F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Well there is this from last February but it wasn't just out of the 30 starters. The pool of point guards also included 20 back ups.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/nba-exec-raymond-felton-is-the-worst-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/

obviously the knicks would have been better off retaining lin, then-- the plan was to bring in kidd to mentor lin. but woodson was confoundingly never high on lin and melo being melo....

Notice CBS provided no real basis for how they ranked the guards

They also have players on the list who were backups

Or Players who started at other positions

Very Dubious ranking, but I think we all agree Felton was bad

Needless to say I pointed out fitzfarm

Stating Calderon was better defensively over Felton

Not accurate whatsoever

I provided a link and a quoted piece from Begley article dismissing this

This is what I'm talking about too, when it comes to using

Stats to support the narrative

In the link you'll see by the time the year concluded

Tony Parker was ranked 23rd and Brandon Jennings 12th

Why place your contributions in a discussion

At jeopardy citing such a heinous reference

How was Monta Ellis 6th and Calderon 18th

LOL @ CBS

felton was a negative-sum player, of that there can be no doubt. even at the top of his game felton was not even a positive-sum player.

at least calderon has an opportunity, in a nash-like way, to net out as a positive-sum player. in other words, make sure your offensive contributions and assets outweigh your defensive liabilities.

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Well there is this from last February but it wasn't just out of the 30 starters. The pool of point guards also included 20 back ups.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/nba-exec-raymond-felton-is-the-worst-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/

obviously the knicks would have been better off retaining lin, then-- the plan was to bring in kidd to mentor lin. but woodson was confoundingly never high on lin and melo being melo....

Notice CBS provided no real basis for how they ranked the guards

They also have players on the list who were backups

Or Players who started at other positions

Very Dubious ranking, but I think we all agree Felton was bad

Needless to say I pointed out fitzfarm

Stating Calderon was better defensively over Felton

Not accurate whatsoever

I provided a link and a quoted piece from Begley article dismissing this

This is what I'm talking about too, when it comes to using

Stats to support the narrative

In the link you'll see by the time the year concluded

Tony Parker was ranked 23rd and Brandon Jennings 12th

Why place your contributions in a discussion

At jeopardy citing such a heinous reference

How was Monta Ellis 6th and Calderon 18th

LOL @ CBS

felton was a negative-sum player, of that there can be no doubt. even at the top of his game felton was not even a positive-sum player.

at least calderon has an opportunity, in a nash-like way, to net out as a positive-sum player. in other words, make sure your offensive contributions and assets outweigh your defensive liabilities.

Yes if Calderon was a higher usage offensive player

The problem, how bad is he defensively

Well statistically we know he was and is worse than Felton

What can't be quantified is how bad an individual player's defense is

That compromises the contributions of the other higher performing players

Including himself

Case in point

If Calderon can't stay in front of

D-Rose-Wall-Iriving-WestBrook-Curry-Lawson-Lin-Lowry-Dragic-CP3-Parker-Kemba-Teague-Lillard-Rondo-Conley

Playing on a team with other horrific defenders

Does Calderon get himself into foul trouble

Thus placing himself on the sidelines

Only for our offense to suffer because he isn't running it

This speaks to your assertion of our offense having to be

Light yrs ahead of our defense

Well in Calderon's case he has to be such an

Offensive threat[Point Guards usually aren't in the Triangle]

To quell his opponents offensive prowess

I don't see this trade off balancing in our favor

Did you check out their synergy profiles? Def rating?

Also, it could be argued that last year he was on a team with horrific defenders so why not see what he did last year i regards to fouls. You can also look at his numbers in Detroit.

He has never avg over 2.2 PFs a game during a season and never avg 3.0 PFs a game per 36. I don't think foul trouble is an issue.

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Well there is this from last February but it wasn't just out of the 30 starters. The pool of point guards also included 20 back ups.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/nba-exec-raymond-felton-is-the-worst-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/

obviously the knicks would have been better off retaining lin, then-- the plan was to bring in kidd to mentor lin. but woodson was confoundingly never high on lin and melo being melo....

Notice CBS provided no real basis for how they ranked the guards

They also have players on the list who were backups

Or Players who started at other positions

Very Dubious ranking, but I think we all agree Felton was bad

Needless to say I pointed out fitzfarm

Stating Calderon was better defensively over Felton

Not accurate whatsoever

I provided a link and a quoted piece from Begley article dismissing this

This is what I'm talking about too, when it comes to using

Stats to support the narrative

In the link you'll see by the time the year concluded

Tony Parker was ranked 23rd and Brandon Jennings 12th

Why place your contributions in a discussion

At jeopardy citing such a heinous reference

How was Monta Ellis 6th and Calderon 18th

LOL @ CBS

felton was a negative-sum player, of that there can be no doubt. even at the top of his game felton was not even a positive-sum player.

at least calderon has an opportunity, in a nash-like way, to net out as a positive-sum player. in other words, make sure your offensive contributions and assets outweigh your defensive liabilities.

Yes if Calderon was a higher usage offensive player

The problem, how bad is he defensively

Well statistically we know he was and is worse than Felton

What can't be quantified is how bad an individual player's defense is

That compromises the contributions of the other higher performing players

Including himself

Case in point

If Calderon can't stay in front of

D-Rose-Wall-Iriving-WestBrook-Curry-Lawson-Lin-Lowry-Dragic-CP3-Parker-Kemba-Teague-Lillard-Rondo-Conley

Playing on a team with other horrific defenders

Does Calderon get himself into foul trouble

Thus placing himself on the sidelines

Only for our offense to suffer because he isn't running it

This speaks to your assertion of our offense having to be

Light yrs ahead of our defense

Well in Calderon's case he has to be such an

Offensive threat[Point Guards usually aren't in the Triangle]

To quell his opponents offensive prowess

I don't see this trade off balancing in our favor

well there is a team defense technique where the perimeter players knowingly "funnel" the penetrators into the help and interior defense. it no doubt takes tons of practice and coordination, and hopefully the coaching staff can really drill the squad. also, whatever happened to overplaying the strong hand? seems like there are so few ambidextrous ballhandlers in the league that it's a no-brainer technique.

Yeah funneling is a good technique

Phx did it a lot of this while Nash was running point

It helped having Shawn Marion-Raja Bell as defenders, on the wing,

Both of these two players offense was as good as their defense

And Vice Versa

Amare was adequate then[not now] along with Diaw

I guess we can look for Shump to be one of those guys

On the perimeter, but all I've heard from him is cutting-slashing-jumping

In his case both are equally bad right now

Or last we saw of him

What about defending and moving from side-to-side, pressuring the ball

To be more a two-way lock down player

Since offense is Calderon's calling card

I hope he has a green light to do as he pleases

His usage needs to pick up

To keep his opponents uneasy on the other end

Taking away some of their book end offensive advantage

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

I've never stated that Jose is a good defender so you can't ding me on that account either. I merely made the point that in this case a picture was worth a thousand STATS. Felton sucked on a much worse level than Jose. People want to only use stats to try and make it seem like Jose is not going to be an improvement over Felton. There was not one single list that had Jose on the same level as Felton when rating PG's. They consistently had Jose somewhere in the top 20 and Felton in the bottom 40 or worse. Felton compounded the problem of his defense with horrid offense and no ability to run a team.

Just use your damn eyes and you can clearly see that Jose is a better player than Felton in many areas. We know he's not a good defender, but he is in fact a VASTLY superior offensive player. He can find players with his court vision and accurate passing that Felton can only dream about doing. All of this will actually make the defense better. Hitting shots and setting up teammates for high % shots will make your defense BETTER!!! Missing shots and taking bad shots because your PG can't run a team will make your defense WORSE.

F500ONE wrote:Where were Jose and Felton ranked in 2012-2013

Where were Jose and Felton ranked in 2011-2012

I'm asking about these 2 season for a very specific reason

Whatever links you're referring to in point guard rankings

Please recite those again for these 2 seasons

MAN just make your damn point. I'm not here to do homework assignments!!!

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

You guys are so full of crap... I MOST CERTAINLY have posted comparative stats on Jose and Felton and have made no attempt to ignore the good or bad of Jose as a player. This is just the usual hack job from the same guys on this forum. All you have to do is go back and look at my posts and as stated I do post stats. I don't make irrational arguments. You guys just spend so much time confusing the issue by nitpicking small points that were never the focus of the topic that you make it easy to "catch" me in what seems like a contradiction of my own previous statements. You guys just throw enough crap at the topic that it's easy to change the topic to something else that is really a small and insignificant aspect of the overall topic. You can't refute my points so you guys introduce new points that you think will win you praise.

I've never stated that Jose is a good defender so you can't ding me on that account either. I merely made the point that in this case a picture was worth a thousand STATS. Felton sucked on a much worse level than Jose. People want to only use stats to try and make it seem like Jose is not going to be an improvement over Felton. There was not one single list that had Jose on the same level as Felton when rating PG's. They consistently had Jose somewhere in the top 20 and Felton in the bottom 40 or worse. Felton compounded the problem of his defense with horrid offense and no ability to run a team.

Just use your damn eyes and you can clearly see that Jose is a better player than Felton in many areas. We know he's not a good defender, but he is in fact a VASTLY superior offensive player. He can find players with his court vision and accurate passing that Felton can only dream about doing. All of this will actually make the defense better. Hitting shots and setting up teammates for high % shots will make your defense BETTER!!! Missing shots and taking bad shots because your PG can't run a team will make your defense WORSE.

why are you getting so defensive? it boils down to where they land in the negative-sum, zero-sum, positive-sum spectrum. then you have to consider context. on the first point calderon is clearly superior... in a vacuum. it's the second point that has to be considered so far as calderon's value to the 14-15 squad.

both players are defensive liabilities, with felton, unbelievably, having the edge. but when you consider the adverse effect the triangle has on a pick and roll specialist-- this is calderon's game-- the offensive system actually detracts from the full actualization of his game.

this means you have to look at other aspects of his game... what are they? shooting-- he's pretty good, perhaps very good-- and the better he can hit a corner three the more value he has. corner threes are pretty big in the triangle.

he himself cutting and catching and finishing? how soft are those hands of his and can he gather himself off bad passes, of which i expect there to be many-- we shall see. ball moving? good. hitting cutters? he should be vastly better than felton.

all that said, he will move the needle to a certain extent, but will it be to the extent that it has a net positive effect on the team? it bears repeating: the orchestrating point guard is a virtual afterthought in the triangle offense.

They have more scoring PG's in the league now, than they have ever had at one time.

Feltons problem isn't his defense, it's conditioning.Prior to his first stint with the knicks, he was regarded as a very solid defender, but he has a well known rep for his lackadaisical approach to his fitness awareness. Jose is a International born player,he grew up running an offense and shooting perimeter shots, Why you guy's continue to compare these 2 is beyond me.

NO one can argue that felton played much much better under MDA, then he did woodson. he was more aggressive under MDA, more fluent, and never hesitated. Under woodson he became passive, lost confidence, and followed everybodies plan, "give melo the damn ball".

nixluva wrote:I FULLY understand the Triangle. If you go thru all of the options in the Triangle offense there will be plenty of opportunities for Jose to make plays. As i've said it isn't always about the pass that leads directly to an assist. The so called Hockey assist or pass that leads to the pass that leads to an assist, is very important too. Kidd was very instrumental in making that key ball move that would eventually lead to an assisted score. Also there is a LOT of 2 man game in the Triangle.

You can see that there are still lots of looks for the PG to get the ball back and make something happen. The thing is that you can still run the Triangle without a PG but you can also run it with a PG using his skills within the flow of the offense. It all depends on the defense and the option being run.

People also forget about the Early offensive looks that are also part of the Triangle. It's not like they will just ignore taking advantage of the defense before it gets set. The entire point is to get great looks and take what the defense gives you.
Jose is going to be able to take advantage of open 3's much like Fisher.

nice video, and yes you're right, the two-man game emerges when the triangle breaks down. one wonders how often the triangle breaks down in real-game situations and not summer league highlights. i don't mean anything snarky by that, but you have to admit that we are dealing with an unknown quantity. that said, at least we can see that the ball is not sticking and that the offense forces the players to be properly spaced. one other point, which is that the triangle apparently punishes fronting in the post-- i wonder who this will benefit on this squad?

The sad thing is the Knicks HAD the point guard they needed, he fell into their laps like manna from Heaven. The Knicks traded Chandler to fix a position they could have solved with some money ( an area where the Knicks can be more competitive than other teams)to retain a ready made solution, thus they could have traded Chandler for help elsewhere on the roster. Instead the Knicks traded their only trade asset this off season to fix something they broke and inflicted on themselves.

Keeping Lin and building around Lin, instead of Melo, would have this team ALREADY playing team ball. It's not his fault that Morey grabbed a pair of ball stopping team cancers in Howard and Harden right after acquiring Lin and Asik that limited his Rockets upside. When Harden was out of certain games, it was clear Lin could be ball dominant, run the offense, and be an effective offensive threat. He was and is everything the Knicks needed the last two seasons

TeamBall wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:While people here can debate who won the Melo trade, NY or Denver, I think people forgot that the Nuggets were playing really solid team ball when Melo WAS GONE. Despite losing a superstar player, they were passing the ball more, trying to find the open man, taking the high percentage opportunity. Which goes back to my main point, Calderon isn't the lynchpin that makes or breaks the Knicks, because Melo already BREAKS the Knicks.

The Knicks also played solid team ball when Melo WAS HERE. Whether or not you want to attribute that to Kidd, the fact remains that it can be done and has happened.