is not Lebron!!! JR and Shump are role players. Here they were part of our core. They were our modern Eisly and Shandon!!!! Role players asked to play primetime.

smackeddog wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:The big issue for is what position he is able to play. Not sure he can play significant minutes defending at SF- he is going to be worn out chasing certain SFs. He should be more comfortable dealing with stretch 4s on D, and his lower body is strong enough for him to hold his own down in the block.

I know he is injured, but I thought he started getting his shots blocked more frequently last year, too, and lets face it, the refs seem to give him little respect when he goes to the basket and there is contact.

His future position has to influence future FA signings and perhaps draft strategies, IMO.

he's always been a tweener on defense, it's been one of the major problems in his game his entire nba career. this flaw cannot be a hindrance to building a contender as he ages and starts breaking down... he'll be exposed in the playoffs and the team compromised. that's the other side of the "he's the most versatile scorer in the league" coin.

I don't know of any teams that start rebuilding around

A 30yr old 1-way player, who's even 1 dimensional in his 1-way play

If that even makes any sense

Boston retooled using a 30 year old Paul Pierce as their corner stone. Not really much different- they traded for KG and Allen, and put them beside their drafted players, we're aiming to sign some good free agents and put them beside our top pick.

Boston traded their #5 pick

For Ray Allen and Big Baby

Which got K.G. to sign here

By this example our Top 3 at worse Top 5 pick gets traded for who

Then who is the secondary big time signing afterwards

And while you're racking you're brain playing mad scientist with the above

Find a way to get us Rondo, Tony Allen, Kendrick Perkins low first to lottery talent too

newyorknewyork wrote:Melo isn't an emotional leader or an intangible dirty work type of guy. He is what he is which is one if the toughest covers in the league. A good team consist of players that cover each others weaknesses. Rather then depending on one guy to be a teams everthing. Derek Fisher was a role player and never made 10mil per season. But was one of the leadership figures on the champiobship Lakers team. Our draft pick should be our talent grabber while some of the money should go to a 3rd talent. The rest of the team should be about. Leadership, hard work, professionalism but guys who are contagious with it.

listen you make a great, valid, inarguable point. good teams manage to find ways to cover weaknesses of one another (and enhance strengths). my issue is you just don't pay one player 25 million who is as profoundly flawed as melo is. what we have here is a virtually impossible situation, a very very deep hole that many posters seem to think the knickerbockers will be able to dig themselves out of... with the goal of winning a title with melo in a knick uniform.

the amount of sheer inertia that his salary and his game have on a team is immense.

F500ONE wrote:Also did Pierce ever make $23-25mil/yr when Boston was rebuilding around him?

He wasn't a free agent so wasn't in a position to. They never had the cap space anyways- all the money was tied up in Pierce, KG and Allen- thats why people said at the time they were too shallow to win a championship. Ooh! What selfish monsters getting paid for their services!

Also you were making out 30 is the new 40 when it comes to nba players. which is why I was pointing out about Paul Pierce.

smackeddog wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Also did Pierce ever make $23-25mil/yr when Boston was rebuilding around him?

He wasn't a free agent so wasn't in a position to. They never had the cap space anyways- all the money was tied up in Pierce, KG and Allen- thats why people said at the time they were too shallow to win a championship. Ooh! What selfish monsters getting paid for their services!

Also you were making out 30 is the new 40 when it comes to nba players. which is why I was pointing out about Paul Pierce.

Paul Pierce was not a 1-Way player

And had more than 1 way repertoire in his offensive game

Historically teams don't rebuild around 30yr old player

nixluva wrote:I'm still waiting to read any valid argument that Phil has no chance to put together a team as good or better than Melo's 54 win, WCF's team in Denver. It seems to me that team wasn't overloaded with elite talent that we have no shot at bringing in. Billups, Nene, Kenyon and JR is capable of winning 54 games and getting to the WCF's with Melo then really what are we talking about?

This is going to be a very serious process and it offers no guarantees of success. Still Phil has a lot of options to make improvements to the roster and build a team that makes sense and can excel in this system.

Teams that are already better than us will have some of the same

Resources at their disposal, Phil is not trying to duplicate

The 54 win Denver team, another 54gm reference of course

No one could talk sense into you at the beginning of the season about this squad

What makes you think we're capable of doing so now for you

Phil is trying to carve his own legacy and be a beacon of success the way he knows how

The problem, the NBA climate has changed dramatically and it looks

Totally different from a bench vs a pressbox or midcourt seat

But with that said Phil might want to fire Fisher and hire Karl since Karl

Was the only coach Melo had any REAL SUCCESS with since you want to go for Ole Times Sakes on us