franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo murders love and buries christmas!

Think Jimmy Butler is a star? He is on a good team!!!!
Better ball movement without Melo. Same result. So the logical thing is "we are no worse, no better".
Good thinking when you can't see past your nose. The shortsighted see only whats in front of them.
Melo is no superstar on a bad team. True. melo would be better on a better team. Briliant right?
But gee, how we gonna attract players if we suck? Lets make trades now to get better, after all the pitiful knicks have no draft luck!!! Oh whoa is Me!!!
So how do the knicks break the chain if idiocy? Lowrey? Lowrey, Bargs and Melo as a core would suck. We'd be better, but not contend. Easy when your 5-23 to say whats wrong. Easy to say some would be an improvement here. Thats obvious. But whats hard is to see a MULTI SEASON REBUILD when your an emotional wreck and get off being "That guy who gets off on being that guy who says we suck!"

Whats not easy is to be patient, see what can be, and maybe enjoy some games in between.
Im that guy, and no I don't have the answers because its not right in front of me. Actually Im not stupid enough to just throw everything out in concept that "would improve". Thats easy. But its not real either. Throwing out trade ideals like vomit is easy and getting mad when GM does not make a deal is stupid when no working knowledge of the scenario is presented. Hindsight "Woulda coulda shoulda" or "I said so" is way too easy. if you spew ideals all the time of course "you said so" but you don't counter with the other half baked ideas that if enacted would have prevented "That" deal to happen.

Fans don't have any accountability because it seems like a video game to most. Nalod not claiming to have any either but when a guy says he is changing the culture of the team and one looks at the roster from day one it does not take a genius to figure out things are going to be different around here and losing might be part of it.

Lose the battle to win the war.

Knicks are not better without Carmelo? Im rooting for his success and transformation into the triangle as long as he is here. Me whining for him to go is not gonna make a difference. I didn't want him here but as long as he is Im gonna hope. If they trade him then I'll root for the new players and picks to establish a winning team!!!!

You 6 haters with never ending whining and angling to take every negative position with redundancy are doing a great job of stinking up many conversations. Its old and some of you are stale with new names. We've read them before. Its not a freedom of speech issue,, its just a request to have a fresh take. 5-23 means things are wrong. We get it. WE see it, we read it. Its understood.

Trust me, Mark Jax is not coming to save the day!

there is a notion that melo needs to have better players around him. i think it may have been phil jackson who said that.

but surely that was said BEFORE jackdolan rewarded melo with a 124 million dollar contract. jackson's reaction? "He did exactly what we kind of asked him to do." care to unravel that knotty statement, nalod?

so you have to have a talent for compartmentalizing to tolerate what is going on with the knicks. you can't build around melo even at 13 million dollars a season, yet he is being paid 25 million and we somehow expect to build a winner even with more cap space.

puh-leeeeeeze

So we have moved on from waiving Gallo's stat line and Denver's win total in our faces and moved on to this... Carry on, just documenting the movement. One day you guys will be famous. There will be documentaries, statues... about "those who knew about Melo all along..."

Fish - normally I agree with alot of your thoughts about this team.

But honestly, its hard for me to think Melo is ever going to be a net plus to this franchise.

Melo is super talented- yes, he has flaws.

But last night we played competitive basketball against a top team.

Maybe Melo is hurt and just needs to get fixed up so he can contribute.

I'm worried Melo has become an anti leader - and you can't simply dismiss what you see on the court and the record.

5 Wins. If Melo is so great, he should be able to take a group of NBDL'ers and win more than 5 games. Its not like we've played a lot of tough competition so far.

Again, that is NOT on Melo its on MSG.
1) They (as always) bid against themselves and overpaid to get him here
2) They have had plenty of chances to sell and trade him, they rather commit to him as a revenue generator
3) They put themselve in a corner where the most attractive sell they could give him was tons of $$$ and you dont have to move your family (talking last year's resign)
4) Their biggest move to get a high impact player to balance this team was Bargs

Dude... MSG is been terrible. Melo is just the dumb jock along for the ride. This guy isnt punching his wife, killing dogs, beating his kid till he bleeds, raping massage therapists... guys he plays with seem to like him and and when he talks I hear dumb jock. He makes a ton of cash... its pro sports. Why the daily venom? Its ruined the forum....

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo murders love and buries christmas!

Think Jimmy Butler is a star? He is on a good team!!!!
Better ball movement without Melo. Same result. So the logical thing is "we are no worse, no better".
Good thinking when you can't see past your nose. The shortsighted see only whats in front of them.
Melo is no superstar on a bad team. True. melo would be better on a better team. Briliant right?
But gee, how we gonna attract players if we suck? Lets make trades now to get better, after all the pitiful knicks have no draft luck!!! Oh whoa is Me!!!
So how do the knicks break the chain if idiocy? Lowrey? Lowrey, Bargs and Melo as a core would suck. We'd be better, but not contend. Easy when your 5-23 to say whats wrong. Easy to say some would be an improvement here. Thats obvious. But whats hard is to see a MULTI SEASON REBUILD when your an emotional wreck and get off being "That guy who gets off on being that guy who says we suck!"

Whats not easy is to be patient, see what can be, and maybe enjoy some games in between.
Im that guy, and no I don't have the answers because its not right in front of me. Actually Im not stupid enough to just throw everything out in concept that "would improve". Thats easy. But its not real either. Throwing out trade ideals like vomit is easy and getting mad when GM does not make a deal is stupid when no working knowledge of the scenario is presented. Hindsight "Woulda coulda shoulda" or "I said so" is way too easy. if you spew ideals all the time of course "you said so" but you don't counter with the other half baked ideas that if enacted would have prevented "That" deal to happen.

Fans don't have any accountability because it seems like a video game to most. Nalod not claiming to have any either but when a guy says he is changing the culture of the team and one looks at the roster from day one it does not take a genius to figure out things are going to be different around here and losing might be part of it.

Lose the battle to win the war.

Knicks are not better without Carmelo? Im rooting for his success and transformation into the triangle as long as he is here. Me whining for him to go is not gonna make a difference. I didn't want him here but as long as he is Im gonna hope. If they trade him then I'll root for the new players and picks to establish a winning team!!!!

You 6 haters with never ending whining and angling to take every negative position with redundancy are doing a great job of stinking up many conversations. Its old and some of you are stale with new names. We've read them before. Its not a freedom of speech issue,, its just a request to have a fresh take. 5-23 means things are wrong. We get it. WE see it, we read it. Its understood.

Trust me, Mark Jax is not coming to save the day!

there is a notion that melo needs to have better players around him. i think it may have been phil jackson who said that.

but surely that was said BEFORE jackdolan rewarded melo with a 124 million dollar contract. jackson's reaction? "He did exactly what we kind of asked him to do." care to unravel that knotty statement, nalod?

so you have to have a talent for compartmentalizing to tolerate what is going on with the knicks. you can't build around melo even at 13 million dollars a season, yet he is being paid 25 million and we somehow expect to build a winner even with more cap space.

puh-leeeeeeze

So we have moved on from waiving Gallo's stat line and Denver's win total in our faces and moved on to this... Carry on, just documenting the movement. One day you guys will be famous. There will be documentaries, statues... about "those who knew about Melo all along..."

Fish - normally I agree with alot of your thoughts about this team.

But honestly, its hard for me to think Melo is ever going to be a net plus to this franchise.

Melo is super talented- yes, he has flaws.

But last night we played competitive basketball against a top team.

Maybe Melo is hurt and just needs to get fixed up so he can contribute.

I'm worried Melo has become an anti leader - and you can't simply dismiss what you see on the court and the record.

5 Wins. If Melo is so great, he should be able to take a group of NBDL'ers and win more than 5 games. Its not like we've played a lot of tough competition so far.

smackeddog wrote:I remember when the argument was "The Knicks are better without Ewing"- the **** never changes, knick fans need to constantly blast their highest paid players. One day (though to be honest it probably happened a few years ago) no one will want to come here because the media and fans are the worst in the league.

And there was a point where the Knicks did play better without Ewing when our style of play changed in 99.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo murders love and buries christmas!

Think Jimmy Butler is a star? He is on a good team!!!!
Better ball movement without Melo. Same result. So the logical thing is "we are no worse, no better".
Good thinking when you can't see past your nose. The shortsighted see only whats in front of them.
Melo is no superstar on a bad team. True. melo would be better on a better team. Briliant right?
But gee, how we gonna attract players if we suck? Lets make trades now to get better, after all the pitiful knicks have no draft luck!!! Oh whoa is Me!!!
So how do the knicks break the chain if idiocy? Lowrey? Lowrey, Bargs and Melo as a core would suck. We'd be better, but not contend. Easy when your 5-23 to say whats wrong. Easy to say some would be an improvement here. Thats obvious. But whats hard is to see a MULTI SEASON REBUILD when your an emotional wreck and get off being "That guy who gets off on being that guy who says we suck!"

Whats not easy is to be patient, see what can be, and maybe enjoy some games in between.
Im that guy, and no I don't have the answers because its not right in front of me. Actually Im not stupid enough to just throw everything out in concept that "would improve". Thats easy. But its not real either. Throwing out trade ideals like vomit is easy and getting mad when GM does not make a deal is stupid when no working knowledge of the scenario is presented. Hindsight "Woulda coulda shoulda" or "I said so" is way too easy. if you spew ideals all the time of course "you said so" but you don't counter with the other half baked ideas that if enacted would have prevented "That" deal to happen.

Fans don't have any accountability because it seems like a video game to most. Nalod not claiming to have any either but when a guy says he is changing the culture of the team and one looks at the roster from day one it does not take a genius to figure out things are going to be different around here and losing might be part of it.

Lose the battle to win the war.

Knicks are not better without Carmelo? Im rooting for his success and transformation into the triangle as long as he is here. Me whining for him to go is not gonna make a difference. I didn't want him here but as long as he is Im gonna hope. If they trade him then I'll root for the new players and picks to establish a winning team!!!!

You 6 haters with never ending whining and angling to take every negative position with redundancy are doing a great job of stinking up many conversations. Its old and some of you are stale with new names. We've read them before. Its not a freedom of speech issue,, its just a request to have a fresh take. 5-23 means things are wrong. We get it. WE see it, we read it. Its understood.

Trust me, Mark Jax is not coming to save the day!

there is a notion that melo needs to have better players around him. i think it may have been phil jackson who said that.

but surely that was said BEFORE jackdolan rewarded melo with a 124 million dollar contract. jackson's reaction? "He did exactly what we kind of asked him to do." care to unravel that knotty statement, nalod?

so you have to have a talent for compartmentalizing to tolerate what is going on with the knicks. you can't build around melo even at 13 million dollars a season, yet he is being paid 25 million and we somehow expect to build a winner even with more cap space.

puh-leeeeeeze

So we have moved on from waiving Gallo's stat line and Denver's win total in our faces and moved on to this... Carry on, just documenting the movement. One day you guys will be famous. There will be documentaries, statues... about "those who knew about Melo all along..."

Fish - normally I agree with alot of your thoughts about this team.

But honestly, its hard for me to think Melo is ever going to be a net plus to this franchise.

Melo is super talented- yes, he has flaws.

But last night we played competitive basketball against a top team.

Maybe Melo is hurt and just needs to get fixed up so he can contribute.

I'm worried Melo has become an anti leader - and you can't simply dismiss what you see on the court and the record.

5 Wins. If Melo is so great, he should be able to take a group of NBDL'ers and win more than 5 games. Its not like we've played a lot of tough competition so far.

havent we lost 17 games by 5 points or less? I mean if the arguement is if having Melo and he's so great we should be more competitive isnt that evidence we have been?

Listen... Im not here to defend Melo. I have no stake in him coming or going. I look at this team and these games and the place I would want to start to fix things isnt with Melo. I can work with what he brings to the table, flawed as it is.

I hear "anti-leader" so please show me the quotes from players who are thrilled to be out from under his bootheels. Tyson could have TRASHED him and what did he say about Melo? What has become comical around these parts is I am the uber-Melo-zealot when all I am doing is calling guys out on rallying behind **** that is totally fabricated to further their agendas.

I say the same things...
1)What is MElo doing differently now than he was doing 2 years ago when he was 3rd in MVP voting on a 54 win team.
2)Tell me one other player on this roster that if you had all the cap space in the world you would sign to build as part of your team. Im not even going to ask who else is good at this point... I mean who wouldnt be in in the NDBL???? Its putrid

Those questions are the extent of my Melo-hero worship. When the team is functional we can talk and discuss Melo's role and worth. Its not even close to functional and folks need to blame so you have the daily anti-Melo thread circle jerk. Some days it cute and entertaining. They have their moments.

we have lost a bunch of close games - but of those, how many were we down 20 at some point in the first half, down 10 before the first quarter was over?

I'll give you this about MSG- we really have in a very public, non verbalized way said pretty much no one on this roster except Melo is here beyond next year. And I think that could be very toxic.

Bargnani should be released. He isn't sticking around - he's probably not going to play again for us, or anyone. Release him.

But the challenge for Melo & Fisher as leaders is to get through to guys, and get them on the same page.

And Phil should have picked Larkin's contract option- if only to have a few guys feeling like they are wanted here for the long haul.

But none of that- and its all very rational and makes sense- can help me shake my suspicion that Melo is somewhat an ineffective leader who causes more harm than good.

He went out last year and played his balls off.

But I think he soured the atmosphere with his "I'm testing the FA market in the off season"

I think your right on about leadership and Melo. He doesnt strike me as a guy who is going to push others. He does play hard. He does play hurt but the leadership probably stops there.

I think thats fair. As for causing more harm than good.... if thats the case again I dont put that on Melo I put it on MSG. When the Pistons aquired Sheed did they ask him to be a leader? To be a clubhouse guy? No... they said you tough guy, stop that guy other there in the other uniform.

The point is Melo's strengths and weaknesses are well documented. If he plays better with a few old school guys than so be it. To me it seems as simple as this. JR, Felton and Chandler were all guy who had excellent seasons two years ago and who's production took a sizable and quantifiable drop. Then you had several good role players who at various times provided high level play from one stretch or another. Kidd, Brewer, Kurt all had great stretches. Novak had a great year and Copeland played himself into a nice contract. All those good roles and role players... where did that production go? Bargs. Who am I missing?

Melo is not without fault... cmon, but look at the moves and drop in production from players between now and two years ago, and what does Melo have to do with that?