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Should The Knicks Use A Deep Rotation?
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knicks1248
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9/22/2014  4:07 PM
nixluva wrote:
H1AND1 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Giving STAT ( or any player not in the long term future for the team) is actually kind of insane. Giving STAT those minutes, if he could handle them, if he wasn't a defensive sieve ( I mean an orange traffic cone would do more for the Knicks defense than STAT, at least someone might trip on the cone, whereas STAT is a human turnstile. He makes some of those wretched NY Giants O linemen look like HOFers in comparison with the consistency where guys are blowing past him) is taking minute from Early, THJ, Larkin, Shumpert, guys who the Knicks need to see if they can develop more and establish as either core guys or raise their trade value to move them.

I agree with this. Forget Stat and ESPECIALLY the awful, awful Bargs and the rest of the numbskulls who have no future on the team. We aint winning a chip so lets see what we have in the young'uns and develop them, record be damned. Best case scenario we come out with some keepers with lots more NBA experience instead of benchwarmers and worst case scenario we have another bad season albeit one with a draft pick, a whole lotta cap space, and some nice cheap young players at the end of the tunnel in 2015.

As I just posted above the Knicks closed the season with STAT starting and the team going 16-6. Phil will want to establish a winning culture not just for our own players but future free agents looking at NY. The team isn't going to just ignore the vets cuz they may not be part of the future and it wont benefit the kids to not play to win as much as possible this year. This should be a playoff team and the vets will have major roles to play. Now that we have better leadership and a real system we can see we can see what we have and what needs to be changed more clearly. A deep rotation will allow the kids a chance to show what they can do.

Nix I'm not sure why your hell bent on playing 12 guys, some for 4 and 5 minutes. You posted a article stating the recipe for success, and no where in the article it says playing 12 guys is a part of it.

Establishing a winning culture doesn't start with playing guys token minutes. The knicks have a d-league team for that, the last 3 guys dressed on the bench are injury reserves. The object is for those guys to always be ready, practice hard, and stay in tune.

By the 5th preseason game, your rotation should be set, and you usually have about a wk and a half to build some chemistry coming into the season.

ES
AUTOADVERT
nixluva
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9/22/2014  7:55 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
H1AND1 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Giving STAT ( or any player not in the long term future for the team) is actually kind of insane. Giving STAT those minutes, if he could handle them, if he wasn't a defensive sieve ( I mean an orange traffic cone would do more for the Knicks defense than STAT, at least someone might trip on the cone, whereas STAT is a human turnstile. He makes some of those wretched NY Giants O linemen look like HOFers in comparison with the consistency where guys are blowing past him) is taking minute from Early, THJ, Larkin, Shumpert, guys who the Knicks need to see if they can develop more and establish as either core guys or raise their trade value to move them.

I agree with this. Forget Stat and ESPECIALLY the awful, awful Bargs and the rest of the numbskulls who have no future on the team. We aint winning a chip so lets see what we have in the young'uns and develop them, record be damned. Best case scenario we come out with some keepers with lots more NBA experience instead of benchwarmers and worst case scenario we have another bad season albeit one with a draft pick, a whole lotta cap space, and some nice cheap young players at the end of the tunnel in 2015.

As I just posted above the Knicks closed the season with STAT starting and the team going 16-6. Phil will want to establish a winning culture not just for our own players but future free agents looking at NY. The team isn't going to just ignore the vets cuz they may not be part of the future and it wont benefit the kids to not play to win as much as possible this year. This should be a playoff team and the vets will have major roles to play. Now that we have better leadership and a real system we can see we can see what we have and what needs to be changed more clearly. A deep rotation will allow the kids a chance to show what they can do.

Nix I'm not sure why your hell bent on playing 12 guys, some for 4 and 5 minutes. You posted a article stating the recipe for success, and no where in the article it says playing 12 guys is a part of it.

Establishing a winning culture doesn't start with playing guys token minutes. The knicks have a d-league team for that, the last 3 guys dressed on the bench are injury reserves. The object is for those guys to always be ready, practice hard, and stay in tune.

By the 5th preseason game, your rotation should be set, and you usually have about a wk and a half to build some chemistry coming into the season.

Stop exaggerating. I had a 9 man base rotation with 2 extra guys getting lower minutes as needed. I just wasn't that high on playing Dalembert and would rather see Larkin and Early get some minutes this year. However it works out I think a deeper rotation fits this roster we have now and the Triangle System. There's no need to limit the rotation as you might with teams that play a less team oriented style that is dependent on the top players carrying all team all game. That's what the article was getting at. The Spurs aren't afraid to trust their bench more than the typical team. Those few extra minutes of role players filling in add up over the course of a full season. Do you realize that i'm advocating playing more like the World Champion Spurs? What about that is off base given what we've seen them do the last 2 seasons? They almost won 2 years ago and last year they dominated. No we're not the Spurs but it's an approach that can be applied even to our team.


Player Pos Desc Height Weight DOB Age

Jose Calderon PG Point Guard 6'3' 200 lbs 9/28/1981 32
J.R. Smith SG Shooting Guard 6'6' 220 lbs 9/9/1985 29
Carmelo Anthony SF Small Forward 6'8' 240 lbs 5/29/1984 30
Amare Stoudemire PF Power Forward 6'11' 245 lbs 11/16/1982 31
Jason Smith C Center 7'0' 240 lbs 3/2/1986 28

Pablo Prigioni PG Point Guard 6'3' 185 lbs 5/17/1977 37
Tim Hardaway Jr. SG Shooting Guard 6'6' 205 lbs 3/16/1992 22
Iman Shumpert SF Small Forward 6'5' 220 lbs 6/26/1990 24
Andrea Bargnani PF Power Forward 7'0' 250 lbs 10/26/1985 28

Shane Larkin PG Point Guard 5'11' 176 lbs 10/2/1992 21
Cleanthony Early SF Small Forward 6'8' 219 lbs 4/17/1991 23

Samuel Dalembert C Center 6'11' 250 lbs 5/10/1981 33
Quincy Acy SF Small Forward 6'7' 233 lbs 10/6/1990 23
Cole Aldrich C Center 6'11' 245 lbs 10/31/1988 25
Travis Outlaw SF Small Forward 6'9' 207 lbs 9/18/1984 30

knickknack
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9/23/2014  11:50 AM
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
H1AND1 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Giving STAT ( or any player not in the long term future for the team) is actually kind of insane. Giving STAT those minutes, if he could handle them, if he wasn't a defensive sieve ( I mean an orange traffic cone would do more for the Knicks defense than STAT, at least someone might trip on the cone, whereas STAT is a human turnstile. He makes some of those wretched NY Giants O linemen look like HOFers in comparison with the consistency where guys are blowing past him) is taking minute from Early, THJ, Larkin, Shumpert, guys who the Knicks need to see if they can develop more and establish as either core guys or raise their trade value to move them.

I agree with this. Forget Stat and ESPECIALLY the awful, awful Bargs and the rest of the numbskulls who have no future on the team. We aint winning a chip so lets see what we have in the young'uns and develop them, record be damned. Best case scenario we come out with some keepers with lots more NBA experience instead of benchwarmers and worst case scenario we have another bad season albeit one with a draft pick, a whole lotta cap space, and some nice cheap young players at the end of the tunnel in 2015.

As I just posted above the Knicks closed the season with STAT starting and the team going 16-6. Phil will want to establish a winning culture not just for our own players but future free agents looking at NY. The team isn't going to just ignore the vets cuz they may not be part of the future and it wont benefit the kids to not play to win as much as possible this year. This should be a playoff team and the vets will have major roles to play. Now that we have better leadership and a real system we can see we can see what we have and what needs to be changed more clearly. A deep rotation will allow the kids a chance to show what they can do.

Nix I'm not sure why your hell bent on playing 12 guys, some for 4 and 5 minutes. You posted a article stating the recipe for success, and no where in the article it says playing 12 guys is a part of it.

Establishing a winning culture doesn't start with playing guys token minutes. The knicks have a d-league team for that, the last 3 guys dressed on the bench are injury reserves. The object is for those guys to always be ready, practice hard, and stay in tune.

By the 5th preseason game, your rotation should be set, and you usually have about a wk and a half to build some chemistry coming into the season.

Stop exaggerating. I had a 9 man base rotation with 2 extra guys getting lower minutes as needed. I just wasn't that high on playing Dalembert and would rather see Larkin and Early get some minutes this year. However it works out I think a deeper rotation fits this roster we have now and the Triangle System. There's no need to limit the rotation as you might with teams that play a less team oriented style that is dependent on the top players carrying all team all game. That's what the article was getting at. The Spurs aren't afraid to trust their bench more than the typical team. Those few extra minutes of role players filling in add up over the course of a full season. Do you realize that i'm advocating playing more like the World Champion Spurs? What about that is off base given what we've seen them do the last 2 seasons? They almost won 2 years ago and last year they dominated. No we're not the Spurs but it's an approach that can be applied even to our team.


Player Pos Desc Height Weight DOB Age

Jose Calderon PG Point Guard 6'3' 200 lbs 9/28/1981 32
J.R. Smith SG Shooting Guard 6'6' 220 lbs 9/9/1985 29
Carmelo Anthony SF Small Forward 6'8' 240 lbs 5/29/1984 30
Amare Stoudemire PF Power Forward 6'11' 245 lbs 11/16/1982 31
Jason Smith C Center 7'0' 240 lbs 3/2/1986 28

Pablo Prigioni PG Point Guard 6'3' 185 lbs 5/17/1977 37
Tim Hardaway Jr. SG Shooting Guard 6'6' 205 lbs 3/16/1992 22
Iman Shumpert SF Small Forward 6'5' 220 lbs 6/26/1990 24
Andrea Bargnani PF Power Forward 7'0' 250 lbs 10/26/1985 28

Shane Larkin PG Point Guard 5'11' 176 lbs 10/2/1992 21
Cleanthony Early SF Small Forward 6'8' 219 lbs 4/17/1991 23

Samuel Dalembert C Center 6'11' 250 lbs 5/10/1981 33
Quincy Acy SF Small Forward 6'7' 233 lbs 10/6/1990 23
Cole Aldrich C Center 6'11' 245 lbs 10/31/1988 25
Travis Outlaw SF Small Forward 6'9' 207 lbs 9/18/1984 30

I think playing a deep rotation would offer 2 positives; it would allow older players to rest and the younger players to develop, we saw the value of this in the development of Leonard on the spurs. last year he could contribute in crunch time because he played big minutes all year long. he's a starter so that's not too surprising so a better comparison is probably patty mills. both players had significant roles in their championship run. This year the Knicks have a similar team its split almost down the middle with youth and veterans. in order to get the young guys on the court without the risk of them costing us the game I think its very important to have a offensive minded starting unit that will build up a huge lead in the first quarter n half that the kids can play with later on in the game. this is a realistic goal since that's how the Knicks won a majority of their games 2 years ago. Carmelo is one of the top 1Q scorers in the league and we need to take advantage of that.

trust the kristaps-cess!
RonRon
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9/23/2014  1:59 PM
in my opinion our best defenders as a unit would include

Larkin/Iman
Iman/JR Smith
CA
Acey/Outlaw *this depends on match ups, usually if the PF can hit the 3pt, you must have someone that is capable of going out there*
Center (not sure at this point who would fit best from Dalembert/Jason Smith/Cole Aldrich, possibly even AB

for PG/SG

Larkin/Iman/JR Smith, possibly even Tim Hardaway JR as he has been working on it

*comparable to Barea with his speed/quickness/strength and more athleticism*, Iman could be used if he worked hard this summer and JR Smith at SG if he also regains his top shape he was in prior to his knee surgery*

knickscity
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9/23/2014  4:44 PM
Imo, I dont think Phil nor Fisher is going to be trying to mimic the Spurs methods but rather infuse their own midset and concepts with how they themselves have won.

Preseason I would certainly think everyone will play with the definite core rotation playing less to accomodate such.

But once the regular season kicks in I see no sense in playing upwards of 12 players unless of course the team is enjoying routine blowouts.

nixluva
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9/23/2014  5:06 PM
knickscity wrote:Imo, I dont think Phil nor Fisher is going to be trying to mimic the Spurs methods but rather infuse their own midset and concepts with how they themselves have won.

Preseason I would certainly think everyone will play with the definite core rotation playing less to accomodate such.

But once the regular season kicks in I see no sense in playing upwards of 12 players unless of course the team is enjoying routine blowouts.

1st of all the Spurs are basically using some Triangle and some of MDA's stuff merged with other concepts. The point we're making is that the Spurs make full use of their bench and don't have a guy play nearly 40 minutes like Melo did. You may not see the point of playing more than 9 guys but you don't have a Title team you've been managing. The Spurs saw fit to make use of their role players to a higher degree than other teams. This Knicks team has a Team oriented system and what looks like a lot of plug n play bench players. That says they could run a deep rotation if they choose to. That would save our older guys and prep our younger guys.

knickscity
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9/23/2014  6:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/23/2014  6:15 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Imo, I dont think Phil nor Fisher is going to be trying to mimic the Spurs methods but rather infuse their own midset and concepts with how they themselves have won.

Preseason I would certainly think everyone will play with the definite core rotation playing less to accomodate such.

But once the regular season kicks in I see no sense in playing upwards of 12 players unless of course the team is enjoying routine blowouts.

1st of all the Spurs are basically using some Triangle and some of MDA's stuff merged with other concepts. The point we're making is that the Spurs make full use of their bench and don't have a guy play nearly 40 minutes like Melo did. You may not see the point of playing more than 9 guys but you don't have a Title team you've been managing. The Spurs saw fit to make use of their role players to a higher degree than other teams. This Knicks team has a Team oriented system and what looks like a lot of plug n play bench players. That says they could run a deep rotation if they choose to. That would save our older guys and prep our younger guys.


1) Their team has always been comprised of guys who were acquired, drafted, or traded for that fit their system.....the Knicks arent at this point yet.

2) For regular season purposes Pop has always kept his core he knows he will depend on in the playoffs fresh for the duration of the season. Then at which his playoff rotations are shorter. Once again, the Knicks arent at this point yet.

Duncan in his first 6 years in the league was playing heavy minutes in those high 30's, somtimes over 40. the difference is he was getting older and Pop did what was needed to extend Duncan career. Wont adress the others as Duncan is the main piece, manu and Parker are complimentary.

Now while I definitely agree I dont have a title team, guess what? Neither do YOU. And guess what else....neither does Phil or Fisher at the present moment.

When they did.....Kobe Shaq Jordan and Pippen played a ton of minutes, much more than melo has EVER seen.

Jordan for any season he made the playoffs never played less than 40 minutes per contest in the playoffs and during the regular season was always on of the leaders in minutes played, and thats with Pippen averaging roughly 37 minutes himself.

Kobe hasnt played under 40 per in the playoffs under Phil either, and like Jordan was one of the leaders in regular season minutes as well. Shaq also fits into this usage of playtime as well.

And all of this is while chasing titles meaning these guys were doing it a minimum of 16 games a year on top of their regular season.

For the most part of Melo's career his career playoff games per year is less than 7 since he's only gotten out of the first round twice. 10 years, 66 playoffs games total....absolutely dismal.

What you are hoping for is two guys who've actually won to change how they won, and they've both especially Phil has won way more than the Spurs whom Phil does even recognize as his equal, and quite frankly they arent.

If you really believe Melo wont play heavy minutes, expect disappointment, he's gonna play alot of minutes and he should if the team has any chance of winning games. melo is literally the only player we can confidently guarantee will even be on the team in the future.

Do you honestly think this team is deeper than the teams Phil has won with before and the teams Fisher has played on as well?

i hope not.

CrushAlot
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9/23/2014  7:36 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
nixluva wrote:As I just posted above the Knicks closed the season with STAT starting and the team going 16-6. Phil will want to establish a winning culture not just for our own players but future free agents looking at NY. The team isn't going to just ignore the vets cuz they may not be part of the future and it wont benefit the kids to not play to win as much as possible this year. This should be a playoff team and the vets will have major roles to play. Now that we have better leadership and a real system we can see we can see what we have and what needs to be changed more clearly. A deep rotation will allow the kids a chance to show what they can do.


You're comparing the methodology of the CURRENT World Champion San Antonio Spurs to the CURRENT New York Knicks?

There are many positives about team basketball and discipline that the Knicks can draw from the Spurs, but to emulate their rotations and usage and expect that to translate as simply as you make it onto the Knicks roster is pretty much insane.

Minnesota
Utah
Cleveland
Philly
Boston
Milwaukee
Indiana
Philly
Sacramento
Golden State
Utah
Brooklyn
Toronto
Chicago
Brooklyn
Toronto

Those were the last 16 wins for the Knicks in 2013.

Philly won a whopping 19 games and spent the last two years, and will this year, in pure tank mode. After the deadline, they moved Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes to boot. Their first round pick, Noel, spent the entire year injured.

Utah was a dysfunctional 25 win team in the loaded West.

Cleveland had a nightmare year, their first round pick Bennett had maybe the worst first year of any No 1 overall pick, they made multiple trades that backfired on them and canned their GM and coach. They were a 33 win team where the two best players, a chronically hurt Irving and Waiters could not play together well.

Boston was a 25 win team clearly in tank/rebuilding mode. They spent the offseason before this one trying to offload every asset they could for picks. They spent the entire last season trying to dump the rest of their roster.

Milwaukee won 15 games. In the fairly pathetic East to boot.

Sacramento was another dysfunctional 28 win team.

Indiana was imploding as the season went on, limping into the playoffs from their first half steam. The Danny Granger trade and regression by Hibbert and Stephenson caused massive turmoil on their roster.

The T Wolves were a sub 500 team embroiled in the "Will He/Won't He" Kevin Love saga.

The Nets have/had a crippled old roster that is capped out and taxed out. They are a playoff squad by virtue of the weak Eastern Conference.

You have a collection of near the end of the season wins against bad teams with bad records, some clearly tanking out, and some teams resting their players/setting their rotations for the playoffs and not looking to push 150 percent for a late season win that won't dramatically change their playoff situation.

Toronto and the Bulls were neck and neck for the 3 and 4 seed, do you think they were going to hit afterburners for the right to take on the Hawks instead of the Bobcats?

You are the worst kind of homer, you cherry pick data, ignore the full spectrum of said data, and then essentially use that to somehow justify why Amare Stoudamire is going to be a huge turning point for the Knicks this year. A guy with bad knees, who can't/won't play defense, with an insured contract that no one wants in trade and creates more limitations on the court than he does positives.

The Spurs can handle a big rotation because their 3 core players have played together FOR A DECADE. Even the reserves have played together several years. The Knicks have nowhere near that stability, talent and/or continuity on their roster.

If the Knicks were so hell bent on winning this year and trying to make a deep playoff run, they wouldn't have traded their only legitimate starting center, esp on a team that rates this poor defensively across the board.

You're theory of a deep rotation is insane. Under your guidance, the Knicks would use STAT until he broke down, until that point, his negative defense would put the Knicks in such a hole each game, that the rookies would only be playing in blowouts, on the wrong side of blowouts, chucking up threes trying to make up the difference. Sorry, a end of the season sample against tanking teams, teams with losing records and teams focusing on the playoffs instead of some late regular season win is not indicative of what the Knicks will fact in the entire of 2014.

You cite Zen Master and Fish as some gurus with a major plan and system ( as if any team in modern history took to the Triangle easily, sorry but many teams trying to incorporate it have failed) but insist they embark on a plan that makes no sense to anyone but you.

Can we apply this same logic to a 7 game win streak in February of 2012 when the combined records of those teams was well below .500?
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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9/23/2014  7:58 PM
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Imo, I dont think Phil nor Fisher is going to be trying to mimic the Spurs methods but rather infuse their own midset and concepts with how they themselves have won.

Preseason I would certainly think everyone will play with the definite core rotation playing less to accomodate such.

But once the regular season kicks in I see no sense in playing upwards of 12 players unless of course the team is enjoying routine blowouts.

1st of all the Spurs are basically using some Triangle and some of MDA's stuff merged with other concepts. The point we're making is that the Spurs make full use of their bench and don't have a guy play nearly 40 minutes like Melo did. You may not see the point of playing more than 9 guys but you don't have a Title team you've been managing. The Spurs saw fit to make use of their role players to a higher degree than other teams. This Knicks team has a Team oriented system and what looks like a lot of plug n play bench players. That says they could run a deep rotation if they choose to. That would save our older guys and prep our younger guys.


1) Their team has always been comprised of guys who were acquired, drafted, or traded for that fit their system.....the Knicks arent at this point yet.

2) For regular season purposes Pop has always kept his core he knows he will depend on in the playoffs fresh for the duration of the season. Then at which his playoff rotations are shorter. Once again, the Knicks arent at this point yet.

Duncan in his first 6 years in the league was playing heavy minutes in those high 30's, somtimes over 40. the difference is he was getting older and Pop did what was needed to extend Duncan career. Wont adress the others as Duncan is the main piece, manu and Parker are complimentary.

Now while I definitely agree I dont have a title team, guess what? Neither do YOU. And guess what else....neither does Phil or Fisher at the present moment.

When they did.....Kobe Shaq Jordan and Pippen played a ton of minutes, much more than melo has EVER seen.

Jordan for any season he made the playoffs never played less than 40 minutes per contest in the playoffs and during the regular season was always on of the leaders in minutes played, and thats with Pippen averaging roughly 37 minutes himself.

Kobe hasnt played under 40 per in the playoffs under Phil either, and like Jordan was one of the leaders in regular season minutes as well. Shaq also fits into this usage of playtime as well.

And all of this is while chasing titles meaning these guys were doing it a minimum of 16 games a year on top of their regular season.

For the most part of Melo's career his career playoff games per year is less than 7 since he's only gotten out of the first round twice. 10 years, 66 playoffs games total....absolutely dismal.

What you are hoping for is two guys who've actually won to change how they won, and they've both especially Phil has won way more than the Spurs whom Phil does even recognize as his equal, and quite frankly they arent.

If you really believe Melo wont play heavy minutes, expect disappointment, he's gonna play alot of minutes and he should if the team has any chance of winning games. melo is literally the only player we can confidently guarantee will even be on the team in the future.

Do you honestly think this team is deeper than the teams Phil has won with before and the teams Fisher has played on as well?

i hope not.

I'm not saying anything that Phil hasn't said. I think he wants to take some of the load off his older guys including Melo. That's the whole point of drafting Early and adding Outlaw. Just to have someone behind Melo to be able to give him a blow.

Early is so enthusiastic about working under Jackson, he’s reading one of Jackson’s many books to, as Early said, “get a head start.’’
“I think a lot of people like Early, and I think one of the hesitations is, in this weird world we’re in now, is that he is 23 years old,’’ Jackson said on an MSG Network broadcast this week. “People are looking for 19-, 20-year-old players to come in, and we said we want a mature player. Get a guy that maybe … can step in the lineup and start playing. A lot of kids, they are still developing physically. He is a developed player physically.’’

“He admired San Antonio’s game and how they played, and that’s the way we want to play,” Jackson said of Melo’s prospects on becoming a ball-mover.

We’ve seen Anthony shy away from dribbling and transform into a leading catch-and-shoot player in the past. That is what we call Olympic Carmelo. In the NBA, that style still has a chance to consume Melo’s game, though it doesn’t need to all the time. Anthony’s ability to create on his own remains one of the most valuable assets the Knicks have.

“You need to have that man who can get shots on his own,” Jackson theorizes about NBA offense. “Then, you have a guy that’s a great bailout guy in Carmelo.”


The Knicks appear to have a potential opening for minutes behind Carmelo Anthony at small forward on their roster. Second-round draft pick Cleanthony Early, having signed his rookie contract over the weekend, said winning that job is his goal heading into training camp.
“Melo is a small forward, he can play the power forward, I’m a small forward, and I think I can play a little power forward,” Early said Sunday at the NBA’s annual rookie photo shoot. “I’ll be backing him up, so as far as my role it’s Melo’s backup. … How many minutes I get depends on how much I produce and how well I do, so that’s all on me.”

I have a better feeling about the talent on this roster than you apparently. I think Phil tweaked the roster just enough to make the chemistry much better and the roster is perfectly balanced at every position. This system is made to feature role players and make them better. Phil has the roster full of interchangeable players in terms of their ability. We don't have to rely on a short rotation just to win regular season games.

nixluva
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9/23/2014  8:17 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
nixluva wrote:As I just posted above the Knicks closed the season with STAT starting and the team going 16-6. Phil will want to establish a winning culture not just for our own players but future free agents looking at NY. The team isn't going to just ignore the vets cuz they may not be part of the future and it wont benefit the kids to not play to win as much as possible this year. This should be a playoff team and the vets will have major roles to play. Now that we have better leadership and a real system we can see we can see what we have and what needs to be changed more clearly. A deep rotation will allow the kids a chance to show what they can do.


You're comparing the methodology of the CURRENT World Champion San Antonio Spurs to the CURRENT New York Knicks?

There are many positives about team basketball and discipline that the Knicks can draw from the Spurs, but to emulate their rotations and usage and expect that to translate as simply as you make it onto the Knicks roster is pretty much insane.

Minnesota
Utah
Cleveland
Philly
Boston
Milwaukee
Indiana
Philly
Sacramento
Golden State
Utah
Brooklyn
Toronto
Chicago
Brooklyn
Toronto

Those were the last 16 wins for the Knicks in 2013.

Philly won a whopping 19 games and spent the last two years, and will this year, in pure tank mode. After the deadline, they moved Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes to boot. Their first round pick, Noel, spent the entire year injured.

Utah was a dysfunctional 25 win team in the loaded West.

Cleveland had a nightmare year, their first round pick Bennett had maybe the worst first year of any No 1 overall pick, they made multiple trades that backfired on them and canned their GM and coach. They were a 33 win team where the two best players, a chronically hurt Irving and Waiters could not play together well.

Boston was a 25 win team clearly in tank/rebuilding mode. They spent the offseason before this one trying to offload every asset they could for picks. They spent the entire last season trying to dump the rest of their roster.

Milwaukee won 15 games. In the fairly pathetic East to boot.

Sacramento was another dysfunctional 28 win team.

Indiana was imploding as the season went on, limping into the playoffs from their first half steam. The Danny Granger trade and regression by Hibbert and Stephenson caused massive turmoil on their roster.

The T Wolves were a sub 500 team embroiled in the "Will He/Won't He" Kevin Love saga.

The Nets have/had a crippled old roster that is capped out and taxed out. They are a playoff squad by virtue of the weak Eastern Conference.

You have a collection of near the end of the season wins against bad teams with bad records, some clearly tanking out, and some teams resting their players/setting their rotations for the playoffs and not looking to push 150 percent for a late season win that won't dramatically change their playoff situation.

Toronto and the Bulls were neck and neck for the 3 and 4 seed, do you think they were going to hit afterburners for the right to take on the Hawks instead of the Bobcats?

You are the worst kind of homer, you cherry pick data, ignore the full spectrum of said data, and then essentially use that to somehow justify why Amare Stoudamire is going to be a huge turning point for the Knicks this year. A guy with bad knees, who can't/won't play defense, with an insured contract that no one wants in trade and creates more limitations on the court than he does positives.

The Spurs can handle a big rotation because their 3 core players have played together FOR A DECADE. Even the reserves have played together several years. The Knicks have nowhere near that stability, talent and/or continuity on their roster.

If the Knicks were so hell bent on winning this year and trying to make a deep playoff run, they wouldn't have traded their only legitimate starting center, esp on a team that rates this poor defensively across the board.

You're theory of a deep rotation is insane. Under your guidance, the Knicks would use STAT until he broke down, until that point, his negative defense would put the Knicks in such a hole each game, that the rookies would only be playing in blowouts, on the wrong side of blowouts, chucking up threes trying to make up the difference. Sorry, a end of the season sample against tanking teams, teams with losing records and teams focusing on the playoffs instead of some late regular season win is not indicative of what the Knicks will fact in the entire of 2014.

You cite Zen Master and Fish as some gurus with a major plan and system ( as if any team in modern history took to the Triangle easily, sorry but many teams trying to incorporate it have failed) but insist they embark on a plan that makes no sense to anyone but you.

Can we apply this same logic to a 7 game win streak in February of 2012 when the combined records of those teams was well below .500?

It's ok Crush. The strength of schedule to end the year wasn't really as important as the fact that the team finally started playing as it should have all year. TripleThreat can try to poo poo the way the team closed the year but it was wins against the same teams we couldn't beat earlier in the year when the team was underperforming.

Here's the underlying issue. We have a group of fans who think this team sucks and is much closer to the 37 wins we saw last year than a playoff team their talent suggests they should be. These same fans don't give any credit to Phil, Fish or the staff as being capable of fielding a winning team. They won't be happy until we have KD, Lebron and CP3! There is no sense of reason about the process of remaking this team and just taking this coming season for what it is. We can't magically change the team. It's a process. Meanwhile Phil isn't just throwing this year away. This team needs to have a good year and establish the new culture for the future.

knickscity
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9/23/2014  8:18 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/23/2014  8:19 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Imo, I dont think Phil nor Fisher is going to be trying to mimic the Spurs methods but rather infuse their own midset and concepts with how they themselves have won.

Preseason I would certainly think everyone will play with the definite core rotation playing less to accomodate such.

But once the regular season kicks in I see no sense in playing upwards of 12 players unless of course the team is enjoying routine blowouts.

1st of all the Spurs are basically using some Triangle and some of MDA's stuff merged with other concepts. The point we're making is that the Spurs make full use of their bench and don't have a guy play nearly 40 minutes like Melo did. You may not see the point of playing more than 9 guys but you don't have a Title team you've been managing. The Spurs saw fit to make use of their role players to a higher degree than other teams. This Knicks team has a Team oriented system and what looks like a lot of plug n play bench players. That says they could run a deep rotation if they choose to. That would save our older guys and prep our younger guys.


1) Their team has always been comprised of guys who were acquired, drafted, or traded for that fit their system.....the Knicks arent at this point yet.

2) For regular season purposes Pop has always kept his core he knows he will depend on in the playoffs fresh for the duration of the season. Then at which his playoff rotations are shorter. Once again, the Knicks arent at this point yet.

Duncan in his first 6 years in the league was playing heavy minutes in those high 30's, somtimes over 40. the difference is he was getting older and Pop did what was needed to extend Duncan career. Wont adress the others as Duncan is the main piece, manu and Parker are complimentary.

Now while I definitely agree I dont have a title team, guess what? Neither do YOU. And guess what else....neither does Phil or Fisher at the present moment.

When they did.....Kobe Shaq Jordan and Pippen played a ton of minutes, much more than melo has EVER seen.

Jordan for any season he made the playoffs never played less than 40 minutes per contest in the playoffs and during the regular season was always on of the leaders in minutes played, and thats with Pippen averaging roughly 37 minutes himself.

Kobe hasnt played under 40 per in the playoffs under Phil either, and like Jordan was one of the leaders in regular season minutes as well. Shaq also fits into this usage of playtime as well.

And all of this is while chasing titles meaning these guys were doing it a minimum of 16 games a year on top of their regular season.

For the most part of Melo's career his career playoff games per year is less than 7 since he's only gotten out of the first round twice. 10 years, 66 playoffs games total....absolutely dismal.

What you are hoping for is two guys who've actually won to change how they won, and they've both especially Phil has won way more than the Spurs whom Phil does even recognize as his equal, and quite frankly they arent.

If you really believe Melo wont play heavy minutes, expect disappointment, he's gonna play alot of minutes and he should if the team has any chance of winning games. melo is literally the only player we can confidently guarantee will even be on the team in the future.

Do you honestly think this team is deeper than the teams Phil has won with before and the teams Fisher has played on as well?

i hope not.

I'm not saying anything that Phil hasn't said. I think he wants to take some of the load off his older guys including Melo. That's the whole point of drafting Early and adding Outlaw. Just to have someone behind Melo to be able to give him a blow.

Early is so enthusiastic about working under Jackson, he’s reading one of Jackson’s many books to, as Early said, “get a head start.’’
“I think a lot of people like Early, and I think one of the hesitations is, in this weird world we’re in now, is that he is 23 years old,’’ Jackson said on an MSG Network broadcast this week. “People are looking for 19-, 20-year-old players to come in, and we said we want a mature player. Get a guy that maybe … can step in the lineup and start playing. A lot of kids, they are still developing physically. He is a developed player physically.’’

“He admired San Antonio’s game and how they played, and that’s the way we want to play,” Jackson said of Melo’s prospects on becoming a ball-mover.

We’ve seen Anthony shy away from dribbling and transform into a leading catch-and-shoot player in the past. That is what we call Olympic Carmelo. In the NBA, that style still has a chance to consume Melo’s game, though it doesn’t need to all the time. Anthony’s ability to create on his own remains one of the most valuable assets the Knicks have.

“You need to have that man who can get shots on his own,” Jackson theorizes about NBA offense. “Then, you have a guy that’s a great bailout guy in Carmelo.”


The Knicks appear to have a potential opening for minutes behind Carmelo Anthony at small forward on their roster. Second-round draft pick Cleanthony Early, having signed his rookie contract over the weekend, said winning that job is his goal heading into training camp.
“Melo is a small forward, he can play the power forward, I’m a small forward, and I think I can play a little power forward,” Early said Sunday at the NBA’s annual rookie photo shoot. “I’ll be backing him up, so as far as my role it’s Melo’s backup. … How many minutes I get depends on how much I produce and how well I do, so that’s all on me.”

I have a better feeling about the talent on this roster than you apparently. I think Phil tweaked the roster just enough to make the chemistry much better and the roster is perfectly balanced at every position. This system is made to feature role players and make them better. Phil has the roster full of interchangeable players in terms of their ability. We don't have to rely on a short rotation just to win regular season games.


What Phil says and what he does arent always one and the same.

Phil is on record dismissing the Spurs, he isnt that fond of them and even in your quote he was only talking about their ball movement, not their minutes alotment or rotations.

All legit offenses have ball and player movement....the Spurs arent some mythical creature in that aspect.

Lets make this a little fun.....Be honest, how many minutes do you think Melo will average? I have 37 minutes with a usage of 33.

nixluva
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9/23/2014  10:01 PM
MPG isn't really the only way to look at how they try to manage the roster. Phil brought balance to the roster and depth. He stated that he wanted Early behind Melo but if he wasn't ready he added other options. Phil said he didn't want Melo to carry the full load but that could also mean he gets more days off a la the Spurs in addition to a few less minutes per game. Melo clearly wore down in games last year and not just because of the MPG but also due to the grind it out ISO style which is more fatiguing than a catch and shoot plus being more of a passer role for Melo. Melo could log the same minutes but they won't be such hard minutes as we saw last year. This style of play should make things easier for everyone but most of all for Melo.

The Spurs operated a team concept at a higher level than we've seen in a long time. It's not accurate to say they are just like any other Ball and Player system. What they run is a hybrid of different systems. More than that is their discipline to stick with the principles of sharing the ball. That's what Phil believes in and what this team will be working towards.

LAS VEGAS -- Derek Fisher grinned at the suggestion that the championship success of the San Antonio Spurs this past season -- winning with a foundation of team play over individual talent -- might have helped him sell the message of the Triangle Offense to Carmelo Anthony.

“It’s ironic that the Spurs did anything to help me, as a former Laker,” said Fisher, known well for his "Point-Four Shot,” the game-winning basket with 0.4 seconds left in a pivotal Game 5 against the Spurs in the 2004 Western Conference semifinals.

“But, in my opinion, I don’t know if what the Spurs have done, or have been doing, has ever changed,” Fisher continued. “Basketball has always been a team game. We talk a lot about Big Threes and superstars, and which team are they going to and which three or four guys are going to be playing together. But at the end of the day, it’s the best team that ultimately wins a championship.

“We hope to be that one day, but right now we have to start at the beginning and that’s becoming a team. But we think this offense will help us.”

It helps that they’ll have one of the game’s best scorers in that offense. But for Melo, his transition into this system -- which brought great success to Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O’Neal and Pau Gasol -- won’t be about how well he can score in it. But, instead, how well he can play in it.

The system demands not just ball movement, but player movement. We’re getting a little taste of it in Summer League play right now and what you see is the ball goes to the high- or mid-post, and players on both sides of the court begin cuts and screens, creating movement and options. It’s not going to involve high screen-and-rolls with the point guard dominating the ball and shooters in the corners. It’s not going to involve isolating Carmelo Anthony on the wing and having stand-still kick-out options for him when the double-team comes.

Melo is going to have to play within the movement. TNT’s David Aldridge asked Fisher if he has imagined Melo in the “pinch post” similarly to how Pippen thrived in the offense. It would open up a lot of room for Melo, because the pinch post sets up on the weak side elbow. There are various options once he gets the ball and most of them include passing the ball, something Pippen thrived at as a “point-forward” on those great Bulls teams. But with all of the movement, it also creates spacing for Melo to get off his dangerously quick release mid-range shot.

“Oh yeah,” Fisher said to that idea. “I imagined it quite a bit. It’s an area he likes to operate before even playing in this system.”

Fisher then quickly tagged his reaction with a thought that both he and Phil Jackson routinely hammer home.

“But it’s important we don’t put him there and then just watch him play, which is easy to do with great players,” Fisher said. “We have to have things going on around him, wherever he catches the basketball, that will allow him to make his pla,y but also be able to make a play for his teammates. And that will make the game easy for him.”

The new mindset of the NBA is that stars need more talent -- preferably other stars -- around them to thrive. The idea is putting two or three stars together takes the burden off one star. But Fisher believes the right system -- and the development of trust within teammates, which is a page torn out of the Spurs playbook -- can do that too.

Jackson will point out that despite the perception that his success came from coaching some of the game’s best players, only once did he have more than two all-stars from his teams in a single year. And it’s worth noting that over the last 40 years, there have been three all-stars on a single NBA team 35 times. And the only one from a Phil Jackson-coached team? It came in 1994 when Pippen, BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were named to the team. Not exactly a superstar lineup there.

Fisher believes Melo is ready to buy into the system that made champions out of Jordan, Pippen, Kobe and Shaq and the philosophy that has made the Spurs one of the great franchises in sports.

“In conversations I’ve had with him, that’s what he wants,” Fisher said. “He doesn’t want us to give him the basketball and just say, ‘Save the day.’ He wants to be in an environment where everybody’s effective. He wants a balanced basketball team and that’s what we need to build.”

knickscity
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9/23/2014  11:15 PM
When you get done, Melo is gonna be out there playing alot of minutes with a high usage and that is NOT the way the Spurs currently do it.

Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant this early on, the team isnt anywhere near a complete product to see the vision you think it will be.

thats two years from now at best.

nixluva
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9/24/2014  12:11 AM
knickscity wrote:When you get done, Melo is gonna be out there playing alot of minutes with a high usage and that is NOT the way the Spurs currently do it.

Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant this early on, the team isnt anywhere near a complete product to see the vision you think it will be.

thats two years from now at best.

Why not have your best player involved a lot? Jordan resisted the Triangle at 1st he didn't buy in but people forget that now. Once Jordan bought in he saw that he still got plenty of touches and shots and he still was a top scorer BUT the rest of the team was more involved and better able to contribute. Jordan didn't have to do it all every night. That is the key point and not obsessing on Melo's MPG.

The reason I keep posting the words of Phil and Fish is to shiw you that I'm not making this up. These are he things they themselves are saying. So you can keeping saying I'm wrong but I'm basing my points on what they are saying they want to do.

Why does the team have to be a "complete product" in order to play the way Phil and Fish teach them to play? They may not be the best possible but they can surely execute the new system and set the direction for the franchise going forward. I can promise you that Phil and Fish expect this team to battle for a playoff spot if not the Division Title. They're trying to win now.

knickscity
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9/24/2014  4:16 AM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:When you get done, Melo is gonna be out there playing alot of minutes with a high usage and that is NOT the way the Spurs currently do it.

Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant this early on, the team isnt anywhere near a complete product to see the vision you think it will be.

thats two years from now at best.

Why not have your best player involved a lot? Jordan resisted the Triangle at 1st he didn't buy in but people forget that now. Once Jordan bought in he saw that he still got plenty of touches and shots and he still was a top scorer BUT the rest of the team was more involved and better able to contribute. Jordan didn't have to do it all every night. That is the key point and not obsessing on Melo's MPG.

The reason I keep posting the words of Phil and Fish is to shiw you that I'm not making this up. These are he things they themselves are saying. So you can keeping saying I'm wrong but I'm basing my points on what they are saying they want to do.

Why does the team have to be a "complete product" in order to play the way Phil and Fish teach them to play? They may not be the best possible but they can surely execute the new system and set the direction for the franchise going forward. I can promise you that Phil and Fish expect this team to battle for a playoff spot if not the Division Title. They're trying to win now.


MJ knew he was on the verge of actually winning a title, the Bulls werent a first round flameout, they yearly battled the best and when Phil took over after being the assitant coach of the team, the Bulls had just went to the ECF. They were on the way with or without Phil....same as the Lakers. The Knicks arent anywhere close to that.

Personally i could care less how many minutes melo plays...but that was the point of this thread...your thread.....minutes. Your idea, not Phil's idea is a deep rotation. Phil and Fisher would like to make the game easier for Melo they've said nothing to imply he'd play less. Thats your hopes.

Did you not write the following in your opening post?.....

It's not easy but I think it would be good to try playing this way. This team has a lot of similarly talented players with few that stand out above the rest. You could make an argument for a ton of different lineups and you wouldn't be wrong. We have guys that don't require a lot of minutes and would still perform about the same. Then when Fish gets a chance he can extend role player minutes in blowouts and give starter days off during the year. I'd like to give a kid like Early some minutes rather than burn Melo 40 minutes a night. IMO no reason Larkin can't get minutes and keep Jose fresh.

What Phil and Fisher hopes for and what will be the likely result may very well be different THIS year. The team might make the playoffs....they might not. To be honest with you I think Fisher by the end of the year will deviate from the triangle altogether.

But I'll table that for a latter day.

nixluva
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9/24/2014  2:26 PM
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:When you get done, Melo is gonna be out there playing alot of minutes with a high usage and that is NOT the way the Spurs currently do it.

Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant this early on, the team isnt anywhere near a complete product to see the vision you think it will be.

thats two years from now at best.

Why not have your best player involved a lot? Jordan resisted the Triangle at 1st he didn't buy in but people forget that now. Once Jordan bought in he saw that he still got plenty of touches and shots and he still was a top scorer BUT the rest of the team was more involved and better able to contribute. Jordan didn't have to do it all every night. That is the key point and not obsessing on Melo's MPG.

The reason I keep posting the words of Phil and Fish is to shiw you that I'm not making this up. These are he things they themselves are saying. So you can keeping saying I'm wrong but I'm basing my points on what they are saying they want to do.

Why does the team have to be a "complete product" in order to play the way Phil and Fish teach them to play? They may not be the best possible but they can surely execute the new system and set the direction for the franchise going forward. I can promise you that Phil and Fish expect this team to battle for a playoff spot if not the Division Title. They're trying to win now.


MJ knew he was on the verge of actually winning a title, the Bulls werent a first round flameout, they yearly battled the best and when Phil took over after being the assitant coach of the team, the Bulls had just went to the ECF. They were on the way with or without Phil....same as the Lakers. The Knicks arent anywhere close to that.

Personally i could care less how many minutes melo plays...but that was the point of this thread...your thread.....minutes. Your idea, not Phil's idea is a deep rotation. Phil and Fisher would like to make the game easier for Melo they've said nothing to imply he'd play less. Thats your hopes.

Did you not write the following in your opening post?.....

It's not easy but I think it would be good to try playing this way. This team has a lot of similarly talented players with few that stand out above the rest. You could make an argument for a ton of different lineups and you wouldn't be wrong. We have guys that don't require a lot of minutes and would still perform about the same. Then when Fish gets a chance he can extend role player minutes in blowouts and give starter days off during the year. I'd like to give a kid like Early some minutes rather than burn Melo 40 minutes a night. IMO no reason Larkin can't get minutes and keep Jose fresh.

What Phil and Fisher hopes for and what will be the likely result may very well be different THIS year. The team might make the playoffs....they might not. To be honest with you I think Fisher by the end of the year will deviate from the triangle altogether.

But I'll table that for a latter day.


It is Phil and Fish's hope that Cleanthony Early is capable of playing behind Melo but whoever it is, I think they will try NOT to burn Melo out like he was last year. As I said if that means a few games off or less minutes per game or simply taking some of the pressure off of him and making the game easier, it doesn't really matter. Phil and Fish want to make Melo more efficient and that would allow him to actually play a bit less and be stronger finishing games. Woody really abused Melo last year in terms of how he had him play and his minutes. That style of play with heavy ISO and long minutes is not a good move. In 42 losses Melo avg'd 40 MPG!!! Melo is 30 now and it would not hurt for him to play 35-37 mpg.

Melo Wins/Losses
GP MIN FGM FGA FG% 3FGM 3FGA 3FG% FTM FTA FT% OREB DREB REB AST TOV STL BLK PF DD2 TD3 PTS +/-
Wins 35 37.2 10.0 20.8 48.2% 2.3 5.2 43.2% 5.8 6.8 84.9% 1.3 6.1 7.4 3.7 2.5 1.5 0.7 2.8 8 0 28.1 11.8
Losses 42 40.0 9.3 21.8 42.8% 2.1 5.5 37.9% 6.1 7.2 84.8% 2.4 6.3 8.7 2.7 2.7 1.0 0.6 3.0 14 0 26.9 -7.3

I totally disagree with your assessment of this team. Last year this team had multiple games that they lost after building double digit leads. If they can be more consistent in how they play for 48 minutes they can hold on and win games they should win rather than blowing huge leads like they did last year. Not to mention the games they lost late due to poor decision making and execution. Now with Phil and Fish in charge this team should have a better level of performance in those situations.

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9/24/2014  5:10 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:When you get done, Melo is gonna be out there playing alot of minutes with a high usage and that is NOT the way the Spurs currently do it.

Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant this early on, the team isnt anywhere near a complete product to see the vision you think it will be.

thats two years from now at best.

Why not have your best player involved a lot? Jordan resisted the Triangle at 1st he didn't buy in but people forget that now. Once Jordan bought in he saw that he still got plenty of touches and shots and he still was a top scorer BUT the rest of the team was more involved and better able to contribute. Jordan didn't have to do it all every night. That is the key point and not obsessing on Melo's MPG.

The reason I keep posting the words of Phil and Fish is to shiw you that I'm not making this up. These are he things they themselves are saying. So you can keeping saying I'm wrong but I'm basing my points on what they are saying they want to do.

Why does the team have to be a "complete product" in order to play the way Phil and Fish teach them to play? They may not be the best possible but they can surely execute the new system and set the direction for the franchise going forward. I can promise you that Phil and Fish expect this team to battle for a playoff spot if not the Division Title. They're trying to win now.


MJ knew he was on the verge of actually winning a title, the Bulls werent a first round flameout, they yearly battled the best and when Phil took over after being the assitant coach of the team, the Bulls had just went to the ECF. They were on the way with or without Phil....same as the Lakers. The Knicks arent anywhere close to that.

Personally i could care less how many minutes melo plays...but that was the point of this thread...your thread.....minutes. Your idea, not Phil's idea is a deep rotation. Phil and Fisher would like to make the game easier for Melo they've said nothing to imply he'd play less. Thats your hopes.

Did you not write the following in your opening post?.....

It's not easy but I think it would be good to try playing this way. This team has a lot of similarly talented players with few that stand out above the rest. You could make an argument for a ton of different lineups and you wouldn't be wrong. We have guys that don't require a lot of minutes and would still perform about the same. Then when Fish gets a chance he can extend role player minutes in blowouts and give starter days off during the year. I'd like to give a kid like Early some minutes rather than burn Melo 40 minutes a night. IMO no reason Larkin can't get minutes and keep Jose fresh.

What Phil and Fisher hopes for and what will be the likely result may very well be different THIS year. The team might make the playoffs....they might not. To be honest with you I think Fisher by the end of the year will deviate from the triangle altogether.

But I'll table that for a latter day.


It is Phil and Fish's hope that Cleanthony Early is capable of playing behind Melo but whoever it is, I think they will try NOT to burn Melo out like he was last year. As I said if that means a few games off or less minutes per game or simply taking some of the pressure off of him and making the game easier, it doesn't really matter. Phil and Fish want to make Melo more efficient and that would allow him to actually play a bit less and be stronger finishing games. Woody really abused Melo last year in terms of how he had him play and his minutes. That style of play with heavy ISO and long minutes is not a good move. In 42 losses Melo avg'd 40 MPG!!! Melo is 30 now and it would not hurt for him to play 35-37 mpg.

Please, melo abused himself by not being in shape to play the minutes required to win games....and it's exactly why he has gotten himself in better shape THIS YEAR. Phil DEMANDED it, ironically Woody did as well when he took over.

Kinda amazing how two straight superiors are demanding their star to be in better shape.

Melo's gonna play and gonna play alot. if you think Melo gonna miss a full quarter of basketball per contest or more by even insinuating he'll play as low as 35 as a player in his prime....man i have no words.

nixluva wrote:I totally disagree with your assessment of this team. Last year this team had multiple games that they lost after building double digit leads. If they can be more consistent in how they play for 48 minutes they can hold on and win games they should win rather than blowing huge leads like they did last year. Not to mention the games they lost late due to poor decision making and execution. Now with Phil and Fish in charge this team should have a better level of performance in those situations.

You disagreed with me last year as well, so I pretty much expect it. But even though I truly hope not, I do believe you will be disappointed again.

Not even sure what you're referring to on blowing leads...basketball is a game of runs. there's no such thing as games they "should win".

This team had a record of 19-22 in games decided by 10 points or more. That means while they enjoyed 19 blowouts, they were on the losing end of that for 22 times which is slightly more than a quarter of the season.

And when you use the same data you sported in melo's wins and losses....

In wins Melo shot 48% from the field....in losses 42%. That's where your main inconsistency came from, and the team basically mirrored it. He shot more and hit less.

But once again you will see this team as currently constructed isnt in reality any better than the team last year.

Defensively they are worse....offensively they might be as well if Fisher is hell bent on a system that may not fit his personnel.

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9/24/2014  10:15 PM
knickscity wrote:Please, melo abused himself by not being in shape to play the minutes required to win games....and it's exactly why he has gotten himself in better shape THIS YEAR. Phil DEMANDED it, ironically Woody did as well when he took over.

Kinda amazing how two straight superiors are demanding their star to be in better shape.

Melo's gonna play and gonna play alot. if you think Melo gonna miss a full quarter of basketball per contest or more by even insinuating he'll play as low as 35 as a player in his prime....man i have no words.

Once again I said "Melo is 30 now and it would not hurt for him to play 35-37 mpg." Stop purposefully exaggerating what i've said to try and make what i'm saying sound extreme. There's nothing extreme about saying Melo shouldn't be playing 40 mpg. In wins Melo avg'd 37 mpg so if we play better BB, in particular if Melo is more efficient and the team as a whole is more productive, then he won't have to play 40 mpg.

I've laid out what I think this team should do and much of it is based on things Phil and Fish have said themselves about the team. You don't like the team and that's fine, but Fish and Phil believe this is a playoff team. I know it's easy to jump on me because of the disaster that was last year, but that has nothing to do with what the real potential of this team should've been then nor what it should be now. This team underachieved massively last year!!! There's no other way to assess what happened after a 54 win season to drop to 37 wins. Now this team has 7 new players, a new Prez, Coaching staff with championship experience and a proven system. The roster is much better balanced than last year as well.

It's all too easy to take pot shots at my points. Please detail what your expectations for this team should be this year and how they should play their rotation. I've listed my thoughts. What do you say?

knickscity
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9/24/2014  11:25 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Please, melo abused himself by not being in shape to play the minutes required to win games....and it's exactly why he has gotten himself in better shape THIS YEAR. Phil DEMANDED it, ironically Woody did as well when he took over.

Kinda amazing how two straight superiors are demanding their star to be in better shape.

Melo's gonna play and gonna play alot. if you think Melo gonna miss a full quarter of basketball per contest or more by even insinuating he'll play as low as 35 as a player in his prime....man i have no words.

Once again I said "Melo is 30 now and it would not hurt for him to play 35-37 mpg." Stop purposefully exaggerating what i've said to try and make what i'm saying sound extreme. There's nothing extreme about saying Melo shouldn't be playing 40 mpg. In wins Melo avg'd 37 mpg so if we play better BB, in particular if Melo is more efficient and the team as a whole is more productive, then he won't have to play 40 mpg.

I've laid out what I think this team should do and much of it is based on things Phil and Fish have said themselves about the team. You don't like the team and that's fine, but Fish and Phil believe this is a playoff team. I know it's easy to jump on me because of the disaster that was last year, but that has nothing to do with what the real potential of this team should've been then nor what it should be now. This team underachieved massively last year!!! There's no other way to assess what happened after a 54 win season to drop to 37 wins. Now this team has 7 new players, a new Prez, Coaching staff with championship experience and a proven system. The roster is much better balanced than last year as well.

It's all too easy to take pot shots at my points. Please detail what your expectations for this team should be this year and how they should play their rotation. I've listed my thoughts. What do you say?


I've already said my expectations. At some point Fisher will scrap the triangle and run an offense that benefits his group.

If he doesn't, wins will be hard to come by, as these particular guys are not smart enough to catch on to such a system.

melo might, but he'll revert to what he knows when the losses pile up.

nixluva
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9/25/2014  2:20 AM
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Please, melo abused himself by not being in shape to play the minutes required to win games....and it's exactly why he has gotten himself in better shape THIS YEAR. Phil DEMANDED it, ironically Woody did as well when he took over.

Kinda amazing how two straight superiors are demanding their star to be in better shape.

Melo's gonna play and gonna play alot. if you think Melo gonna miss a full quarter of basketball per contest or more by even insinuating he'll play as low as 35 as a player in his prime....man i have no words.

Once again I said "Melo is 30 now and it would not hurt for him to play 35-37 mpg." Stop purposefully exaggerating what i've said to try and make what i'm saying sound extreme. There's nothing extreme about saying Melo shouldn't be playing 40 mpg. In wins Melo avg'd 37 mpg so if we play better BB, in particular if Melo is more efficient and the team as a whole is more productive, then he won't have to play 40 mpg.

I've laid out what I think this team should do and much of it is based on things Phil and Fish have said themselves about the team. You don't like the team and that's fine, but Fish and Phil believe this is a playoff team. I know it's easy to jump on me because of the disaster that was last year, but that has nothing to do with what the real potential of this team should've been then nor what it should be now. This team underachieved massively last year!!! There's no other way to assess what happened after a 54 win season to drop to 37 wins. Now this team has 7 new players, a new Prez, Coaching staff with championship experience and a proven system. The roster is much better balanced than last year as well.

It's all too easy to take pot shots at my points. Please detail what your expectations for this team should be this year and how they should play their rotation. I've listed my thoughts. What do you say?


I've already said my expectations. At some point Fisher will scrap the triangle and run an offense that benefits his group.

If he doesn't, wins will be hard to come by, as these particular guys are not smart enough to catch on to such a system.

melo might, but he'll revert to what he knows when the losses pile up.


Not a lot of detail, but OK. So you have no faith in Fish, Rambis, Cleamons or Phil to be able to teach the Triangle to our players? You believe that Jose, Prigs and Larkin will be unable to run the Triangle? You believe that Melo, JR, THJ won't be able to score in the Triangle? I actually think these players are better suited to a system like this than it might seem. I think STAT, Bargs and Jason will be just fine in the Triangle. I'm not sure why you think this team will have to scrap the Triangle.

Phil and Fish realize that you need patience when installing the Triangle. The longer a team stays with it the better they'll get at it. You can't give up if the team struggles with it early. It seems to me that this team has bought in pretty early and has been working to get familiar with the new system.

This roster has a good amount of players who should be good in the Triangle. New Players like Jose and Jason are good shooters and well rounded players. I see players that should be able to grasp the Triangle and excel.

“Perfect fit,” Heiar said. “Cleanthony’s perfect for the triangle offense.”

Whether it was knocking down 3-pointers on pick-and-pop possessions or throwing touch passes from the high post, Early excelled in the areas of the game Jackson prizes. He will bring an interesting outlook to the Knicks locker room, as well, engaging anyone and everyone in conversation, quoting Buddha, reading “The Art of Seduction” and embracing the challenging positions of yoga. Once an immature student with a Steven Seagal ponytail at Pine Bush High in Orange County, Early kept an open mind on his journeys through prep school, junior college and a Final Four run at Wichita State. There are elements to his life that dovetail with Jackson’s spiritual ways.

“When people say spots, I‘m going to be all over the floor,” Anthony told Ballow. “I mean, the triangle, you are all over the floor. It makes it hard to guard, it keeps all eyes off of you. I’m looking forward to this year. I’ve been saying it all summer; I can’t wait.”

His enthusiasm only amplifies what’s become something of a strategic truism: Anthony, with his lethal mid-range game and underrated passing skills, is tailor-made for the triangle.

Even before Anthony had committed to returning to New York, Bleacher Report’s Zach Buckley offered up a fantastic synopsis of what the triangle offense means for Anthony, and vice-versa:

The triangle, while there is an X's and O's basis, is more philosophy than strategy. The scheme calls for floor spacing, balance and ball movement. ...

It can be manipulated to run almost anything: low-post chances, elbow isolations, pick-and-rolls, spot-up threes, anything. It's all about reading and reacting to the defense, a process that ideally becomes organic over time. ...

Anthony, one of the most complete offensive weapons in the league, has the intelligence to make those reads and the tools to execute the reaction. He needs to develop more trust in his teammates, and they need to prove themselves worthy of receiving it. The potential for him to thrive within the offense is incredible.

Now he is looking forward to being able to do those things in the triangle offense with new head coach Derek Fisher. And he’s hoping the triangle will have similar results for him as it did for two other prolific shooting guards who played for Phil Jackson.

“It suits me well,” Smith said. “If you’re a jump shooter and you pass the ball, guys with my skill set, it should be great. The last two guys that were in it became Hall of Famers and got a lot of rings. Hopefully, I’m in that position.”

While Smith has a very long way to go to follow in the footsteps of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, the Knicks guard is ready to start by having a bounce-back season.

“Absolutely,” Smith said of being able to rebound from last season. “I feel like I am capable of doing that.”


In his rookie season, Hardaway established himself as a talented scorer. In 23 minutes per game this past season, he averaged 10.2 points on 42.8 percent shooting overall and 36.3 percent from beyond the stripe.

He will only get better with the triangle in place:
"I think the triangle we ran summer league... was great. You just got to trust each and every person, whoever is on the floor. And that's the only way I think it will be able to work."
The 6'6 guard could play the role of Ron Harper in Jackson's system. Harper was also a 6'6 guard in Jackson's Chicago Bulls, when Michael Jordan won six championships. Harper created spacing for Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan to run the offense, and he used his athleticism on defense. Hardaway is good enough to fill that role, and with enough time, he has the potential to play the Scottie Pippen role. Then perhaps Carmelo Anthony could win his first NBA Championship.

Should The Knicks Use A Deep Rotation?

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