fishmike
Posts: 53040
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298 USA
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toad wrote:fishmike wrote:toad wrote:fishmike wrote:toad wrote:fishmike wrote:
http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win% 1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5 2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1 3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2 4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8 5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6 6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5 7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5 8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1 9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1 10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4 11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6 12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4 13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5 14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6 15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5 16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1 17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0 18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0 19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0 20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1 Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL. This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are - Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one? GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Carmelo Anthony. God that must hurt. Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result. Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :) You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid. The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have. Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line. I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball. You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won. Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses. In the 34 losses he shot 35% In the 31 wins he shot 45% A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible. We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old. The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really. This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it. The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy. As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player. good post... not much I disagree with there. However one thing... if Melo goes to Chi he will lead that team in shots taken and PPG. I think you would agree with that? My question is why do you think Melo can go to Chi and play a role as their big 3 scorer w/ Noah and Rose (assuming he can play again) but he cant do that here?Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants I more or less agree with this. My only disagreement is with the cause and effect. Does Melo play this way because thats what he wants? Or does he end up playing that way because the supporting cast is so poor and thats the best option the coach has to keep them in the game? Thibs called him a great playmaker for USA basketball. When Billups was at the top of his game they played great and had a playoff run to the conf finals. Iverson didnt work out but Melo's shooting %s where career highs the one year he had someone taking more shots than him. How many times have we seen Melo kick to wide open guys this year, ESPECIALLY Prig/Felton who then either brick it (Felton shoots 35% in Knick losses) or Prigs (we have yet to confirm he has ever taken a shot). I just want to see a competent coach brought in and given time to develop his own system and the coordination with the FO to bring in guys that fit the vision. I don't want to see that coach having to placate a 'superstar' who has his own timetable and his own brand to consider, who has Dolan's ear. Regardless of what you or I may think of our past coaches, we haven't had that for awhile. Some may believe Melo can get with the program at this point, but I just don't see it. Not here, unless someone like Phil is sitting on the bench. Not when he's the center of NY basketball and the media, in his 30s wondering where his ring is. If you believe he can, I can respect that. I could be wrong. But we've already seen that when things get tough or frustrating, he goes back to doing his own thing. I think Chicago would be different because they already have a strong identity. Houston, for example, I think would be a terrible place for him. Yeah, his 'shooters' didn't produce for him this year, partly due to JR's injury. But, they all looked confused out there. Chicken or egg? Who knows for sure, but they were clearly out of sync all year. Woodson's already suggested there's been disconnect in execution. More the reason I want to see a conscious effort to build a stronger coach-system-player core. I just think it's the wrong time and place to commit that money to Melo. Toad... we are actually 100% on the same page. Ive posted on this forum for over ten years now. Ive seen cast after cast of idiots and fools try to put their imprint on this thing and its one failure after another. The one thing above all else I have been calling for since day one is STYLE OF PLAY. Exactly what your talking about. A president, owner, GM, coach, player personel.. all of it on the same page. What kind of team are we trying to build? What is our style of player? We have seen defensive teams compete for titles. We have seen offensive teams compete for titles. What the Knicks have had is a hodge podge of rotating players. In many ways Melo is an extension of the Isiah era. The MO was aquire any talented player possible in any way possible. No consideration to how it affects the roster, or if your other pieces fit, or if their styles of play mesh... nothing. Just throw poop on the wall and see if it sticks. If Phil and company see Melo as piece to their puzzle then great. If they trade him for other pieces of their puzzle great. Its my opinion that because he's still playing at a high level and his game improves each year AND we have one pick in the next 3 years AND Phil probably didnt come here for 5 years at age 95 to watch rookies possibly develop or not, that we keep him and add pieces that fit. He's a scorer. You always need a scorer. The Bulls have an MVP PG, one of the best bigs in the game and seem willing to pay Boozer $17mm to sit home and trade Taj Gibson whos a beast for nothing just to add this scorer. We will see, but ultimately I want exactly what you mentioned... synergy in the FO and on the bench. Something we have not seen here since Riley left.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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