DJMUSIC wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Were in deep sht at the PG spot

and were all over the place with the line ups. I know its preseason but this really does look like a 35-38 win team. I dont want to say that and by God If Calderon gets hurtit will be a nightmare. I think well be ok ??

Agree briggs.. 150%

That is whole point of my point on PG. Of Course we'll take time to develop some respectable defense
however ..I'd/DJ feel whole helluva lot BETTER if we had a PG OR 2 whom was respected & brought some identity
to point guard play.

I maintain we Live & GROW and GO With the guard play of point.

Unless we get a PG whom can establish themselves as either driving to paint, & dissing
OR leading in Assists (top 10) OR even getting to Foul line to help NY win games is where I'd be most happy.

But I am happy with D.Fisher deameanor, Phil Jackson intent its all about next season
however NBA east isn't that good!! outside NBA Bulls, Cavs and perhaps the new Wizards and toss in Pacers out of respect.

Thus I maintain even if about next yr, MELO Knicks can make playoffs easy with 40-46 win season
if they get the Point ! <pg> if ya hearing what I am saying. Nothing to disrespect Calderone I like him & he's a starter
but Jose C. aint playing full 72-82 games, so we are in trouble at PG past that. Shumpert aint a point & Shane Larkin isn't a starter.

Also please note that Phil has had SG's play "PG" for him over the years, tho technically there isn't really a PG in the Triangle Offense. He's used Derek Harper and Brian Shaw as ball handlers. It's really a lack of understanding of how the Triangle works to worry so much about the PG spot. PG is minimized in the Triangle. Not that you don't need good ball handlers, but they don't have to be prototypical ball dominant PG's. Derek Fisher wasn't a major penetrating PG, tho he'd do it on occasion. Most of Phil's PG's were either big defensive guys or great 3pt shooters. Jose, Larkin and Prigs is adequate for now. I'm sure that Phil is already looking at upgrading the position, but it's going to be based on his idea of what he needs at that spot and not the typical PG role.

What's with this overwrought complaining? We got an upgrade during a new rebuild under Phil Jackson. We got a highly intelligent PG who can coach our players on the floor. And FYI that particular skill is not always abundant in PGs you would rank higher than Calderon. Phil clearly brought him in to teach as the system is installed and inculcated into every player's BB DNA.

Jose is a transitional PG and the best we could do so quit moaning. He is very good at what he does. Oh, and he is a real PG in case you didn't notice, not something the Knicks have been known for having for some time now.

I don't expect we are going to pay big FA money for a PG this coming off-season. Perhaps we could use the cap change in 2017 to then pay a big PG FA which would be year 3 of Jose's contract.

Larkin is being given his shot. I don't have any prediction on him.

Worrying about Jose's contract now is a waste of time. It was the price of building a new system.

This is the first time the franchise got a PG first. This is not a small point.

Before the Knicks sabotaged D'Antoni with Toney Douglas. Mike is not a good coach, but why would you spend big bucks on a coach known for being PG-centric and not prioritize that position?

And then the Knicks gave away half the team to get Melo and what did they do? Brought back Felton. Why would you not prioritize getting a PG to help Melo. It was certainly more critical than signing Tyson.

So with Phil, we get a smart player who can organize this ball club and teach it how to play. This the world we live in now where more than ever you need to teach players how to play together.

If you don't consider this important and cannot understand why Jose fills this role, then go ahead and continue moping about not having an elite penetrating all-world defensive top 3 PG yet.

knickscity wrote:

Splat wrote:Jose could be our Pablo, PG # 2, if we upgrade again in the next three years. That's a damn good problem to have if we can draft a stud PG.

I don't expect we are going to pay big FA money for a PG this coming off-season. Perhaps we could use the cap change in 2017 to then pay a big PG FA which would be year 3 of Jose's contract.

Larkin is being given his shot. I don't have any prediction on him.

Worrying about Jose's contract now is a waste of time. It was the price of building a new system.

This is the first time the franchise got a PG first. This is not a small point.

Before the Knicks sabotaged D'Antoni with Toney Douglas. Mike is not a good coach, but why would you spend big bucks on a coach known for being PG-centric and not prioritize that position?

And then the Knicks gave away half the team to get Melo and what did they do? Brought back Felton. Why would you not prioritize getting a PG to help Melo. It was certainly more critical than signing Tyson.

So with Phil, we get a smart player who can organize this ball club and teach it how to play. This the world we live in now where more than ever you need to teach players how to play together.

If you don't consider this important and cannot understand why Jose fills this role, then go ahead and continue moping about not having an elite penetrating all-world defensive top 3 PG yet.

Disagree with the bold. D'antoni had Marbury...decided not to use him even though he did exactly what he asked....and started Chris Duhon. D'antoni also had Billups, but as soon as the team got swept stated he expected Melo to be a triple double threat. D'atnoni has had pg to ultilize here...chose not to.

But for thread purposes his defense is a concern, and appranetly it's one for Fisher as well considering the lineup he been starting with so far.

GTFOH!!! It's a joke for you to try and spin this that MDA was given the PG he needed and then use Marbs as the example. REALLY??? It may have been ugly how MDA handled that but you don't know what vibe was going on between Steph and MDA. MDA really has no patience for BS and i'm guessing something about how "Entitled" Stephon Marbury was carrying himself just didn't sit well with MDA. Besides Marbs was clearly in decline and played another 23 games in the NBA after MDA!!!

Duhon played 146 games for MDA. Duhon was basically the only guy willing to sign a 2 year deal and he was not a great PG, just what was available for what they wanted to pay.

Felton played 54 games for MDA before he was traded.

Billups was a good but aging PG but not a PnR PG. Billups played 21 games for MDA and 1 playoff game!!!

Jeremy Lin played 25 games for MDA before MDA resigned.

How can you make a case that MDA really had what he needed based on these facts?

nixluva wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Were in deep sht at the PG spot

and were all over the place with the line ups. I know its preseason but this really does look like a 35-38 win team. I dont want to say that and by God If Calderon gets hurtit will be a nightmare. I think well be ok ??

Agree briggs.. 150%

That is whole point of my point on PG. Of Course we'll take time to develop some respectable defense
however ..I'd/DJ feel whole helluva lot BETTER if we had a PG OR 2 whom was respected & brought some identity
to point guard play.

I maintain we Live & GROW and GO With the guard play of point.

Unless we get a PG whom can establish themselves as either driving to paint, & dissing
OR leading in Assists (top 10) OR even getting to Foul line to help NY win games is where I'd be most happy.

But I am happy with D.Fisher deameanor, Phil Jackson intent its all about next season
however NBA east isn't that good!! outside NBA Bulls, Cavs and perhaps the new Wizards and toss in Pacers out of respect.

Thus I maintain even if about next yr, MELO Knicks can make playoffs easy with 40-46 win season
if they get the Point ! <pg> if ya hearing what I am saying. Nothing to disrespect Calderone I like him & he's a starter
but Jose C. aint playing full 72-82 games, so we are in trouble at PG past that. Shumpert aint a point & Shane Larkin isn't a starter.

You and Briggs really don't have a good take on this PG issue. For one thing Jose even at this age is still a top 20 PG in this league at the least. Many have him higher than that. Secondly this offense isn't really predicated on a penetrating PG. Thirdly it's not realistic to expect a lot of PG assists either. Phil's teams have never had a big assist PG. The Triangle doesn't lend itself to high PG assists.

Also please note that Phil has had SG's play "PG" for him over the years, tho technically there isn't really a PG in the Triangle Offense. He's used Derek Harper and Brian Shaw as ball handlers. It's really a lack of understanding of how the Triangle works to worry so much about the PG spot. PG is minimized in the Triangle. Not that you don't need good ball handlers, but they don't have to be prototypical ball dominant PG's. Derek Fisher wasn't a major penetrating PG, tho he'd do it on occasion. Most of Phil's PG's were either big defensive guys or great 3pt shooters. Jose, Larkin and Prigs is adequate for now. I'm sure that Phil is already looking at upgrading the position, but it's going to be based on his idea of what he needs at that spot and not the typical PG role.

Let me address this one 1st <<< WE STILL ARENT CONTENDERS! Chicago, Cleveland, SanAn, etc would all annihilate >>> then NIX

First of all about NBA East playoffs why we' citing SanAntonio here ? twice a yr reg season I Aint talking bout west/nba
past Bulls, Cavs, Heat, maybe Pacers, Wiz the Knickberbockers has a good chance as any of LESSER NBA EAST teams left to make
spots 6th, 7th OR 8th. Not Boston, Not Bklyn Nets, Not Hawks, nor Pistons. Scratch SA bout' on annihilate NY we aint in west!

As far a NIX, there is NO way J.Calderone whom is fine PG but even with steals isn't the defender PG he was 6,7 years ago
Throw in you're mention of Paublo Priggy, there is NO WAY either Paublo OR Jose is scaring any PG in NBA this season much
less being durable to count where it matters. I respect both NY PGs whom combine age may be what ? near 70 yrs of age.?

We need another PG, I don't know where ? don't know how cheap it would be without affecting our 2015/16 cap $$$
we need to learn from rest of NBA (e.g. Mr Tony Parker, Mr. Damian Lillard, ect) that Point guard is only way to keep this
hope of building NY back up.

We can have an off yr and miss playoffs
I'd think we can try I am not sure where NY would be in any advantage to tank season for 2015 NBA draft pick, I thought 2015 draft
is suppose to be weak ? ? ? what is NY disposition for that pick ? if Knicks are lousy picking in top 10 .. are we sure we didn't
give that pick away either ?

Still need a PG option this year, draft pick OR no draft pick in 2015
Larking and Paublo backing up Jose Calderone doesn't excite me...

However you slice it, the franchise committed itself to Duhon, Felton and then poor little Toney Douglas. If they brought in MDA and knew he had no plan to work with Marbury, they should have done better. If MDA threw management for a loop by the way he handled Marbury, they sure didn't step in and say NO MIKE, you can't do that. They gave their shiny new coach the juice to do what he did, so they should have continued to support him and get him a better PG no matter how much of a loser coach MDA was and is.

The Knicks effed up no matter how you slice it and MDA still sucks.

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Playing Toney Douglas as a starting point is enough reason to never support this fool.

Toney Douglas was not a PG. There was not ONE SINGLE PG ON THE ROSTER at that point. MDA had no choice but to use Toney as his PG.

I agree MDA sucks, but I have never seen an NBA club start a season without a single PG on the team. That is insane far more than MDA is inept.

The inept part is D'antoni had issues with this.

DJMUSIC wrote:
As far a NIX, there is NO way J.Calderone whom is fine PG but even with steals isn't the defender PG he was 6,7 years ago Throw in you're mention of Paublo Priggy, there is NO WAY either Paublo OR Jose is scaring any PG in NBA this season much less being durable to count where it matters. I respect both NY PGs whom combine age may be what ? near 70 yrs of age.?

We need another PG, I don't know where ? don't know how cheap it would be without affecting our 2015/16 cap $$$
we need to learn from rest of NBA (e.g. Mr Tony Parker, Mr. Damian Lillard, ect) that Point guard is only way to keep this hope of building NY back up.

We can have an off yr and miss playoffs I'd think we can try I am not sure where NY would be in any advantage to tank season for 2015 NBA draft pick, I thought 2015 draft is suppose to be weak ? ? ? what is NY disposition for that pick ? if Knicks are lousy picking in top 10 .. are we sure we didn't
give that pick away either ?

Still need a PG option this year, draft pick OR no draft pick in 2015
Larking and Paublo backing up Jose Calderone doesn't excite me...

It's not about "scaring" opposing PG's. Defensively no one really stops the best PG's in this league anyway. Not individually. It takes good TEAM defense to slow down the best PG's. I realize that Jose has his weaknesses on man D against top PG's, but he won't really be asked to do it all by himself. The team approach is going to be key. So far I approve of the new defensive scheme. It's a better scheme to slow down PnR penetration. A better team defensive scheme.

Offensively Jose, Larkin and Prigs should be fine. They aren't going to be asked to carry the action. This system takes a HUGE load off of the PG. You really need to learn the history of this offense and how it works to know that this offense makes it possible to play without a ball dominant PG. This offense is focused more on Catch and shoot off ball and player movement and we have a good amount of good catch and shoot players at the top of the league in that regard. They should all be a bit better this year in this offense.

Player                                          Catch   Catch    
                                                nShoot  nShoot  Pull Up Pull Up
                        GMS     MPG     PPG     PTS     FG%     PTS     FG%     eFG%
Klay Thompson (GSW)	80	35.6	18.3	9.2	44.7%	3.3	38.7%	52.9%
Ryan Anderson (NOP)	22	36.4	19.8	8.9	41.7%	3.7	46.3%	53.2%
Dirk Nowitzki (DAL)	80	33.0	21.7	8.5	47.0%	4.8	47.4%	54.9%
Kyle Korver (ATL)	70	34.2	12.1	8.5	51.1%	1.8	39.4%	63.3%
Kevin Love (MIN)	77	36.5	26.1	7.2	41.3%	2.7	33.7%	52.4%
JJ Redick (LAC)	        35	28.4	15.2	7.0	45.4%	3.3	43.2%	54.6%
Channing Frye (PHX)	82	28.3	11.1	6.9	40.0%	0.6	38.8%	53.5%
Carmelo Anthony (NYK)	77	38.9	27.4	6.8	46.4%	7.4	40.5%	50.3%
J.R. Smith (NYK)	74	32.9	14.5	6.8	45.6%	3.8	33.0%	51.4%
Wesley Matthews (POR)	82	34.1	16.4	6.8	41.7%	2.5	36.1%	54.1%
Trevor Ariza (WAS)	76	35.6	14.5	6.7	43.5%	1.5	34.0%	56.3%
Paul George (IND)	80	36.4	21.7	6.5	43.4%	5.1	36.0%	49.0%
Wilson Chandler (DEN)	62	31.2	13.6	6.3	38.7%	1.1	25.6%	49.9%
LaMarcus Aldridge (POR)	69	36.4	23.2	6.2	46.0%	5.1	39.1%	45.9%
Arron Afflalo (ORL)	73	35.1	18.2	6.1	44.9%	4.8	43.6%	52.2%
Caron Butler (OKC)	22	27.4	9.7	6.1	44.0%	1.7	33.3%	53.0%
Gerald Green (PHX)	82	28.5	15.8	6.0	40.9%	4.1	39.7%	54.7%
Andrea Bargnani (NYK)	42	30.1	13.3	6.0	42.1%	1.1	32.4%	47.2%
Spencer Hawes (CLE)	27	29.9	13.5	5.9	45.9%	1.0	43.3%	54.7%
Terrence Ross (TOR)	80	26.8	10.9	5.8	41.6%	1.7	32.4%	53.1%
Jose Calderon (DAL)	81	30.6	11.4	5.8	44.9%	3.6	42.5%	58.4%
Chris Bosh (MIA)	79	32.3	16.2	5.8	43.6%	1.2	39.3%	55.5%
Bradley Beal (WAS)	72	34.7	17.1	5.8	41.7%	5.5	36.0%	47.9%
Caron Butler (TOTAL)	55	25.5	10.5	5.7	41.0%	2.6	36.4%	48.7%
Jason Smith (NOP)	31	26.8	9.7	5.7	45.8%	0.4	50.0%	46.5%

You can add THJ, Cleanthony and Prigs to that group of good catch and shoot players we have. Passing and Moving well without the ball is gonna be key. Also cutting to the basket and PnP will be important. Dribbling to beat your man is not emphasized as much.

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Fisher isnt just preaching team defense, he also preaches guys holding their own men as well and communicating in such. he's even been tinkering with lineups without a pg at all, although I think during those times Shumpert has been on the floor.

This is going to be much more talkative squad. If the mikes are picking it up, we should hear a far more vocal team now.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Fisher isnt just preaching team defense, he also preaches guys holding their own men as well and communicating in such. he's even been tinkering with lineups without a pg at all, although I think during those times Shumpert has been on the floor.

This isn't unusual for Phil's teams to go without a PG on the floor. As I pointed out before he had Harper as his defacto PG for years and Brian Shaw as well. Shump fits that kind of role. It's mostly about having a good defensive back court and still being able to score effectively. The Triangle allows a team to actually play well minus a traditional PG.