gunsnewing wrote:^great frickin post toad

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

good post... not much I disagree with there. However one thing... if Melo goes to Chi he will lead that team in shots taken and PPG. I think you would agree with that? My question is why do you think Melo can go to Chi and play a role as their big 3 scorer w/ Noah and Rose (assuming he can play again) but he cant do that here?

because we won't have any way to get a Noah and a Rose once we pay Melo $25 mil per. You realize there's a salary cap, right? And that we have very few picks and no emerging stars?

Im sorry... I missed that. We are paying Melo $25mm? He's resigned already? Want to work with facts or just be snitty?

jrodmc wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

it didn't.. discount kidd and the other vets all you want, but they are not here and this team fell apart....

it's funny carmelo according to you guys was the 3rd best player in the league because he finished 3rd in MVP voting... yet this year according to you guys is his best year and he is no where to be mentioned in any MVP race..

so according to you guys, MVP year and we win 54 games

This year, best year of his career and we win 37 games....

sounds like a zero sum player.. no matter what he does, the impact of the team is moreso affected by those around him....

this year it was bad players... so last year we must have had good players.. right...

you see carmelo his whole career is the type of player who doesn't make guys around him better, but they make him better.. classic example chauncey billups, jason kidd, andre miller.... thats if you want to count his denver years..LOL

This is a huge problem when it comes to talking compensation and roles on a team..... He is just not suited to be the leader of any team, making max money..

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

it didn't.. discount kidd and the other vets all you want, but they are not here and this team fell apart....

it's funny carmelo according to you guys was the 3rd best player in the league because he finished 3rd in MVP voting... yet this year according to you guys is his best year and he is no where to be mentioned in any MVP race..

so according to you guys, MVP year and we win 54 games

This year, best year of his career and we win 37 games....

sounds like a zero sum player.. no matter what he does, the impact of the team is moreso affected by those around him....

this year it was bad players... so last year we must have had good players.. right...

you see carmelo his whole career is the type of player who doesn't make guys around him better, but they make him better.. classic example chauncey billups, jason kidd, andre miller.... thats if you want to count his denver years..LOL

This is a huge problem when it comes to talking compensation and roles on a team..... He is just not suited to be the leader of any team, making max money..

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

good post... not much I disagree with there. However one thing... if Melo goes to Chi he will lead that team in shots taken and PPG. I think you would agree with that? My question is why do you think Melo can go to Chi and play a role as their big 3 scorer w/ Noah and Rose (assuming he can play again) but he cant do that here?

because we won't have any way to get a Noah and a Rose once we pay Melo $25 mil per. You realize there's a salary cap, right? And that we have very few picks and no emerging stars?

Im sorry... I missed that. We are paying Melo $25mm? He's resigned already? Want to work with facts or just be snitty?

We're paying him market value, according to you, and he's a top 3 MVP player according to you?
If you think I'm snitty, you haven't been reading your own posts very carefully.

exactly, because fishmike went nuts when dk suggested paying him 12-14 mil a year.... so I guess fish is expecting him to get max money..

Did I go nuts? Thats more up your alley, but yea.. I blasted the notion for what it is.

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

good post... not much I disagree with there. However one thing... if Melo goes to Chi he will lead that team in shots taken and PPG. I think you would agree with that? My question is why do you think Melo can go to Chi and play a role as their big 3 scorer w/ Noah and Rose (assuming he can play again) but he cant do that here?

because we won't have any way to get a Noah and a Rose once we pay Melo $25 mil per. You realize there's a salary cap, right? And that we have very few picks and no emerging stars?

Im sorry... I missed that. We are paying Melo $25mm? He's resigned already? Want to work with facts or just be snitty?

We're paying him market value, according to you, and he's a top 3 MVP player according to you?
If you think I'm snitty, you haven't been reading your own posts very carefully.

exactly, because fishmike went nuts when dk suggested paying him 12-14 mil a year.... so I guess fish is expecting him to get max money..

oh no... the suggestion is great. That would be a wonderful signing. Its a stupid notion because its not reality based, and his comment was thats what Melo is WORTH. He also thinks Gallo (your sweetheart) who is paid in the same range (about $2mm less) and sucks even when he does play (which is never) is a GOOD CONTRACT.

Did I go nuts? Thats more up your alley, but yea.. I blasted the notion for what it is.

we shall see what is closer to reality. i believe jackson is a realist. you think he will get the max, isn't that right?

jrodmc wrote:
toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

Honestly, I can't even make sense of what you're talking about. You spend all your time demarcating 'my side' vs. 'your side' and arguing with your own made-up foes. I can only hope you're related to Melo, or you might just be nuts.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:It can't be all about Melo anymore. It stunts the development of younger Players and maxing him out hurts our ability to add premier talent. He's not Jordan Kobe or Lebron. Not the same motor for both ends of the floor

Guns... its only all about Melo because there is nothing, literally nothing else for this team to be all about. Did Melo hurt THjr's development? Didnt Lin, Novak and Copeland all get big contracts after playing a short time with Melo? Who are these young talented players that Melo is holding back? We got a nice long look at Murray and Tyler for a few games. Where you impressed? I mean come on.

Nobody is saying we should keep Melo over Jordan, Lebron or Kobe, but I wasnt aware those guys were looking to sign here. Seriously...

rofl.. Lin did all his big work with carmelo in street clothes.. if anything he got novak his money.. please I can't believe you tried to go there.. rofl..

toad wrote:

jrodmc wrote:
toad, you can't have it both ways.

He can't be a good player on a bad team that only won 37 games because his strengths and ego lead to all the losses. If his strengths and stupidity led to 37 wins, how is he a good player on a bad team? That would be a bad player on a bad team, right? How did his strengths and ego produce 54 wins, and please don't give me the Coach PepsiKidd and his .07 FG% argument.

The argument is Melo has been consistently good, this entire season; the only player on this team to do so. There is also an element here insisting, like you do, for personal reasons, that coming off the best individual season of his career (things like rebounding and defense -- you know things like blocks and steals come to mind) he's somehow not worth it. Or put more succinctly, he's not worth anything. Or he should prepare himself to make something akin to the MLE in order "fit in".

Saying Chicago is a good option is brilliant. They are a better team. With a better coach. And what, exactly, do you see Chicago paying Melo to be an important cog?

And if Melo ends up in Chicago and they win a chip, I suppose it would have been despite Melo's strengths and ego, right?

Honestly, I can't even make sense of what you're talking about. You spend all your time demarcating 'my side' vs. 'your side' and arguing with your own made-up foes. I can only hope you're related to Melo, or you might just be nuts.

rofl.. this post hit the nail on the head.