Papabear wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Papabear wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:What help did Ainge actually get? They gave up Al Jefferson in one deal and a top 5 draft pick in another to acquire those guys.

Those players werent gifted to Boston, they traded things the Knicks dont have.

I do find this thread amusing...the Knicks have one of the greatest basketball minds in the organization now, and there are doubts of what he could do.

But this garbage roster was defended to sheer eternity.

Papabear Says

So what you are telling me that if we were able to make the same offer we could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

Business is business. I doubt that any team would pass on an opportunity to improve themselves, to spite the city of New York. Its hard to even argue the counterpoint because we've had so little talent to bargain with in trades. Who would want to clamor for the opportunity to trade for 2009 Eddy Curry? Jerome James? Etc.

Papabear Says

Thats BS we gave away Ariza, Zach Randolph, Crawford, for little or nothing in order to make cap space and we was winning with Zach and Crawford. Ahh thats right we was so sure to get LeBron.

We got Al Harrington (our leading scorer for a season) for Jamal Crawford so I think that deal was a wash. As far as the other guys, we moved them when their value was at an all-time low. So, what would you expect?

Papabear Says

Al Harrington?? Where is he now. And where is Zach and where is Crawford? No We gave them away.

You're talking about the trade, 6 years after the fact, which makes no sense. At the time and for the immediate future, the deal was reasonable for both teams. Through your line of reasoning, the Celtics also made a bad move trading for Garnett because 7 years after the fact, he is no longer with the team and a fringe starter while Jefferson is still a 20-10 big. That type of thinking is clearly flawed.

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:What help did Ainge actually get? They gave up Al Jefferson in one deal and a top 5 draft pick in another to acquire those guys.

Those players werent gifted to Boston, they traded things the Knicks dont have.

I do find this thread amusing...the Knicks have one of the greatest basketball minds in the organization now, and there are doubts of what he could do.

But this garbage roster was defended to sheer eternity.

Papabear Says

So what you are telling me that if we were able to make the same offer we could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

No we couldnt, because we dont have a big man capable of 20-10 or a top 5 pick in the draft coming up....like Boston did.

What I am telling you is Boston gave up quality to get those guys.

Papabear Says

MAN LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING!!! if we were able to make the same offer (same players) could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

I dont recall the Knicks giving up a top 5 pick or 20-10 big men to get melo...so it all evens itself out.

You really believe the Knicks are hated...nobody hates on a perennial loser.

Papabear Says

You are avoiding answering my question so I am finished debating you. You know exactly what I mean. Danny Ainge got Garnett because he was in tight with the GM. If We had the same players that Boston had to make a deal to get Garnett we would have gotten turned down. I can't explain it any better so stop avoiding my question. I will not speak on it again. by

You havent asked me anything, you're just making a baseless ridiculous claim.

Boston didnt get KG and Ray via a fleecing like the Lakers did getting Pau headlined by Kwame Brown.

Boston gave up good piece to get their players.

And the point I made closes the door on this nonsense....we gave up average players and got a perennial allstar....didnt we?

Papabear Says

So if my thread is nonsense I guess you won't be posting on it anymore.

NardDogNation wrote:

Papabear wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Papabear wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:What help did Ainge actually get? They gave up Al Jefferson in one deal and a top 5 draft pick in another to acquire those guys.

Those players werent gifted to Boston, they traded things the Knicks dont have.

I do find this thread amusing...the Knicks have one of the greatest basketball minds in the organization now, and there are doubts of what he could do.

But this garbage roster was defended to sheer eternity.

Papabear Says

So what you are telling me that if we were able to make the same offer we could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

Business is business. I doubt that any team would pass on an opportunity to improve themselves, to spite the city of New York. Its hard to even argue the counterpoint because we've had so little talent to bargain with in trades. Who would want to clamor for the opportunity to trade for 2009 Eddy Curry? Jerome James? Etc.

Papabear Says

Thats BS we gave away Ariza, Zach Randolph, Crawford, for little or nothing in order to make cap space and we was winning with Zach and Crawford. Ahh thats right we was so sure to get LeBron.

We got Al Harrington (our leading scorer for a season) for Jamal Crawford so I think that deal was a wash. As far as the other guys, we moved them when their value was at an all-time low. So, what would you expect?

Papabear Says

Al Harrington?? Where is he now. And where is Zach and where is Crawford? No We gave them away.

You're talking about the trade, 6 years after the fact, which makes no sense. At the time and for the immediate future, the deal was reasonable for both teams. Through your line of reasoning, the Celtics also made a bad move trading for Garnett because 7 years after the fact, he is no longer with the team and a fringe starter while Jefferson is still a 20-10 big. That type of thinking is clearly flawed.

Papabear Says

So if my thread is pointless I guess you won't be posting on it anymore.

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:What help did Ainge actually get? They gave up Al Jefferson in one deal and a top 5 draft pick in another to acquire those guys.

Those players werent gifted to Boston, they traded things the Knicks dont have.

I do find this thread amusing...the Knicks have one of the greatest basketball minds in the organization now, and there are doubts of what he could do.

But this garbage roster was defended to sheer eternity.

Papabear Says

So what you are telling me that if we were able to make the same offer we could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

No we couldnt, because we dont have a big man capable of 20-10 or a top 5 pick in the draft coming up....like Boston did.

What I am telling you is Boston gave up quality to get those guys.

Papabear Says

MAN LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING!!! if we were able to make the same offer (same players) could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

I dont recall the Knicks giving up a top 5 pick or 20-10 big men to get melo...so it all evens itself out.

You really believe the Knicks are hated...nobody hates on a perennial loser.

Papabear Says

You are avoiding answering my question so I am finished debating you. You know exactly what I mean. Danny Ainge got Garnett because he was in tight with the GM. If We had the same players that Boston had to make a deal to get Garnett we would have gotten turned down. I can't explain it any better so stop avoiding my question. I will not speak on it again. by

You havent asked me anything, you're just making a baseless ridiculous claim.

Boston didnt get KG and Ray via a fleecing like the Lakers did getting Pau headlined by Kwame Brown.

Boston gave up good piece to get their players.

And the point I made closes the door on this nonsense....we gave up average players and got a perennial allstar....didnt we?

Papabear Says

So if my thread is nonsense I guess you won't be posting on it anymore.

You should ask for it to be deleted, so i wont have no urges.

Papabear Says

Just avoid it. That's what I do. Why don't you do the same.

And I'm not you, I post wherever I want.....dont like it...dont quote me.

Papabear wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Papabear wrote:

knickscity wrote:What help did Ainge actually get? They gave up Al Jefferson in one deal and a top 5 draft pick in another to acquire those guys.

Those players werent gifted to Boston, they traded things the Knicks dont have.

I do find this thread amusing...the Knicks have one of the greatest basketball minds in the organization now, and there are doubts of what he could do.

But this garbage roster was defended to sheer eternity.

Papabear Says

So what you are telling me that if we were able to make the same offer we could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

No we couldnt, because we dont have a big man capable of 20-10 or a top 5 pick in the draft coming up....like Boston did.

What I am telling you is Boston gave up quality to get those guys.

Papabear Says

MAN LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING!!! if we were able to make the same offer (same players) could have gotten Garnett and Ray Allen. That is BS!!!

I dont recall the Knicks giving up a top 5 pick or 20-10 big men to get melo...so it all evens itself out.

You really believe the Knicks are hated...nobody hates on a perennial loser.

Papabear Says

You are avoiding answering my question so I am finished debating you. You know exactly what I mean. Danny Ainge got Garnett because he was in tight with the GM. If We had the same players that Boston had to make a deal to get Garnett we would have gotten turned down. I can't explain it any better so stop avoiding my question. I will not speak on it again. by

So if Danny Ainge was our GM and we had the same players the Celtics had, you don't think we could've gotten Garnett?

Papabear Says

So you see what I am saying. Ainge would never become a Knicks GM too much hate. Thats why Ainge was able to get Garnett from his buddy in Minny. Get Real.

No, I don't see what you're saying. I'm not sure how my previous comment confirmed that for you.

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:If we keep Melo, I want to see a deal for Josh Smith and Greg Monroe. A frontcourt with those 3 and Amare as our 6th man would be pretty good in the triangle. Hopefully we could get a deal for OJ Mayo as well to be our point.

Stop with the Josh Smith stuff. He is everything that you don't want in a player.

There are always players who "is everything you don't want in a player" that conveniently shed that title when they get better teammates. People seem to forget that he was a perennial all-star candidate.

all star means nothing. fans are idiots and have no idea what constitutes a good player.

He was getting consideration from the coaches, not the fans. And yes, fans are idiots. They are the same people that characterize a Monta Ellis as being a "cancer", then praise him for "turning the corner" (with the Mavs) despite making no discernible changes to his game, aside from playing with better teammates. Josh Smith is basically the same caliber of player and can have that impact if put in the right circumstances.

Your comment about Monta Ellis sums up your misjudgment of play. And, Ellis is still no great shakes but Carlisle is concentrating more on what he does well and Ellis is buying in more.

Smith has the dumbest shot selection in the league which makes him an awful waste of talent.

The Mavericks were barely a .500 team last year and missed the playoffs. This season, they essentially brought back the same team yet are comfortably above .500 and just made the playoffs. The only real difference is a healthier Dirk and Monta Ellis. Ellis may be no "great shake" but he's good enough to make a very positive impact under the right circumstances, just as Josh Smith had done with the Hawks in the past.

You point to Smith's shot selection as a point of concern; a flaw. The fact is that all players, not named Kevin Durant and LeBron James, have flaws. I'm not sure why you choose to hold Smith to a different standard. In any case, when playing at the 4, Smith had one of the highest conversion rates in the league in the painted area. Bring in a competent coach that can get him to focus on shooting the ball there and Smith will be a net plus player. You're spending so much time on his minute flaws that you're forgetting how well he can impact a game in a number of respects (e.g. passing, rebounding, man defense, help defense, blocked shots, etc.)

Salbatross: salary albatross. Josh Smith is one of the top salbatrosses in the league right now.

I'm not paying his contract. Are you? I suppose there is 2015 to worry about but I'm highly skeptical that anyone will be available that is worth our while. The Mavericks played the cap space game for 2-3 years and the best they managed to do is the SG version of Josh Smith (Monta Ellis). We might as well sacrifice some of our flexibility for players that can help us win NOW, if we really intend on keeping Melo. I think Smith (and Greg Monroe) is that kind of player.

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:If we keep Melo, I want to see a deal for Josh Smith and Greg Monroe. A frontcourt with those 3 and Amare as our 6th man would be pretty good in the triangle. Hopefully we could get a deal for OJ Mayo as well to be our point.

Stop with the Josh Smith stuff. He is everything that you don't want in a player.

There are always players who "is everything you don't want in a player" that conveniently shed that title when they get better teammates. People seem to forget that he was a perennial all-star candidate.

all star means nothing. fans are idiots and have no idea what constitutes a good player.

He was getting consideration from the coaches, not the fans. And yes, fans are idiots. They are the same people that characterize a Monta Ellis as being a "cancer", then praise him for "turning the corner" (with the Mavs) despite making no discernible changes to his game, aside from playing with better teammates. Josh Smith is basically the same caliber of player and can have that impact if put in the right circumstances.

Your comment about Monta Ellis sums up your misjudgment of play. And, Ellis is still no great shakes but Carlisle is concentrating more on what he does well and Ellis is buying in more.

Smith has the dumbest shot selection in the league which makes him an awful waste of talent.

The Mavericks were barely a .500 team last year and missed the playoffs. This season, they essentially brought back the same team yet are comfortably above .500 and just made the playoffs. The only real difference is a healthier Dirk and Monta Ellis. Ellis may be no "great shake" but he's good enough to make a very positive impact under the right circumstances, just as Josh Smith had done with the Hawks in the past.

You point to Smith's shot selection as a point of concern; a flaw. The fact is that all players, not named Kevin Durant and LeBron James, have flaws. I'm not sure why you choose to hold Smith to a different standard. In any case, when playing at the 4, Smith had one of the highest conversion rates in the league in the painted area. Bring in a competent coach that can get him to focus on shooting the ball there and Smith will be a net plus player. You're spending so much time on his minute flaws that you're forgetting how well he can impact a game in a number of respects (e.g. passing, rebounding, man defense, help defense, blocked shots, etc.)

Salbatross: salary albatross. Josh Smith is one of the top salbatrosses in the league right now.

I'm not paying his contract. Are you? I suppose there is 2015 to worry about but I'm highly skeptical that anyone will be available that is worth our while. The Mavericks played the cap space game for 2-3 years and the best they managed to do is the SG version of Josh Smith (Monta Ellis). We might as well sacrifice some of our flexibility for players that can help us win NOW, if we really intend on keeping Melo. I think Smith (and Greg Monroe) is that kind of player.

Ok ... thats your opinion. I completely disagree and what you are suggesting is the type of moves that we have made over the years that got us into this mess. phuck 2014! I don't want any retarded contracts.

Yes, we made those moves WITHOUT a player of Melo's caliber. Now that we do have a player of Melo's caliber, trades like that make sense (see the Heat trading for Antawn Walker and Jason Williams before their first title run; see the Mavs trading for Raef LaFrentz and Nick Van Exel when Dirk was first confirmed to be a star).

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:If we keep Melo, I want to see a deal for Josh Smith and Greg Monroe. A frontcourt with those 3 and Amare as our 6th man would be pretty good in the triangle. Hopefully we could get a deal for OJ Mayo as well to be our point.

Stop with the Josh Smith stuff. He is everything that you don't want in a player.

There are always players who "is everything you don't want in a player" that conveniently shed that title when they get better teammates. People seem to forget that he was a perennial all-star candidate.

all star means nothing. fans are idiots and have no idea what constitutes a good player.

He was getting consideration from the coaches, not the fans. And yes, fans are idiots. They are the same people that characterize a Monta Ellis as being a "cancer", then praise him for "turning the corner" (with the Mavs) despite making no discernible changes to his game, aside from playing with better teammates. Josh Smith is basically the same caliber of player and can have that impact if put in the right circumstances.

Your comment about Monta Ellis sums up your misjudgment of play. And, Ellis is still no great shakes but Carlisle is concentrating more on what he does well and Ellis is buying in more.

Smith has the dumbest shot selection in the league which makes him an awful waste of talent.

The Mavericks were barely a .500 team last year and missed the playoffs. This season, they essentially brought back the same team yet are comfortably above .500 and just made the playoffs. The only real difference is a healthier Dirk and Monta Ellis. Ellis may be no "great shake" but he's good enough to make a very positive impact under the right circumstances, just as Josh Smith had done with the Hawks in the past.

You point to Smith's shot selection as a point of concern; a flaw. The fact is that all players, not named Kevin Durant and LeBron James, have flaws. I'm not sure why you choose to hold Smith to a different standard. In any case, when playing at the 4, Smith had one of the highest conversion rates in the league in the painted area. Bring in a competent coach that can get him to focus on shooting the ball there and Smith will be a net plus player. You're spending so much time on his minute flaws that you're forgetting how well he can impact a game in a number of respects (e.g. passing, rebounding, man defense, help defense, blocked shots, etc.)

Salbatross: salary albatross. Josh Smith is one of the top salbatrosses in the league right now.

I'm not paying his contract. Are you? I suppose there is 2015 to worry about but I'm highly skeptical that anyone will be available that is worth our while. The Mavericks played the cap space game for 2-3 years and the best they managed to do is the SG version of Josh Smith (Monta Ellis). We might as well sacrifice some of our flexibility for players that can help us win NOW, if we really intend on keeping Melo. I think Smith (and Greg Monroe) is that kind of player.

Ok ... thats your opinion. I completely disagree and what you are suggesting is the type of moves that we have made over the years that got us into this mess. phuck 2014! I don't want any retarded contracts.

Yes, we made those moves WITHOUT a player of Melo's caliber. Now that we do have a player of Melo's caliber, trades like that make sense (see the Mavs trading for Brandon Haywood, Shawn Marion before their title run).

Shawn Marion was always an excellent player.

Josh smith is an awful player especially with his salbatross.

I figured you'd say something like that (while ignoring how ****ty he was with the Raptors and Heat), which is why I changed my examples to include the Heat getting Antawn Walker and Jason Williams for their first title run and the Mavs getting Raef LaFrentz and Nick Van Exel when Dirk first became a star.

You want to chance the future on Josh Smith? That's fine. I don't.

I would make him take major pay cuts in 2015 and possibly in 2016
However, I wouldn't mind if he was payed for the max possible, above the 20m range in the other 3 years for

25m
10m
10m
27m
30m

Essentially a 5 year 100 million dollar deal but allows us to team up the ALL STAR's and pieces necessary to team up with him
While there are many great players in 2015, there are also some great players in 2016, leaving us room for improvement if we miss out on the 2015 FA sweepstakes

RonRon wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

As you can see we made our bed hard so we must sleep in it. Phil Jackson will not get help the same way Danny Ainge got when he got Garnet and Ray Allen for really nothing from his buddies. The Knicks are hated by all the teams. We are the Mecca of Basketball and we suck. Any trade we make we will be on the loosing end because no one wants to give us anything. No one really wanted us as the 8th seed either. We will have to build by getting players from over seas. All Phil can do is get Odoms to play for us? Next season will be more like this season if we can't get better players. The Heat and Brooklyn could have won those last 2 games but they didn't and we have no fault to blame but ourselves. Now it is time to see what Jackson can do if anything.

I agree with Papabear on this one, whether the hate is on NYK's or Dolan, other teams/GM's and players USE us and never give us the better deal, making us overpay for whatever it is
Only way to get out of that scenario is to collect as many assets, contract friendly players, and go through the process that Donnie Walsh did in addition to Isiah draft selections
Though we cannot trade/buy purchase picks the way we use to be able to with this new CBA, with the new salary cap and CBA, picks and cap space are worth much more than they once did

I believe Melo is gone, I don't see him staying for another year here without us making big changes, hopeful we can trade him to a team like Houston for the expirings of Lin/Asik in addition to multiple 1st and 2nd rounders (some of which that are in this upcoming draft)
While preserving cap space for 2015/2016 and continue to collect assets in picks, continued development in vet mins, and MLE (3 or 5m)

Target players like Kevin Love/Aldridge in 2015
Maybe Dragic and many other 2nd tier or role players

in 2016, target Noah and Durant, those are the type of two way ALL STARs I believe you can build around

Durant
Kevin Love
Noah

I believe those 3 above would be dominant enough to run the Triangle

Iman Shumpert and Chandler to OKC (possibly Asik too), JR Smith (as his value goes up with his health next season to a contender), Tim Hardaway JR (if we can sell high)

While getting rid of Felton and to a lessor extend Pablo

2015 pick
whatever we can trade Melo for (hoping 2 2nd rounders and 2 1st rounders)

We need great basketball minds that work together and it is Phil's job to get the right combination of STAFF to work together
This summer as President of Operations, Phil will fill the GM role, in addition to a HEAD COACH, Assistant Coaches, and Development Coaches to implement a philosophy and develop players

Steve Kerr
Ron Harper
Robert Horry
Derek Fisher

maybe Pippen, Brian Shaw, and some ex players if he wants to run the Triangle
If not, grabbing ex Poppavich pupils would make much sense

Look at how both Millsap and Al Jefferson have impacted their teams that already had some talent, their combined salary would be = to STAT and/or Melo's
We need to spend our $$$ effectively and efficiently, while not overpaying for talent

Melo is a good scorer but he is not to be compared to Lebron or Durant
In my opinion, he is closer to Monta Ellis but in the SF/PF position instead of PG/SG, while Ellis got about 12m

Great read. However, I don't agree with the Monta Ellis comparison at all.