Excellent bit of writing and food for thought.

As far as Phil and Melo goes, keeping Melo in tow is better for him than starting over without. Phil isnt young, likely wont surpass the 5 years he signed for. Had Phil had a few more years to play with, I do think this decision might not have been the same. Phil knows Melo has to make a transformation to make this a successful journey, and that whatever Phil is able to build upon completion, while wont compete with what he's used to can definitely be enjoyed, because this is the first time Phil has been the primary architect of the build. That in turn will play a huge role in what free agents come in to help with the cause or not as quality attracts quality. For instance, Pau chose Chi because of the talent and coaching and what he could bring to a workhorse team. Marion doesnt sign with the Cavs if LeBron isnt there. Ray Allen knows that his next move too, but doesnt want his last year or so being recalled as **** riding LeBron.

The team the Knicks display this upcoming season is paramount. Even though I'm not 100% positive they will make the playoffs as anything can happen, they absolutely have to, there is no debate there. Not making the playoffs under Woody is one thing, not making it under two guys with so much experience on knowing how to win is career suicide for every current player on the team. Not qualifying is the equivalent of not buying in. There's around half a roster of players that need to make this a team success to further their own individual careers. Phil has no expectation of the team being dominant in the second season, but it's inexcusable for them NOT to make it in his eyes. it reflects him as a talent evalutor on every single level from players to coach. basically says "Phil didnt know what he was doing" to every quality free agent out there. There are a few teams the league and it's worldwide fanbase will be watching, the Knicks are definitely one of them.

dk7th wrote:this is a quality post. i will underscore the two main points you made: jackson may have felt, because of his age but moreso his physical condition (is 69 considered "old" anymore?), that he had to retain anthony and not endure an outright rebuild, and second, that the knicks absolutely MUST make the playoffs if they hope to attract quality veterans after the season.

as to the first point, i would say that it is folly to take a job where your physical condition and age has an impact on your decisions on personnel-- if true, isn't that selfish? hence, araton's interesting undermining of jackson's glib sobriquet "maverick" and substitute of "good company man."

as to the second point, the team is not going to be any good on the defensive end, which spells doom even in the first round, should the knicks even make it that far. my feelings are that it is close to certain that they will lose 6-7 games on poor defense alone, putting them in a hole of winning 35-36 games. this means that they will have to be a top 3 offensive team in order to win 45-46 games, requiring not only to make up for the 6-7 games on defense but another 4-5 games as well.

I think Phil knows he has a shelf life that's coming to an end and personally I dont mind him spending it here. But make no mistake he knows what the company line is has made reference to it quite a few times but ultimately he just doesnt have the time ro rebuild from scratch....so he had to keep Melo. I cant call it selfish, but just being realistic and responsible. Just think about it? Phil blows it up and then cant finish the task......that not only selfish but also irresponsible. The way he has it now for better or for worst is he can carry out his plan.

Once this journey is over it will be very interesting to hear what Phil has to say about it. But this was a job that Phil should have entered immediately after coaching, or perhaps he coached for too long? Those three dormant years could have been useful even if he wasnt here. he planned on doing it with a new team being moved to seattle but that didnt work out. Phil certainly is old, I doubt he does much traveling and likely will be "home" in NY quite a bit.

Now as far as the defense goes, I knew that Phil would not trade Shumpert. That young man is needed in the worst way, was a fan of Phil and Jordans Bulls, and if this cant ignite the fire in a controlled way, nothing can. But I do think the team defense will come via an efficient offense combined with getting timely stops. Of course Fisher used the word "elite"...i got a huge chuckle out of that.

dk7th wrote:this is a quality post. i will underscore the two main points you made: jackson may have felt, because of his age but moreso his physical condition (is 69 considered "old" anymore?), that he had to retain anthony and not endure an outright rebuild, and second, that the knicks absolutely MUST make the playoffs if they hope to attract quality veterans after the season.

as to the first point, i would say that it is folly to take a job where your physical condition and age has an impact on your decisions on personnel-- if true, isn't that selfish? hence, araton's interesting undermining of jackson's glib sobriquet "maverick" and substitute of "good company man."

as to the second point, the team is not going to be any good on the defensive end, which spells doom even in the first round, should the knicks even make it that far. my feelings are that it is close to certain that they will lose 6-7 games on poor defense alone, putting them in a hole of winning 35-36 games. this means that they will have to be a top 3 offensive team in order to win 45-46 games, requiring not only to make up for the 6-7 games on defense but another 4-5 games as well.

I've always maintained

An exec who is calling the shots

Should make decisions based on the

Good of the franchise and not the good of their tenure

Case in point, if Phil was to have

A turn for the worse where he physically couldn't do the job

In yr 2, where does that place the next GM///////

When they take over

Is he in a good position

To build on the foundation or does he feel

The reality of how difficult it is to win

Working from mediocre positioning and reasons

The franchise should abort and change course

Mark Cuban said a revelation on Shark Tank

The other week about business venture success

And relating it to sports, in particular his Mavericks team

I wholeheartedly agreed with him

The league is more balanced but much younger

And Lebron plays in our conference, the struggle is real

It's called ignore

for a purpose

use of it sparingly

but in specific instances

can lead to a more

quality UK experience

If you notice

Most of F500NE's posts

are disjointed somberisms

amidst whinings for other teams

nyk4ever wrote:i really hate

reading any thread that involves

f500one posting because

the stupid formatting of his posts

makes every thread increasingly longer

because of the ridiculous insistence

on breaking every single group of words

into a new line in his post

it really is getting kind of ridiculous
and seems pretty pointless

Now that you've got this off your chest again

What did you think of the article

Every yr we hear, oh the east has gotten better, and at the end of the yr, they actually have gotten worse.. As soon as phil said 45 wins will be the bench mark for a playoff birth, I started thinking, he must really think he's still out west.

I'm reading articles examining all the knicks issues last yr, and then i see them predict the same record, or 1 or 2 games better. Even some of the poster here are very pessimistic about this season, as if none of our issues have been address.

knicks1248 wrote:Lets get one thing clear for sure, in the last 15 years, the 8th seed in the east hasn't been .500 or above, in fact it's been a total of one season where the 8th seed had won 40 games.

Every yr we hear, oh the east has gotten better, and at the end of the yr, they actually have gotten worse.. As soon as phil said 45 wins will be the bench mark for a playoff birth, I started thinking, he must really think he's still out west.

I'm reading articles examining all the knicks issues last yr, and then i see them predict the same record, or 1 or 2 games better. Even some of the poster here are very pessimistic about this season, as if none of our issues have been address.

So the benchmark is to be 8th seed?

1 and a half season and we're hoping

To grab the very end of the rope

I think Phil is saying not to think less than 45wins

I have no problem with this mentality and approach

He's not saying this with absolute confidence though

Was this the benchmark of his previous teams

Just get in and we'll figure it out from there?

In all honesty 45wins probably sits middle of pack for playoffs

Getting in as an 8th seed what has history proven there?

The way you judge a conference

Is by overall wins and losses from season to season

Not who finished dead last or 8th seed

And the strength of teams at the top total wins

Did they win it all

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Lets get one thing clear for sure, in the last 15 years, the 8th seed in the east hasn't been .500 or above, in fact it's been a total of one season where the 8th seed had won 40 games.

Every yr we hear, oh the east has gotten better, and at the end of the yr, they actually have gotten worse.. As soon as phil said 45 wins will be the bench mark for a playoff birth, I started thinking, he must really think he's still out west.

I'm reading articles examining all the knicks issues last yr, and then i see them predict the same record, or 1 or 2 games better. Even some of the poster here are very pessimistic about this season, as if none of our issues have been address.

defense has not been addressed. that alone puts the knicks in a 5-6 game hole. even if they make the playoffs it could be annihilation since the defense was not addressed.

bargnani
stoudemire
hardaway jr.
smith
melo
calderon

these are all sub-par defenders, and in some cases just god-awful.

meanwhile on the other end of the court only calderon has some talent at making others better, and that is a pretty big burden to carry, probably too big a burden. to climb out of that defensive hole, the offense will have to be top 3 in the nba.

does anybody in their right mind think that calderon and the triangle system is going to be enough? are these mismatched and overpaid players coachable, and is the coaching staff capable?

i for one will consider it a miracle if they win 45-46 games.

I certainly agree with the defense issues, but we on 37 games with no tyson, and no felton, and even though they were they physically, they were not there mentally at all.

The defense was bad because of non communication and no one buying into the switching which compounded the issue. It was the lack of discipline, 2 guys running to defend the ball, or no one protecting the paint because the last time they did, they left their man for a wide open 3 pointer.

With D fish stating defense will be the main focus during boot camp, that has to garner some kind of optimistic feeling.

there is a difference between willingness and spiritedness on the one hand, and ability and sound strategy (coaching) on the other.

i can't afford to be optimistic, a wait and see attitude, ie skepticism, will have to suffice.

CrushAlot wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

dk7th wrote:as to the first point, i would say that it is folly to take a job where your physical condition and age has an impact on your decisions on personnel-- if true, isn't that selfish?

I have a different take on the Zen Master to the Knicks situation.

I think the old man just saw a massive cash grab with no questions asked and would be presented with a No Lose situation in terms of legacy and public perception.

When Jackson did an interview, when there were rumors that someone would ask him to simply coach the Knicks, he said less than flattering things about the Knicks roster and franchise. One of the interesting things about Jackson is occasionally in the press, he can be very frank.

Once Dolan backed up a truckload of cash and total power and even the ability to basically "telecommute" if he wanted, then Jackson's tune changed.

If he turns the Knicks around, he's a genius. And he got paid.

If he can't turn the Knicks around, then it's still Dolan's fault because his poor ownership drove the franchise into the ground and the press will eat Melo alive for all of his flaws as a 3rd tier type "franchise" player.

The press LOVES Zen Master. They absolutely LOVE him. He jokes around with them, he gives them quotes, he knows how to manipulate them. They aren't going after him if this Knicks thing doesn't work out.

And while he is on the Knicks, he has the full weight of CAA, with it's reach and media power, to help support his image in the press.

I think he's moving the Knicks in a positive direction (whether it will make them a contender one day or not, who knows) but I've said before that I think you could get 10-15 of these young analytical GMs, the new wave like Ujiri and Hennigan and Cho, and still get generally the same end result. ( i.e. stop making stupid short term decisions and start building a real team based on the market forces at work around you)

Honestly, I think Zen Master took Plan C after his failed attempt to consider marriage to Jeanie Buss would get him indirect power over the Lakers. I think he's laughing his way, all the way, to the bank.

I do think he's got the franchise on a better path but it seems just like Dolan to pay 700 percent more for what he could have gotten anyway for a lot less cost. I'm not sure if Zen Masters huge payday is Jackson's salary or really a self imposed tax on Dolan for his own ineptitude.

I think Jackson just knows how to work a No Lose situation for himself. ( i.e. if he can't win again with the Lakers it's because Kobe is selfish and drove Shaq out and is uncoachable and Buss Jr is an idiot) and if Melo left it's because he's a ring chasing disloyal chucker who had to follow LBJ's coat tails. If he wins with Kobe ( which he did with Gasol), then he's even more of a genius. If Melo stays, it's because he's a "leader of men who commands respect", not that Melo wasn't leaving that much money on the table.

Master manipulator who talked and walked his way into a soft cushy end of the line job that offers No Lose upside. Plus he still gets the attention that his giant ego needs, and who knows, maybe he actually needs the cash. Gotta love the Zen Master. Even if he doesn't win in NY, he basically pimped out the Knicks.

Wow. Glad I don't agree with almost any of this. I am looking forward to what Phil can do and so far it appears that Dolan has moved out of the way like he did for the Rangers. Phil is already a very wealthy man and he is engaged to a very wealthy woman. I think he really wanted the chance to rebuild the knicks. No reason, financial or legacy, makes as much sense in my opinion.

agree 100% anyone who thinks this was just a cash-grab for pjax is lost. he has made a ton of money coaching and jeanie buss is ridiculous wealthy, money is the last thing pjax needed. the cynicism is out of control.

knicks1248 wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

dk7th wrote:as to the first point, i would say that it is folly to take a job where your physical condition and age has an impact on your decisions on personnel-- if true, isn't that selfish?

I have a different take on the Zen Master to the Knicks situation.

I think the old man just saw a massive cash grab with no questions asked and would be presented with a No Lose situation in terms of legacy and public perception.

When Jackson did an interview, when there were rumors that someone would ask him to simply coach the Knicks, he said less than flattering things about the Knicks roster and franchise. One of the interesting things about Jackson is occasionally in the press, he can be very frank.

Once Dolan backed up a truckload of cash and total power and even the ability to basically "telecommute" if he wanted, then Jackson's tune changed.

If he turns the Knicks around, he's a genius. And he got paid.

If he can't turn the Knicks around, then it's still Dolan's fault because his poor ownership drove the franchise into the ground and the press will eat Melo alive for all of his flaws as a 3rd tier type "franchise" player.

The press LOVES Zen Master. They absolutely LOVE him. He jokes around with them, he gives them quotes, he knows how to manipulate them. They aren't going after him if this Knicks thing doesn't work out.

And while he is on the Knicks, he has the full weight of CAA, with it's reach and media power, to help support his image in the press.

I think he's moving the Knicks in a positive direction (whether it will make them a contender one day or not, who knows) but I've said before that I think you could get 10-15 of these young analytical GMs, the new wave like Ujiri and Hennigan and Cho, and still get generally the same end result. ( i.e. stop making stupid short term decisions and start building a real team based on the market forces at work around you)

Honestly, I think Zen Master took Plan C after his failed attempt to consider marriage to Jeanie Buss would get him indirect power over the Lakers. I think he's laughing his way, all the way, to the bank.

I do think he's got the franchise on a better path but it seems just like Dolan to pay 700 percent more for what he could have gotten anyway for a lot less cost. I'm not sure if Zen Masters huge payday is Jackson's salary or really a self imposed tax on Dolan for his own ineptitude.

I think Jackson just knows how to work a No Lose situation for himself. ( i.e. if he can't win again with the Lakers it's because Kobe is selfish and drove Shaq out and is uncoachable and Buss Jr is an idiot) and if Melo left it's because he's a ring chasing disloyal chucker who had to follow LBJ's coat tails. If he wins with Kobe ( which he did with Gasol), then he's even more of a genius. If Melo stays, it's because he's a "leader of men who commands respect", not that Melo wasn't leaving that much money on the table.

Master manipulator who talked and walked his way into a soft cushy end of the line job that offers No Lose upside. Plus he still gets the attention that his giant ego needs, and who knows, maybe he actually needs the cash. Gotta love the Zen Master. Even if he doesn't win in NY, he basically pimped out the Knicks.

Wow. Glad I don't agree with almost any of this. I am looking forward to what Phil can do and so far it appears that Dolan has moved out of the way like he did for the Rangers. Phil is already a very wealthy man and he is engaged to a very wealthy woman. I think he really wanted the chance to rebuild the knicks. No reason, financial or legacy, makes as much sense in my opinion.

agree 100% anyone who thinks this was just a cash-grab for pjax is lost. he has made a ton of money coaching and jeanie buss is ridiculous wealthy, money is the last thing pjax needed. the cynicism is out of control.

This sounds completely ridiculous, He's won championships on every level, this is more of a challenge. Bringing a Title to NY would put him in class all by himself

I totally agree as well. Sure, Phil is getting paid big bucks but I don't see this as a moneygrab in the sense that he is not committed to doing his best.

One just can't overlook what would be the perfect symmetry of starting his career winning titles with the Knicks and then ending it by guiding the franchise to a title as Prez. I also think Jackson would indubitably consider failing spectacularly in his capstone NBA job a huge blemish on his career. This is a guy who is _not_ used to losing and I don't even think he considers the job unless he is fairly confident in himself and his ability to do it well. The "Phil Moneygrab" theory goes against pretty much everything we know about the guy. It makes no sense.