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Jose Calderon's Offensive Boost
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jrodmc
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8/28/2014  10:15 AM
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:2014/15 Jose Calderon>= 2012/13 Jason Kidd

No way jose, while he may be a floor general like kidd on the offensive side of things, he is not even 1/10th of a defender kidd was, and he is no where near the leader kidd was.

And I think this is where we can have a debate!

Yes, Kidd was probably a better leader than Calderon will be - but I think Calderon's shooting ability will be much better than what we got out of Kidd. Kidd was awesome first part of the season - then a downright liability second half and play offs. Didn't he go some absurd stretch (40 shots) without making a bucket or 3 pt shot.

Unless Calderon gets hurt, I'd expect really solid contributions all year- and to me, that puts him as a whole above what Kidd gave us his last season with us.

+1
Including not having to get run into the ground, ala Kidd. Prigs and Larkin (and maybe Shump when they go big and defensive in the backcourt) will all be vying for minutes. Why shoot, I heard once even JR knows how to pass.

Remember Felton? Remember Toney Douglas? Remember that Jeremy 10 day wonder guy?
This is going to be fun.

AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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8/28/2014  10:44 AM
Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.
knicks1248
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8/28/2014  11:56 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?

ES
Bonn1997
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8/28/2014  12:03 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2014  12:04 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.
nixluva
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8/28/2014  12:46 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.

I don't think people should put so much weight on stats like this. IMO it's more about the cumulative effect players as a group have on each other. Just like the inverse effect that a player like Felton had on the team. The PG like a QB can have a greater impact on the way the entire team performs if he is the one who starts plays, gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball. If he's not that great at feeding the post or finding players all over the court because of poor court vision, that is something which effects the total overall effectiveness of the team. IMO Felton was so bad in these areas in addition to his own offensive production that it greatly effected the team in a negative way.

I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

jrodmc
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8/28/2014  1:40 PM
nixluva wrote:I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

You know Bonn's going to come up with advanced stats that show "% of passes that lead to rhythmic shots" with a white paper analysis comparative "Pill Distribution Ratio Affecting the Rhythm Method Outcomes"

Bonn1997
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8/28/2014  2:01 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.

I don't think people should put so much weight on stats like this. IMO it's more about the cumulative effect players as a group have on each other. Just like the inverse effect that a player like Felton had on the team. The PG like a QB can have a greater impact on the way the entire team performs if he is the one who starts plays, gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball. If he's not that great at feeding the post or finding players all over the court because of poor court vision, that is something which effects the total overall effectiveness of the team. IMO Felton was so bad in these areas in addition to his own offensive production that it greatly effected the team in a negative way.

I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

We'll have to see. There will be plenty of games where we win by a one more or a few more points or lose by one or a few less, but I think you're overestimating how many times any one player changes the W/L record.

F500ONE
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8/28/2014  2:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2014  2:08 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.

I don't think people should put so much weight on stats like this. IMO it's more about the cumulative effect players as a group have on each other. Just like the inverse effect that a player like Felton had on the team. The PG like a QB can have a greater impact on the way the entire team performs if he is the one who starts plays, gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball. If he's not that great at feeding the post or finding players all over the court because of poor court vision, that is something which effects the total overall effectiveness of the team. IMO Felton was so bad in these areas in addition to his own offensive production that it greatly effected the team in a negative way.

I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

We'll have to see. There will be plenty of games where we win by a one more or a few more points or lose by one or a few less, but I think you're overestimating how many times any one player changes the W/L record.

I think Nix biggest problem as a poster

He doesn't give enough analysis towards other teams


Does any other team have + win players on them

Did other teams upgrade positions they were the weakest at


Did other teams make upgrades with coaching staff


Did other teams give their front office a face lift

Did other teams do well in free agency and-or trades


Did other teams draft well

Do other teams have more star type talent, upside players on their roster

smackeddog
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8/28/2014  2:44 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

While Bargs deducts about 20

knicks1248
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8/28/2014  3:07 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.

I don't think people should put so much weight on stats like this. IMO it's more about the cumulative effect players as a group have on each other. Just like the inverse effect that a player like Felton had on the team. The PG like a QB can have a greater impact on the way the entire team performs if he is the one who starts plays, gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball. If he's not that great at feeding the post or finding players all over the court because of poor court vision, that is something which effects the total overall effectiveness of the team. IMO Felton was so bad in these areas in addition to his own offensive production that it greatly effected the team in a negative way.

I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

We'll have to see. There will be plenty of games where we win by a one more or a few more points or lose by one or a few less, but I think you're overestimating how many times any one player changes the W/L record.

Did metrics indicate that losing kidd would amount to 17 more losses..I won't even count rasheed and KT, because they're impact came in the locker room.

Did metrics indicate that when MDA step down, and woodson stepped up, there would be a 600% increase in win %.

Lets try to focus on the health and the culture, which adds 10 more wins in it's self. People always talk about locker room and culture, but never include that into the equation.

ES
Bonn1997
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8/28/2014  3:54 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.

I don't think people should put so much weight on stats like this. IMO it's more about the cumulative effect players as a group have on each other. Just like the inverse effect that a player like Felton had on the team. The PG like a QB can have a greater impact on the way the entire team performs if he is the one who starts plays, gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball. If he's not that great at feeding the post or finding players all over the court because of poor court vision, that is something which effects the total overall effectiveness of the team. IMO Felton was so bad in these areas in addition to his own offensive production that it greatly effected the team in a negative way.

I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

We'll have to see. There will be plenty of games where we win by a one more or a few more points or lose by one or a few less, but I think you're overestimating how many times any one player changes the W/L record.

Did metrics indicate that losing kidd would amount to 17 more losses..I won't even count rasheed and KT, because they're impact came in the locker room.

Did metrics indicate that when MDA step down, and woodson stepped up, there would be a 600% increase in win %.

Lets try to focus on the health and the culture, which adds 10 more wins in it's self. People always talk about locker room and culture, but never include that into the equation.

You think Kidd was 17 wins? That's crazy

gunsnewing
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8/28/2014  4:05 PM
^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum

Bonn1997
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8/28/2014  4:11 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2014  4:15 PM
gunsnewing wrote:^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum


That leaves no room for any other changes to have impacted our win total - Felton deteriorating, JR playing much worse, other guys aging, losing Copeland, Kurt, Sheed, and the league's best 3 point shooter. K-Mart played very well too. Kidd was wonderful but you guys are seriously overestimating how much any one player contributes. There just aren't enough games decided by 1, 2, or 3 points. These players that Kidd was "coaching," maybe that helped a little but it's not like they were shooting 10% better with him on than off the court.
knicks1248
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8/28/2014  5:44 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum


That leaves no room for any other changes to have impacted our win total - Felton deteriorating, JR playing much worse, other guys aging, losing Copeland, Kurt, Sheed, and the league's best 3 point shooter. K-Mart played very well too. Kidd was wonderful but you guys are seriously overestimating how much any one player contributes. There just aren't enough games decided by 1, 2, or 3 points. These players that Kidd was "coaching," maybe that helped a little but it's not like they were shooting 10% better with him on than off the court.

Your right, it was more than just kidd, but when you said jose will only net us 3 more wins, you sounded crazy. Jose is just one part of the upgrade and I don't equate winning to just talent, the breakdown should always be

Talent/balance = 25%
Culture/Coaching = 25%
health = 50%

If all those ducks are in order, your ready to contend for a championship.

ES
Bonn1997
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8/28/2014  7:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2014  7:43 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum


That leaves no room for any other changes to have impacted our win total - Felton deteriorating, JR playing much worse, other guys aging, losing Copeland, Kurt, Sheed, and the league's best 3 point shooter. K-Mart played very well too. Kidd was wonderful but you guys are seriously overestimating how much any one player contributes. There just aren't enough games decided by 1, 2, or 3 points. These players that Kidd was "coaching," maybe that helped a little but it's not like they were shooting 10% better with him on than off the court.

Your right, it was more than just kidd, but when you said jose will only net us 3 more wins, you sounded crazy. Jose is just one part of the upgrade and I don't equate winning to just talent, the breakdown should always be

Talent/balance = 25%
Culture/Coaching = 25%
health = 50%

If all those ducks are in order, your ready to contend for a championship.


Well my predictions are much closer to mainstream than yours among American sportswriters. Maybe you aren't in a position to judge craziness.
You're completely ignoring the limitations of every player. Our new PG and C regularly combine for an on-off +/- of about -10. You want to say these guys are giving us ten more wins a game? Really?
I'm probably drinking Kool-aid when I say a net increase of 3 to 4. It's possible that any upgrade from Calderon is entirely outweighed by the Tyson to Dalembert downgrade.
djsunyc
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8/28/2014  8:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2014  8:11 PM
i love jose calderon. one of the reasons i became a raptors fan.

this is what's going to matter the most...at this stage of his career, he is not a leader (never really was) and during crunch time, he will be exposed big time as every single pg is going to go right at him. still think he can be part of a winning team (as he proved last year with dallas) but everybody else really has to play at top level and you must have a quality bench to produce like dallas did. at this point, he won't be playing the final 7 mins of a game b/c he will be the main culprit for a defensive breakdown.

carlisle is a mastermind coach and got the most effective performance out of him w/o hurting the team overall. fisher is TBD as a coach.

his skill is obviously shooting but once you limit the time the ball is in his hands, his playmaking becomes marginalized. triangle has never had or required play making from the pg spot. it requires shooting (which he does) but also defense (which he doesn't). he needs to be in a system where he basically runs the show - that's when you'll see the creativity. still a very good player. one of my favorites. but i would temper the expectations a bit. it would require the entire team clicking and playing at top level all year. at this point, there really is no reason for amare + bargs + shump to not have a really good all around season since they are playing for a contract. if they don't, then they really aren't any good.

nixluva
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8/28/2014  8:24 PM
F500ONE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Calderon's definitely a big offensive improvement over Felton. Looking at the win shares, he should be able to add about 3 wins to our total.

are you serious?


Yeah, I'm looking at the advanced metrics. People seriously overrate how much any one player contributes. It's only guys like Lebron who add double digit wins. Very good but not outstanding 2 way players might add higher single digits. It could be 4 though for Calderon. I went back and forth between 3 and 4 but typed 3.

I don't think people should put so much weight on stats like this. IMO it's more about the cumulative effect players as a group have on each other. Just like the inverse effect that a player like Felton had on the team. The PG like a QB can have a greater impact on the way the entire team performs if he is the one who starts plays, gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball. If he's not that great at feeding the post or finding players all over the court because of poor court vision, that is something which effects the total overall effectiveness of the team. IMO Felton was so bad in these areas in addition to his own offensive production that it greatly effected the team in a negative way.

I think the presence of Jose will have a greater impact overall than the stats like Win Share will be able to calculate. The ball will get up the court quicker and more often in the right spot. There will be more Hockey Assists and the timing of plays will be better leading to guys taking shots in rhythm. It's the little things like this that make a huge difference but aren't calculated.

We'll have to see. There will be plenty of games where we win by a one more or a few more points or lose by one or a few less, but I think you're overestimating how many times any one player changes the W/L record.

I think Nix biggest problem as a poster

He doesn't give enough analysis towards other teams


Does any other team have + win players on them

Did other teams upgrade positions they were the weakest at


Did other teams make upgrades with coaching staff


Did other teams give their front office a face lift

Did other teams do well in free agency and-or trades


Did other teams draft well

Do other teams have more star type talent, upside players on their roster

Yeah that's what's wrong with my posts. I don't focus on what other teams have done, which has nothing to do with this team.

I'll tell you what... This team has more talent than you clearly believe it does. I'm posting threads like this to make a case about this team's talent which I think many in the media and some fans like yourself don't recognize.
This isn't a team that is bereft of talent. They had a horrible season last year where a lot didn't go right, but Phil has a done a decent job of bringing balance to the roster and with the new system and coaching staff, which is superior to what we had, this team should be much better.

You don't give any credit to these points and instead keep bringing up these vague points about other teams having talent, new coaches, etc. One thing has nothing to do with the other. You like another team better than the Knicks that's fine, but i'm making a case formy favorite team and what I realistically see as positive aspects this year.

Jose is a major improvement for this team over what we had last year and he fits better for the system we will run this year, since he is a much better shooter and passer. When he does have the ball he will make better decisions and passes with the ball and he's a constant threat to shoot the ball and make it. This should help all of our players. This is why I posted the videos to make it clear just how good Jose's court vision and passing accuracy is relative to what we had last year, it's a vast improvement.

knicks1248
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8/28/2014  11:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2014  11:32 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum


That leaves no room for any other changes to have impacted our win total - Felton deteriorating, JR playing much worse, other guys aging, losing Copeland, Kurt, Sheed, and the league's best 3 point shooter. K-Mart played very well too. Kidd was wonderful but you guys are seriously overestimating how much any one player contributes. There just aren't enough games decided by 1, 2, or 3 points. These players that Kidd was "coaching," maybe that helped a little but it's not like they were shooting 10% better with him on than off the court.

Your right, it was more than just kidd, but when you said jose will only net us 3 more wins, you sounded crazy. Jose is just one part of the upgrade and I don't equate winning to just talent, the breakdown should always be

Talent/balance = 25%
Culture/Coaching = 25%
health = 50%

If all those ducks are in order, your ready to contend for a championship.


Well my predictions are much closer to mainstream than yours among American sportswriters. Maybe you aren't in a position to judge craziness.
You're completely ignoring the limitations of every player. Our new PG and C regularly combine for an on-off +/- of about -10. You want to say these guys are giving us ten more wins a game? Really?
I'm probably drinking Kool-aid when I say a net increase of 3 to 4. It's possible that any upgrade from Calderon is entirely outweighed by the Tyson to Dalembert downgrade.

Down grade from Tyson, in a different system maybe, in this system he would be a liability. You see in the triangle bigs need to either be able to shoot face up, or have good post moves, Tyson has nothing, all he does is dunk and tap balls out for extra possessions.

You said earlier that players were not playing up to their potential for whatever reason, (mostly health)coaching, system. Take the same +/- and use it for a players value when healthy and in a different system.

If a guys knee is hurting him and he shoots 20% because he has no lift, am i suppose to believe he'll shoot 20% when fully healthy.

ES
Bonn1997
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8/29/2014  5:27 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum


That leaves no room for any other changes to have impacted our win total - Felton deteriorating, JR playing much worse, other guys aging, losing Copeland, Kurt, Sheed, and the league's best 3 point shooter. K-Mart played very well too. Kidd was wonderful but you guys are seriously overestimating how much any one player contributes. There just aren't enough games decided by 1, 2, or 3 points. These players that Kidd was "coaching," maybe that helped a little but it's not like they were shooting 10% better with him on than off the court.

Your right, it was more than just kidd, but when you said jose will only net us 3 more wins, you sounded crazy. Jose is just one part of the upgrade and I don't equate winning to just talent, the breakdown should always be

Talent/balance = 25%
Culture/Coaching = 25%
health = 50%

If all those ducks are in order, your ready to contend for a championship.


Well my predictions are much closer to mainstream than yours among American sportswriters. Maybe you aren't in a position to judge craziness.
You're completely ignoring the limitations of every player. Our new PG and C regularly combine for an on-off +/- of about -10. You want to say these guys are giving us ten more wins a game? Really?
I'm probably drinking Kool-aid when I say a net increase of 3 to 4. It's possible that any upgrade from Calderon is entirely outweighed by the Tyson to Dalembert downgrade.

Down grade from Tyson, in a different system maybe, in this system he would be a liability. You see in the triangle bigs need to either be able to shoot face up, or have good post moves, Tyson has nothing, all he does is dunk and tap balls out for extra possessions.

You said earlier that players were not playing up to their potential for whatever reason, (mostly health)coaching, system. Take the same +/- and use it for a players value when healthy and in a different system.

If a guys knee is hurting him and he shoots 20% because he has no lift, am i suppose to believe he'll shoot 20% when fully healthy.


You realize his replacement is Dalembert, right?
yellowboy90
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8/29/2014  6:11 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:^Yes

Kidd was the coach on both ends. Woodson just stood there and chewed his gum


That leaves no room for any other changes to have impacted our win total - Felton deteriorating, JR playing much worse, other guys aging, losing Copeland, Kurt, Sheed, and the league's best 3 point shooter. K-Mart played very well too. Kidd was wonderful but you guys are seriously overestimating how much any one player contributes. There just aren't enough games decided by 1, 2, or 3 points. These players that Kidd was "coaching," maybe that helped a little but it's not like they were shooting 10% better with him on than off the court.

Your right, it was more than just kidd, but when you said jose will only net us 3 more wins, you sounded crazy. Jose is just one part of the upgrade and I don't equate winning to just talent, the breakdown should always be

Talent/balance = 25%
Culture/Coaching = 25%
health = 50%

If all those ducks are in order, your ready to contend for a championship.


Well my predictions are much closer to mainstream than yours among American sportswriters. Maybe you aren't in a position to judge craziness.
You're completely ignoring the limitations of every player. Our new PG and C regularly combine for an on-off +/- of about -10. You want to say these guys are giving us ten more wins a game? Really?
I'm probably drinking Kool-aid when I say a net increase of 3 to 4. It's possible that any upgrade from Calderon is entirely outweighed by the Tyson to Dalembert downgrade.

Down grade from Tyson, in a different system maybe, in this system he would be a liability. You see in the triangle bigs need to either be able to shoot face up, or have good post moves, Tyson has nothing, all he does is dunk and tap balls out for extra possessions.

You said earlier that players were not playing up to their potential for whatever reason, (mostly health)coaching, system. Take the same +/- and use it for a players value when healthy and in a different system.

If a guys knee is hurting him and he shoots 20% because he has no lift, am i suppose to believe he'll shoot 20% when fully healthy.


You realize his replacement is Dalembert, right?


Well they were pretty comparable last year but Tyson may go back to his old self or Tyson could be breaking down who knows.

Sam does some good things but there seems to be something that coaches do not like about him because every stop he has made there has been rumblings about his game.

I say the inclusion of Cole will nullify the loss of Tyson. The rim protection between Cole and Dal should be enough to counter even old Tyson.

Jose Calderon's Offensive Boost

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