knickscity wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil stated this team needed talent while he was getting in the loop, oh how we so forget. Phil knows this particular group isnt that good, and doesnt expect to keep this group.

See this is your issue, you think things are automatic just because Phil and Fish are in the background, when they take alot of time. And it still depends on TALENT, which this team sorely lacks.

I told you this last year, I knew this team was garbage while you sat hear preaching and posting videos of how great things could be and NONE of that worked out, just like I knew it wouldnt. No team with so many inexperienced players and no VETS will ever win in this league, and they didnt.

There should be zero expectations for things to be any different from THIS group. Now once Phil has the resources to reshape the team, only then can expectations be higher, but not until then.

Playoffs are not a lock. No reasons? I have mutliple.

1)New system which will take time to learn.

2)managing ego's of players he wont be playing much at all.

3)expected poor defense

4)too many expirers/option players who will have their own agendas if they are seeking new deals. Amare, Bargnani, JR, Shump, Dally Jason Smith, Outlaw

Bottom line....Phil will have virtually an entirely new team next season and beyond. Expectatations for THIS current group...zero.

My advice to you....dont blame Phil and Fish when this team struggles, like you did last year with Woodson.

It always takes talent, brains and heart on the court, no team has won without it regardless of system.

He knickscity you know less than Phil

Nix knows more than Carlisle

Remember this very important rule

Meanwhile your reply here is

Billy Crystal//// Marvelous

So nix was packing and distributing last year

Raymond Felton led Knicks the same way he is Calderon led Knicks this year

I wonder where he had our projected win total last year

Was it between 40-45gms or 45-50gms

If the latter, here we have the Triangle and Calderon's true difference

Which wouldn't be much at all depending where he projected, maybe what Bonn stated

3gms at best, we'll win between 34-40gms this yr

You outlined very succinctly why

Something else to consider

When brainstorming why Carmelo hasn't been able to

Achieve peak winning results reflecting more on his past

One of the reasons mentioned, he's played with too many different rosters

He's a Knick now roster keeps turning over and will ever more

After this season concludes but there is no reservations

At the moment this will continue to haunt Melo

Why, the triangle and Calderon are here to save us and Melo

I agree with everything you wrote

Phil will continue the churning

It's going to take some time

I think he can get it done, but he needs to make everything count

From here on to 2015

As of now we're not close to where we need to be

I recall my dialogues with nix last year, he was spouting off about how the old guys did nothing, this is the same team...bargnani would be so superb only to look like a complete fool when i told him this team was worse. I heard so much "this team is younger and more athletic, they obviously are better". I'm pretty sure he was praising felton, i was as well...even the 54 win team looked like poop without him when his hand was injured.

Now as far as Melo goes, there is a reason why he doesnt have playoff success either by team or individually....he does nothing great. He's a 2nd fiddle being touted as primary, and anyone can easily see the difference when the playoffs roll around, and last year it proved he cant take margin talent anywhere like the true top players in the league can. When you have a guys like lets say LeBron, do you ever question can his team make the playoffs? No, titles are the expectation no matter who he plays with.

Even to a lesser degree did anyone question whether OKC would make the playoffs without Westbrook? Hell no.

Does melo have even one great moment as a Knick in the playoffs? A signature win? No.

Perhaps Phil and Fish can change that, but it wont be happening this season...that will take a complete overhaul and a hope that top talent want to play with this guy.

Melo's defining moment with us

When he dropped 42-17 in Boston[1st yr] ages ago

Signature win?

Maybe Game 2 against the Pacers

Maybe Game 4 against the Heat

Although put up so many shots during the entire 2012-2013 postseason

I doubt anyone really remember those performances

Yeah I see the noticeable change next season[for the better]

Once everyone is acclimated to what and how we go about doing things

Right now, we'll flatline at best against last season

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I recall my dialogues with nix last year, he was spouting off about how the old guys did nothing, this is the same team...bargnani would be so superb only to look like a complete fool when i told him this team was worse. I heard so much "this team is younger and more athletic, they obviously are better". I'm pretty sure he was praising felton, i was as well...even the 54 win team looked like poop without him when his hand was injured.

Sure try and make it sound like you had it all figured out now. Tells us how you knew they'd start the year 3-13. You had no way of knowing all the events that took place would all work out to make last year such a lost season. You may not have liked the team but you didn't know they'd be that bad cuz you couldn't know all these things would happen as they did.

I said they would be worse...they were, mainly because of the lack of quality vet prescence. Woodson leans on those heavily and last season he had none. The coach even said numerous times during the season this wasnt the same team. Even the guys on the team said "we're the vets now". A recipe for non success.

It was far too easy to predict. And you know we had this convo....I'll just drop a couple of those discussions right here for you.....

http://media.www.slicksports.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45545&page=1

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45883&page=1

nixluva wrote:The team should not have been so lost closing out games and that had a lot to do with Woody. Dolan messed with Woody's head and that really made him doubt himself. You could see that he froze in key moments and really wasn't thinking logically. Tyson breaking his leg, JR with his slow start due to the Knee surgery, Felton having his home issues, So many players performing well below their career avg's, blowing huge double digit leads, I'm sure you knew all of that would happen too.. GTFOH!

You're acting like the 54 win team didnt go through these things...they did. Difference is those vets were able to keep the team glued when the core clearly couldnt. Was Melo able to offset Feltons broken hand and the team sliding? Nope...How about JR? Nope.

What about the WC trip? Where was Melo? Flying back and forth on a swollen knee afraid of needles. Meanwhile JR didnt know what was going on....

For much of the season, the Knicks had been a confident group. They started out 18-5. Since then they have gone 20-21. Also alarming is that the Knicks have not beaten a top team for more than two months. Their last truly impressive victory was over the San Antonio Spurs on Jan. 3.

“It’s starting to take a toll on me mentally losing like this and knowing the type of team that we were in the beginning of the year,” Smith said of the losing streak.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/sports/basketball/clippers-overpower-knicks-as-skid-continues.html?_r=0

That there is the true definition of mentally weak. Luckily the old man saved these dudes and the season...Kurt Thomas in Utah.

nixluva wrote:Bargs was good in the very areas that I SAID he could be good at. PnP was what I was focused on. That did prove to be true. It turns out that he was pretty solid for us at C when Tyson went down. Bargs wasn't really the big issue at the start of the year. He had a good November but if you look at the production we didn't get from our guards it's clear that was the biggest problem at the start of the season when we lost so many games. Bad PG play is going to eventually impact Bargs game. Not to mention the focus of the offense that Woody was running wasn't Helping.

Nope sorry...you claimed bargs would play great next to Chandler and Melo....from the same thread I posted, that you made....

"However, if Woodson starts Bargnani, then we can actually have better defense at the PF spot. Some would laugh at this, but in truth he would be an upgrade over Melo at the PF spot defensively. AB is a solid man defender and next to Tyson it would work almost perfectly with his strengths."

The Knicks sucked with Bargs at the 4, they sucked with Bargs at the 5 too. They started winning when Bargs was permanently removed from the lineup via injury.

nixluva wrote:This year if Fish gets the guards to play well this team can be very good. Jose, JR, THJ, Shump, Larkin and Prigs need to be confident and in sync in this offense. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to stroke it in this offense given the way the ball moves and the cuts and screens featured. We can add Melo and possibly Early to that mix of players on the move in this offense. It's a lot to pull together with a new system but that is the challenge. I think everyone is going to be up for it. Already many of the players have been talking about the new offense and it's clear they've been checking it out on their own. It's clear that many are looking forward to playing this style of offense. Doesn't mean there won't be issues.

There's always a reason. Sometimes players just arent that good. I know it's easy to say, but it always comes down to talent. The Knicks likely wont be a good team this season. I've already explained why in earlier posts. It's a process...losing games will be part of the process. The true hope for the team will come when alot of the garbage comes off the books

                  Nov.          Dec.        
JR      32.7 mpg 32.8% 28.6%  36.8% 39.8% His Career avg. 42.5% 	
Felton  31.0 mpg 36.6% 23.7%  40.7% 39.1% His career avg. 41.2% 
Shump   26.5 mpg 40.5% 34.4%  31.4% 27.9% His career avg. 39.1% 

I know we all get into these esoteric discussions before the season, but NONE of this ISH about vets being gone has a damn thing to do with our guards shooting so poorly. A slight dip is one thing but they were abysmal and there was no reason to expect that level of drop off. I don't wanna hear about losing Kidd, Sheed and KT as being why our guards couldn't shoot or do anything at all right or why the team kept blowing huge leads or why our coach went away from the team's strengths or had anything to do with Tyson breaking his leg, Felton having home issues etc. It simply fits your narrative and the players grasping at straws when they were losing. It makes ZERO logical sense. All that they needed to have learned from Kidd should've been learned after a season playing with him and same goes for Sheed etc. It should not have been necessary to have those guys hanging around just so they could play decent BB.

The team started winning later in the season last year because JR got fully healthy and started playing like he was supposed to and Woody finally got a handle on things. Still not great but it was a better example of what the team should've been doing all year. It's only a coincidence that Bargs went down around the time JR started coming around. If JR had been playing like that all year and Woody had figured out how to use his roster before the season started, no way they lose so many games as they did.

nixluva wrote:You could save yourself all the typing cuz in the end what killed the team was pretty simple. Our guards that included 2 of our top 3 scorers from the year before played horribly to start the year. If they merely played at what would be their career averages it would've been better than what we got from them in the 1st 2 months. This is where the bulk of losing took place. 9-21 thru Dec.:

                  Nov.          Dec.        
JR      32.7 mpg 32.8% 28.6%  36.8% 39.8% His Career avg. 42.5% 	
Felton  31.0 mpg 36.6% 23.7%  40.7% 39.1% His career avg. 41.2% 
Shump   26.5 mpg 40.5% 34.4%  31.4% 27.9% His career avg. 39.1% 

Cant be serious. The 54 win team didnt even have Shumpert until mid season and he's not a scorer, so why is he on your list?

I agree JR started poorly, but he always starts poor. Even during the 54 win season JR shot pre-allstar 40% through 50 games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/2444/year/2013/jr-smith

I honestly dont hold Felton to the same wight as others...dude was going through a divorce and gun charge in NY...he clearly wasnt in it.

But it does seem now you're getting it...talent was a reason, a reason i stated to you before last year started.

nixluva wrote:I know we all get into these esoteric discussions before the season, but NONE of this ISH about vets being gone has a damn thing to do with our guards shooting so poorly. A slight dip is one thing but they were abysmal and there was no reason to expect that level of drop off. I don't wanna hear about losing Kidd, Sheed and KT as being why our guards couldn't shoot or do anything at all right or why the team kept blowing huge leads or why our coach went away from the team's strengths or had anything to do with Tyson breaking his leg, Felton having home issues etc. It simply fits your narrative and the players grasping at straws when they were losing. It makes ZERO logical sense. All that they needed to have learned from Kidd should've been learned after a season playing with him and same goes for Sheed etc. It should not have been necessary to have those guys hanging around just so they could play decent BB.

Just when I compliment you, I have to take it back. Kids done win, vets do. Melo and JR didnt even know they were vets. JR blatantly said "we're the vets now". Woodson noted this wasnt the same team numerous times. This team needs legit veteran prescence as they arent smart enough, or have the mentality to fight when down. They are weak players, melo inlcluded. they dont have a will not lose mentality.

nixluva wrote:The team started winning later in the season last year because JR got fully healthy and started playing like he was supposed to and Woody finally got a handle on things. Still not great but it was a better example of what the team should've been doing all year. It's only a coincidence that Bargs went down around the time JR started coming around. If JR had been playing like that all year and Woody had figured out how to use his roster before the season started, no way they lose so many games as they did.

Bargs should have neve been acquired. He doesnt fit, and his approach to basketball is poisonous. No NBA player has forgotten bargnani admitting he is lazy and deliberately doesnt rebound the basketball.

The team played better because the prescence of Phil. Woodson did nothing different out there. All those dudes were auditioning at that point because they knew Phil wanted to clean house....but it couldnt last because they lack the talent to do so.

As Phil perfectly worde it....."awful", "we are in a search for talent"....right after the Knicks allowed the Lakers to post a 51 point quarter right in his face....then left the game to go 'walk his dog".

"Fifty-one points," Jackson, in a dark blue suit and a striped tie, said as he arched his eyebrows. "When it's 35 points you start to get worried. When it's a 51-point quarter, that's really awful."

Thats what the Lakers did in that 3rd quarter.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/sports/basketball/jackson-becomes-a-visitor-in-lakers-territory-again.html?_r=1

Phil knows this team is talentless....he cant wait to rid it of the garbage.

F500ONE wrote:Knickscity thanks for the links

Here's what I want to focus on

From the Bargnani thread last year

Nix said the below

nixluva wrote:Your arguments suggest that the Knicks will end up the same as they were last year in every aspect of the game. The idea is for the team to improve. The roster is improved over last years roster. To suggest that this team is going to remain mediocre defensively and sub par in rebounding is possible but we actually don't know that for sure. It's entirely possible for the Knicks to get better tho I'm not suggesting that they'll be the best on defense or rebounding. What I am suggesting is that as a team they can play better with the addition of AB and others this year and that AB should start at PF because it makes the most sense for the rotations. AB starting makes sense for putting a balanced SL out there with a 7' center, 7' PF who can defend their positions well enough. It's on Woody and the staff to make that work as it should. If Bargnani could play next to Bosh I think he'd be even better next to Tyson in terms of how they complement each others flaws.

So the 2012-2013 team won 54gms

Nix said in bold the 2013-2014 team was better

Felton was on the 54win team

Felton was on the 2013-2014

If it was better

Was it better than 54gms

At a minimum it had to at least win 50gms

To be considered better

Fast forward to now we trade for Calderon

Team projection is 50gms, Calderon a 13gm difference

How can Calderon be a 13gm difference when

Nix projected the team with Felton to be better than the 54win team

Apparently it's pretty obvious he

Isn't very good with assessing the team, nor players here

So, it says that you joined 6/28/14 and yet you are pulling up threads from last year? I knew your posting style looked/read with familiarity...

"You Know you done messed up, don't you!" 3g4g, aka, Trueblue aka Juice....

F500ONE wrote:Knickscity thanks for the links

Here's what I want to focus on

From the Bargnani thread last year

Nix said the below

nixluva wrote:Your arguments suggest that the Knicks will end up the same as they were last year in every aspect of the game. The idea is for the team to improve. The roster is improved over last years roster. To suggest that this team is going to remain mediocre defensively and sub par in rebounding is possible but we actually don't know that for sure. It's entirely possible for the Knicks to get better tho I'm not suggesting that they'll be the best on defense or rebounding. What I am suggesting is that as a team they can play better with the addition of AB and others this year and that AB should start at PF because it makes the most sense for the rotations. AB starting makes sense for putting a balanced SL out there with a 7' center, 7' PF who can defend their positions well enough. It's on Woody and the staff to make that work as it should. If Bargnani could play next to Bosh I think he'd be even better next to Tyson in terms of how they complement each others flaws.

So the 2012-2013 team won 54gms

Nix said in bold the 2013-2014 team was better

Felton was on the 54win team

Felton was on the 2013-2014

If it was better

Was it better than 54gms

At a minimum it had to at least win 50gms

To be considered better

Fast forward to now we trade for Calderon

Team projection is 50gms, Calderon a 13gm difference

How can Calderon be a 13gm difference when

Nix projected the team with Felton to be better than the 54win team

Apparently it's pretty obvious he

Isn't very good with assessing the team, nor players here

You guys keep looking at the final result of last season and saying "YES I WAS RIGHT" but right about what? You predicted a slumping JR, Felton and for Tyson to break his leg? You predicted that Woody would be totally lost on how to use his roster? I don't think you guys predicted that we'd lose so many games that we had double digit leads against weak opponents and throw away games we should've won with just proper coaching or execution at the end of the game. I'm pretty sure no one foresaw a 9-21 start in the 1st 30 games.

This is all fine, but has nothing to really do with arguments for this roster this year being able to make the playoffs. Does the roster makes sense for what they want to run? Can they come together and play a better brand of BB and make good use of their talents? Do we have better leadership from Phil, Fish and the coaching staff? In the end you guys are just luxuriating in the fact that last year was a failure and you can enjoy your temporary stance of superiority on that fact. It really has no bearing on how things will go this year. I'm pretty sure that none of you guys were saying anything when the team was going gangbusters at the start of the 54 win season. After the 37 win season it's fun to crow and puff out your chest as if you really predicted that. All of the crazy things that happened on and off the court to produce such a poor season you guys predicted? Yeah right.

In any event This will be a very interesting season to watch. We haven't had this kind of front office unity in a long time and it will be interesting to see how they teach the players on this team and how that impacts the players. No more confusion or flat out lack of vision for what this team is going to be about. You haters can have fun watching for any slip up out of the gate by this team. The rest of us will be actually rooting for the team to succeed.

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Knickscity thanks for the links

Here's what I want to focus on

From the Bargnani thread last year

Nix said the below

nixluva wrote:Your arguments suggest that the Knicks will end up the same as they were last year in every aspect of the game. The idea is for the team to improve. The roster is improved over last years roster. To suggest that this team is going to remain mediocre defensively and sub par in rebounding is possible but we actually don't know that for sure. It's entirely possible for the Knicks to get better tho I'm not suggesting that they'll be the best on defense or rebounding. What I am suggesting is that as a team they can play better with the addition of AB and others this year and that AB should start at PF because it makes the most sense for the rotations. AB starting makes sense for putting a balanced SL out there with a 7' center, 7' PF who can defend their positions well enough. It's on Woody and the staff to make that work as it should. If Bargnani could play next to Bosh I think he'd be even better next to Tyson in terms of how they complement each others flaws.

So the 2012-2013 team won 54gms

Nix said in bold the 2013-2014 team was better

Felton was on the 54win team

Felton was on the 2013-2014

If it was better

Was it better than 54gms

At a minimum it had to at least win 50gms

To be considered better

Fast forward to now we trade for Calderon

Team projection is 50gms, Calderon a 13gm difference

How can Calderon be a 13gm difference when

Nix projected the team with Felton to be better than the 54win team

Apparently it's pretty obvious he

Isn't very good with assessing the team, nor players here

After one losing season in which so many things went wrong it's easy for you guys to point to the things I said and say whatever you want cuz the team failed so miserably. That's fine. It doesn't make your point of view right cuz last year the team underachieved in almost every way. The team failed to launch.

You guys keep looking at the final result of last season and saying "YES I WAS RIGHT" but right about what? You predicted a slumping JR, Felton and for Tyson to break his leg? You predicted that Woody would be totally lost on how to use his roster? I don't think you guys predicted that we'd lose so many games that we had double digit leads against weak opponents and throw away games we should've won with just proper coaching or execution at the end of the game. I'm pretty sure no one foresaw a 9-21 start in the 1st 30 games.

This is all fine, but has nothing to really do with arguments for this roster this year being able to make the playoffs. Does the roster makes sense for what they want to run? Can they come together and play a better brand of BB and make good use of their talents? Do we have better leadership from Phil, Fish and the coaching staff? In the end you guys are just luxuriating in the fact that last year was a failure and you can enjoy your temporary stance of superiority on that fact. It really has no bearing on how things will go this year. I'm pretty sure that none of you guys were saying anything when the team was going gangbusters at the start of the 54 win season. After the 37 win season it's fun to crow and puff out your chest as if you really predicted that. All of the crazy things that happened on and off the court to produce such a poor season you guys predicted? Yeah right.

In any event This will be a very interesting season to watch. We haven't had this kind of front office unity in a long time and it will be interesting to see how they teach the players on this team and how that impacts the players. No more confusion or flat out lack of vision for what this team is going to be about. You haters can have fun watching for any slip up out of the gate by this team. The rest of us will be actually rooting for the team to succeed.

Crow and Puff//// what?

You mean like you

A Silver Back Gorilla in the Mist

Beating his chest over a Calderon addition

I'm not predicting any broken legs, elbow, or ACL injuries

I'm not predicting any player getting subpoenaed to court

I'm not predicting any player abstaining from pork or meats

I'm not predicting the Triangle becoming an Octagon

I'm not predicting who's Smith and Wesson

On the Streets

I'm saying we haven't improved enough yet

Regardless of what could prove to be true

Now I very well could be wrong

No sweat off my back, I'll gladly say I was wrong

This team owes to prove me wrong, looking forward to it

Will not root for losses, unless lottery implications surface

Of course this roster this yr is up for discussion

The scoreboard says 0-0, the optimism is at an all time high for you

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I recall my dialogues with nix last year, he was spouting off about how the old guys did nothing, this is the same team...bargnani would be so superb only to look like a complete fool when i told him this team was worse. I heard so much "this team is younger and more athletic, they obviously are better". I'm pretty sure he was praising felton, i was as well...even the 54 win team looked like poop without him when his hand was injured.

Sure try and make it sound like you had it all figured out now. Tells us how you knew they'd start the year 3-13. You had no way of knowing all the events that took place would all work out to make last year such a lost season. You may not have liked the team but you didn't know they'd be that bad cuz you couldn't know all these things would happen as they did.