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Melo MRI: tear in right labrum
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tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
4/17/2014  2:24 PM
toad wrote:
fishmike wrote:
toad wrote:
fishmike wrote:
toad wrote:
fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

good post... not much I disagree with there. However one thing... if Melo goes to Chi he will lead that team in shots taken and PPG. I think you would agree with that? My question is why do you think Melo can go to Chi and play a role as their big 3 scorer w/ Noah and Rose (assuming he can play again) but he cant do that here?

Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants
I more or less agree with this. My only disagreement is with the cause and effect. Does Melo play this way because thats what he wants? Or does he end up playing that way because the supporting cast is so poor and thats the best option the coach has to keep them in the game? Thibs called him a great playmaker for USA basketball. When Billups was at the top of his game they played great and had a playoff run to the conf finals. Iverson didnt work out but Melo's shooting %s where career highs the one year he had someone taking more shots than him. How many times have we seen Melo kick to wide open guys this year, ESPECIALLY Prig/Felton who then either brick it (Felton shoots 35% in Knick losses) or Prigs (we have yet to confirm he has ever taken a shot).

I just want to see a competent coach brought in and given time to develop his own system and the coordination with the FO to bring in guys that fit the vision. I don't want to see that coach having to placate a 'superstar' who has his own timetable and his own brand to consider, who has Dolan's ear. Regardless of what you or I may think of our past coaches, we haven't had that for awhile.

Some may believe Melo can get with the program at this point, but I just don't see it. Not here, unless someone like Phil is sitting on the bench. Not when he's the center of NY basketball and the media, in his 30s wondering where his ring is. If you believe he can, I can respect that. I could be wrong. But we've already seen that when things get tough or frustrating, he goes back to doing his own thing. I think Chicago would be different because they already have a strong identity. Houston, for example, I think would be a terrible place for him.

Yeah, his 'shooters' didn't produce for him this year, partly due to JR's injury. But, they all looked confused out there. Chicken or egg? Who knows for sure, but they were clearly out of sync all year. Woodson's already suggested there's been disconnect in execution. More the reason I want to see a conscious effort to build a stronger coach-system-player core. I just think it's the wrong time and place to commit that money to Melo.


good post toad.. I want to move closer to the spurs model of doing business.. I like things that just work and last..

we have been down this road and honestly we have history on our side with carmelo...

I want to cut ties with every single player on this team...

New direction, new players, new coach, staff.....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
AUTOADVERT
toad
Posts: 20210
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Joined: 9/14/2012
Member: #4338

4/17/2014  2:38 PM
tkf wrote:
toad wrote:
I just want to see a competent coach brought in and given time to develop his own system and the coordination with the FO to bring in guys that fit the vision. I don't want to see that coach having to placate a 'superstar' who has his own timetable and his own brand to consider, who has Dolan's ear. Regardless of what you or I may think of our past coaches, we haven't had that for awhile.

Some may believe Melo can get with the program at this point, but I just don't see it. Not here, unless someone like Phil is sitting on the bench. Not when he's the center of NY basketball and the media, in his 30s wondering where his ring is. If you believe he can, I can respect that. I could be wrong. But we've already seen that when things get tough or frustrating, he goes back to doing his own thing. I think Chicago would be different because they already have a strong identity. Houston, for example, I think would be a terrible place for him.

Yeah, his 'shooters' didn't produce for him this year, partly due to JR's injury. But, they all looked confused out there. Chicken or egg? Who knows for sure, but they were clearly out of sync all year. Woodson's already suggested there's been disconnect in execution. More the reason I want to see a conscious effort to build a stronger coach-system-player core. I just think it's the wrong time and place to commit that money to Melo.


good post toad.. I want to move closer to the spurs model of doing business.. I like things that just work and last..

we have been down this road and honestly we have history on our side with carmelo...

I want to cut ties with every single player on this team...

New direction, new players, new coach, staff.....

So do I, but I admit some of that feeling may be from the absolute disgust after watching this season. And I know it's just an opinion of what I'd like to see after so many years of nonsense. I'm sure there are other viable options to contend. I do think though they're going to sign Melo though, so we'll see what magic Phil can do in a relatively short timespan.

tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
4/17/2014  2:54 PM
toad wrote:
tkf wrote:
toad wrote:
I just want to see a competent coach brought in and given time to develop his own system and the coordination with the FO to bring in guys that fit the vision. I don't want to see that coach having to placate a 'superstar' who has his own timetable and his own brand to consider, who has Dolan's ear. Regardless of what you or I may think of our past coaches, we haven't had that for awhile.

Some may believe Melo can get with the program at this point, but I just don't see it. Not here, unless someone like Phil is sitting on the bench. Not when he's the center of NY basketball and the media, in his 30s wondering where his ring is. If you believe he can, I can respect that. I could be wrong. But we've already seen that when things get tough or frustrating, he goes back to doing his own thing. I think Chicago would be different because they already have a strong identity. Houston, for example, I think would be a terrible place for him.

Yeah, his 'shooters' didn't produce for him this year, partly due to JR's injury. But, they all looked confused out there. Chicken or egg? Who knows for sure, but they were clearly out of sync all year. Woodson's already suggested there's been disconnect in execution. More the reason I want to see a conscious effort to build a stronger coach-system-player core. I just think it's the wrong time and place to commit that money to Melo.


good post toad.. I want to move closer to the spurs model of doing business.. I like things that just work and last..

we have been down this road and honestly we have history on our side with carmelo...

I want to cut ties with every single player on this team...

New direction, new players, new coach, staff.....

So do I, but I admit some of that feeling may be from the absolute disgust after watching this season. And I know it's just an opinion of what I'd like to see after so many years of nonsense. I'm sure there are other viable options to contend. I do think though they're going to sign Melo though, so we'll see what magic Phil can do in a relatively short timespan.


I know phil as a coach.. can't judge him as an exec yet.. but if his plan is to sign carmelo long term, I can tell you I personally think it is a huge mistake.. for example.. I used to be a odom fan, so don't get me wrong.... but why was it imperative we sign him now? this is a guy who is coming off of reported drug issues, he really did a number on Dallas an cuban who gave him a chance, this guy has been a wreck the past few years.. why reward him with a contract now. I would invite him to camp next year and have him earn a deal..

again, not the worst thing in the world, but if this is how phil is going to do business, then I will definately take the wait and see approach..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
Posts: 53040
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
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4/17/2014  3:00 PM
toad wrote:
fishmike wrote:
toad wrote:
fishmike wrote:
toad wrote:
fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

good post... not much I disagree with there. However one thing... if Melo goes to Chi he will lead that team in shots taken and PPG. I think you would agree with that? My question is why do you think Melo can go to Chi and play a role as their big 3 scorer w/ Noah and Rose (assuming he can play again) but he cant do that here?

Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants
I more or less agree with this. My only disagreement is with the cause and effect. Does Melo play this way because thats what he wants? Or does he end up playing that way because the supporting cast is so poor and thats the best option the coach has to keep them in the game? Thibs called him a great playmaker for USA basketball. When Billups was at the top of his game they played great and had a playoff run to the conf finals. Iverson didnt work out but Melo's shooting %s where career highs the one year he had someone taking more shots than him. How many times have we seen Melo kick to wide open guys this year, ESPECIALLY Prig/Felton who then either brick it (Felton shoots 35% in Knick losses) or Prigs (we have yet to confirm he has ever taken a shot).

I just want to see a competent coach brought in and given time to develop his own system and the coordination with the FO to bring in guys that fit the vision. I don't want to see that coach having to placate a 'superstar' who has his own timetable and his own brand to consider, who has Dolan's ear. Regardless of what you or I may think of our past coaches, we haven't had that for awhile.

Some may believe Melo can get with the program at this point, but I just don't see it. Not here, unless someone like Phil is sitting on the bench. Not when he's the center of NY basketball and the media, in his 30s wondering where his ring is. If you believe he can, I can respect that. I could be wrong. But we've already seen that when things get tough or frustrating, he goes back to doing his own thing. I think Chicago would be different because they already have a strong identity. Houston, for example, I think would be a terrible place for him.

Yeah, his 'shooters' didn't produce for him this year, partly due to JR's injury. But, they all looked confused out there. Chicken or egg? Who knows for sure, but they were clearly out of sync all year. Woodson's already suggested there's been disconnect in execution. More the reason I want to see a conscious effort to build a stronger coach-system-player core. I just think it's the wrong time and place to commit that money to Melo.

Toad... we are actually 100% on the same page. Ive posted on this forum for over ten years now. Ive seen cast after cast of idiots and fools try to put their imprint on this thing and its one failure after another. The one thing above all else I have been calling for since day one is STYLE OF PLAY. Exactly what your talking about. A president, owner, GM, coach, player personel.. all of it on the same page. What kind of team are we trying to build? What is our style of player? We have seen defensive teams compete for titles. We have seen offensive teams compete for titles. What the Knicks have had is a hodge podge of rotating players.

In many ways Melo is an extension of the Isiah era. The MO was aquire any talented player possible in any way possible. No consideration to how it affects the roster, or if your other pieces fit, or if their styles of play mesh... nothing. Just throw poop on the wall and see if it sticks.

If Phil and company see Melo as piece to their puzzle then great. If they trade him for other pieces of their puzzle great. Its my opinion that because he's still playing at a high level and his game improves each year AND we have one pick in the next 3 years AND Phil probably didnt come here for 5 years at age 95 to watch rookies possibly develop or not, that we keep him and add pieces that fit. He's a scorer. You always need a scorer. The Bulls have an MVP PG, one of the best bigs in the game and seem willing to pay Boozer $17mm to sit home and trade Taj Gibson whos a beast for nothing just to add this scorer. We will see, but ultimately I want exactly what you mentioned... synergy in the FO and on the bench. Something we have not seen here since Riley left.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
toad
Posts: 20210
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4/17/2014  3:03 PM
tkf wrote:
I know phil as a coach.. can't judge him as an exec yet.. but if his plan is to sign carmelo long term, I can tell you I personally think it is a huge mistake.. for example.. I used to be a odom fan, so don't get me wrong.... but why was it imperative we sign him now? this is a guy who is coming off of reported drug issues, he really did a number on Dallas an cuban who gave him a chance, this guy has been a wreck the past few years.. why reward him with a contract now. I would invite him to camp next year and have him earn a deal..

again, not the worst thing in the world, but if this is how phil is going to do business, then I will definately take the wait and see approach..

Well, you figure Phil was going to start bringing in his own guys at some point. It's a nonguaranteed contract and signing him now gives them time to see what's going on with him. If he's ok in the head, at worst, he helps in teaching the triangle. It tells me, if there was any doubt, that we're going that route. Kerr must be on deck, don't you think?

fishmike
Posts: 53040
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Member: #298
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4/17/2014  3:04 PM
RonRon wrote:In my opinion Phil Jackson will not pay Melo the MAX
It defeats the whole purpose if getting Phil Jackson if so
It limits his ability to build a team to contend

However, I can see a possible deal structured like this starting with this summer

Max
10m *2015 UFA's*
10m *2016 FA's including Durant both Noah who both would be PERFECT ALL STARs for the Triangle with their versatility, all round skills, physical abilities, and DEFENSIVE abilities
Max
Max

a 5 year deal that would still be about 100m, though leaving room for the ability the add talent in both 2015 or/and 2016

you cant do that. The CBA doesnt allow it.

It will be interesting right? Lets see what Phil does. He can pay Melo $25mm next year. Or if Melo is willing to leave money on the table has he had publicly said Phil could give him a "max" contract that another team could pay, like DHoward money w/ Houston.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
jrodmc
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4/17/2014  3:12 PM
fishmike wrote:In many ways Melo is an extension of the Isiah era. The MO was aquire any talented player possible in any way possible. No consideration to how it affects the roster, or if your other pieces fit, or if their styles of play mesh... nothing. Just throw poop on the wall and see if it sticks.

If Phil and company see Melo as piece to their puzzle then great. If they trade him for other pieces of their puzzle great. Its my opinion that because he's still playing at a high level and his game improves each year AND we have one pick in the next 3 years AND Phil probably didnt come here for 5 years at age 95 to watch rookies possibly develop or not, that we keep him and add pieces that fit. He's a scorer. You always need a scorer. The Bulls have an MVP PG, one of the best bigs in the game and seem willing to pay Boozer $17mm to sit home and trade Taj Gibson whos a beast for nothing just to add this scorer. We will see, but ultimately I want exactly what you mentioned... synergy in the FO and on the bench. Something we have not seen here since Riley left.

+1 fish.
I don't understand how the wannabe realgms in here don't get this.
This franchise has never done the build from the draft thing. Ever. Ewing don't count, that (as the dearly departed playa would tell you with crayoned youtube vids) was a conspiracy.

This is not San Antonio. Or OKC. Or Indy. Whining for that way of life is akin to pinning your hopes and dreams on lottery tickets. Actually, it's worse. Even when we imported Indy's management, we still ended up being the Knicks. Amazing, isn't it?

For people who value rational realism, you get fairly few posts about it.

tkf
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4/17/2014  3:24 PM
toad wrote:
tkf wrote:
I know phil as a coach.. can't judge him as an exec yet.. but if his plan is to sign carmelo long term, I can tell you I personally think it is a huge mistake.. for example.. I used to be a odom fan, so don't get me wrong.... but why was it imperative we sign him now? this is a guy who is coming off of reported drug issues, he really did a number on Dallas an cuban who gave him a chance, this guy has been a wreck the past few years.. why reward him with a contract now. I would invite him to camp next year and have him earn a deal..

again, not the worst thing in the world, but if this is how phil is going to do business, then I will definately take the wait and see approach..

Well, you figure Phil was going to start bringing in his own guys at some point. It's a nonguaranteed contract and signing him now gives them time to see what's going on with him. If he's ok in the head, at worst, he helps in teaching the triangle. It tells me, if there was any doubt, that we're going that route. Kerr must be on deck, don't you think?

I don't like offering him a deal to see whats going on in that head.. if we are considering him at all, we should have a good idea of that.. again, nothing major, but something to look at.. again, odom is 35, i want to get away from that, enough with the reclaimation projects.. LOL.. maybe I am asking too much to just start fresh.... I don't want any more hail mary pass type moves for this team... I mean you don't bring in a bill belicheck to design a hail mary play and you don't bring in phil to do the same thing we have been doing the past decade... but I will see where he is going before I judge..

I definately think we are going triangle.. wouldn't be surprised to see kerr on deck.. i like him, good basketball guy, smart dude....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
gunsnewing
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4/17/2014  3:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/17/2014  3:31 PM
Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

yellowboy90
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4/17/2014  3:36 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

Exactly, its a smart gm move any way you cut it. It's another asset to use or not use that doesn't cost anything really.

Phil was only involved in the coaching search it was said but I agree with you that Josh, Tyreke, and etc are not the type of players you want to bring in. However, it should be noted that Lamar Odom was probably in the Josh Smith category before Phil got him.

fishmike
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4/17/2014  3:49 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

just playing devil's advocate, You dont see a role Josh Smith could play on a winning team? Brandon Jennings is garbage but Josh Smith is really solid. Played on some bad teams etc... but has some damn good tools.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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4/17/2014  3:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/17/2014  3:52 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

Exactly, its a smart gm move any way you cut it. It's another asset to use or not use that doesn't cost anything really.

Phil was only involved in the coaching search it was said but I agree with you that Josh, Tyreke, and etc are not the type of players you want to bring in. However, it should be noted that Lamar Odom was probably in the Josh Smith category before Phil got him.

Yea but Phil's not coaching his zen

tkf
Posts: 36487
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4/17/2014  3:58 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT


lol.. MAYBE HE was getting back at dumars for his detroit team beating the lakers in the finals.... hahahaha
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
yellowboy90
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4/17/2014  4:00 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

Exactly, its a smart gm move any way you cut it. It's another asset to use or not use that doesn't cost anything really.

Phil was only involved in the coaching search it was said but I agree with you that Josh, Tyreke, and etc are not the type of players you want to bring in. However, it should be noted that Lamar Odom was probably in the Josh Smith category before Phil got him.

Yea but Phil's not coaching his zen

It has been said that Phil was never a great in game coach but he put a system in place and developed a culture. Let the new coach put in the system and Phil will help players fine tune their game if he sees he needs to. Kinda like Pat Riley when Spoel 1st took over.

jrodmc
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4/17/2014  4:22 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

+1 guns; And I actually said rational realism was lacking in here.

I can't believe Phil being that dumb about Josh, even on his worst day. And you don't really think he'd even consider that if Melo re-ups, right? The game is still played with only one ball, right? (almost typed 're-signs'.. tkf would've proposed to me.)

Can you imagine? Josh, Melo and JR all on the floor at the same time? Every game thread would be 30 pages long.

dk7th
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4/18/2014  12:23 AM
toad wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

Honestly, I can't even make sense of what you're talking about. You spend all your time demarcating 'my side' vs. 'your side' and arguing with your own made-up foes. I can only hope you're related to Melo, or you might just be nuts.

my money is on nuts

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
dk7th
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4/18/2014  12:28 AM
tkf wrote:
toad wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

Honestly, I can't even make sense of what you're talking about. You spend all your time demarcating 'my side' vs. 'your side' and arguing with your own made-up foes. I can only hope you're related to Melo, or you might just be nuts.

rofl.. this post hit the nail on the head.

it's really hilarious LOL my sides are hurting

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
dk7th
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4/18/2014  12:35 AM
fishmike wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

just playing devil's advocate, You dont see a role Josh Smith could play on a winning team? Brandon Jennings is garbage but Josh Smith is really solid. Played on some bad teams etc... but has some damn good tools.

you are just confirming how myopic and narrow-minded you are in terms of judging talent and forming a winner. josh smith is just a one-inch taller version of anthony just like marbury was a five inch shorter version of anthony. honestly you cannot be serious, or at this point cannot be taken seriously.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
mreinman
Posts: 37827
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4/18/2014  12:07 PM
dk7th wrote:
fishmike wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

just playing devil's advocate, You dont see a role Josh Smith could play on a winning team? Brandon Jennings is garbage but Josh Smith is really solid. Played on some bad teams etc... but has some damn good tools.

you are just confirming how myopic and narrow-minded you are in terms of judging talent and forming a winner. josh smith is just a one-inch taller version of anthony just like marbury was a five inch shorter version of anthony. honestly you cannot be serious, or at this point cannot be taken seriously.

Josh Smith sucks but comparing him to Anthony just confirms how myopic and narrow-minded you are when it comes to Melo.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
dk7th
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4/18/2014  12:13 PM
mreinman wrote:
dk7th wrote:
fishmike wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Don't forget that odom is a moveable piece as his 2nd year is a team option. Like Gadzuric was in the brilliant Felton trade.

My biggest fear is reliving the Isiah days and Phil using Amare & Bargs contracts to bring it in the josh smiths of the world because he thinks they will do well in their roles. Maybe but I don't want to be subjected to watching more low IQ chuck chuck basketball. I think it was Phil who suggested acquiring Josh to Dumars yowser

I much rather suck next year. Draft well add complementary FA pieces after 2015 BUT THE KNICKS ARE NEVER PATIENT

just playing devil's advocate, You dont see a role Josh Smith could play on a winning team? Brandon Jennings is garbage but Josh Smith is really solid. Played on some bad teams etc... but has some damn good tools.

you are just confirming how myopic and narrow-minded you are in terms of judging talent and forming a winner. josh smith is just a one-inch taller version of anthony just like marbury was a five inch shorter version of anthony. honestly you cannot be serious, or at this point cannot be taken seriously.

Josh Smith sucks but comparing him to Anthony just confirms how myopic and narrow-minded you are when it comes to Melo.

i think your issue is with fishmike who implied that the two players are comparable.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Melo MRI: tear in right labrum

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