dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:Melo's strength is he is one of the best players in the league, and he has no weakness that hinders his strength.

OAN the thread is garbage, no one should have to pick a side, this really is nothing but a ploy to further alienate the fanbase of this board.

nobody is asking you to pick a side. there are many posters who are willing to list both his strengths and his weaknesses.

as i said earlier i am trying to push the reset button and create some good will.

maybe you will reconsider, along with the others listed below, who also seem reluctant or hell bent on maintaining the status quo:

nykmentality
misterearl
anji
supreme commander
papabear
nupe
anubisadl

You should have edited your thread title, you are clearly edging people to pick a side, and indicate what side they are on.

But it matters little I gave my strengths and weakness....nothing to reconsider, I did it in my post.

if you have nothing of actual value to add maybe it's better to not say anything. not a good look here.

I listed Melo's strength and weakness in my post...is that not what you asked?

So how exactly is this melo thread any different? If you disagree, you claim there is nothing to add.

What really is there to add, we all know what melo's strengths and weaknesses are, you just want to identify contingents.

Sorry bro, no go from me.

you're playing games. i'm cool with that.

to sum up you claim that he is one of the best players in the league with no significant weaknesses that prevent him from being one of the best players in the league. basically sound and fury signifying nothing.

this melo thread is different if you allow it to be so but if you and a few others are hell bent on maintaining the status quo then that behavior says a whole lot more about you than you want it to.

i stated the purpose of the thread but you insist you know the true motivation, ie to identify "contingents."

connect the dots, guy. your behavior only serves to draw a line in the sand in order that you may create or galvanize contingents you despair of.

as i said, you're playing games.

I reserve that right all day everyday, as long as im not talking about you personally....deal with it.

RonRon wrote:
About Spree, that is the problem with people, they do not these players actually played dictate what play they were but their achievements and personal STAT's dictate who they are remembered, ironically in a TEAM SPORT

Spree was a great defender
Spree had to always guard the better player/normally best player/ whether he is bigger/stronger/more athletic/quicker or faster
Always played out of position for the better of his team and had to carry the team
We were not a high scoring team, the game was different/valuing each possession vs today's game

He had a good post up game, facilitated an offense, was extremely clutch, and had to do a little bit of EVERYTHING
He was the leader of the team, not Houston
Was the leader on the floor/played his heart out while Houston got the max extension and got the credit

The NY team was not very talented and had many flaws
----------------------------------------------------------
LJ great leader, but 6/4 PF's without athleticism don't work well vs 7footer
We tried to get another 6/4 PF's in Clarence Weatherspoon to replace him

Unfortunately when Camby broke down/Ewing trade/ Kurt Thomas becomes our 2nd/3rd best player on the floor *when Houston was breaking down*, many of his his Knick year's were wasted
Then Mcdyess blows up his knee*2 PF's in Kurt Thomas in Mcdyess would have failed anyway*

On Melo
---------

everyone pretty much here hit it on the spot, the ones that actually participated

Melo does not have the qualities of a franchise leader/player/max player *not at what his extension in a Joe Johnson like contract* but is a pure scorer
Max player for a rookie contract vs a player like Melo's next extension is about 10m per year *in which could kill a franchise's flexiblity and ability to build a contending team
If you do not have many asset's, picks, and player's under contract with very low salaries to compensate for his overpaid salary, it would be very hard to build a team around

He is extremely confident/stubborn that must have it his way or the highway
A quality that allows him to play in NY with all the media and also is part of his weakness at the same time because of his inability to adapt for the better of the team
Take's many bad shot's and has the ability to make them, as this could is negative and positive

He is just too in to himself/need's a coach/teamates to stroke his ego
He need's to be credited and point out a "HOCKEY ASSIST" while it has been called "GOOD BALL MOVEMENT" anywhere else in the league

Does not stay in shape/often need's to be reminded how hard he must stay in shape to get the best best production out of him

His mental approach to the game is "how can I score more points to open the court up for my team"
While Lebron/Durant actually look to see how the opponent's DEFENSE is playing them, and see's how they can attack the DEFENSE, to get the consistently shot %/attempt

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

I wish I could sig this whole post.. you hit the nail on the head.. I remember the day we got sprewell and for me, I had to accept that we were losing a fan favorite in starks in bringing in a guy with some baggage.. real baggage.. the turning point for me, is when spree came off the bench.. didn't really complain and played his arse off... then when the team needed him to play PG, he did so, although he only had a right hand at the time.... didn't complain.. Just played... watching him, houston and camby was fun... really fun, and what I loved about sprewell is that he really valued the defensive end as much as the offensive side of the ball.... he was a well rounded player and for a short time, a real leader of the knicks..

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

that is such a great point, I don't think anyone doubts he is a great scorer.. for me, He is more of a great streak scorer.. I mean, no one looks at lebron as a great scorer, yet he came into the league at the same time carmelo did, and he is 3000+ points ahead of him.... some perspective here.. carmelo is a great STREAK scorer and that is fine... for those who enjoy scoring in bunches.. but there is a downside... the 1-11 stretches as well.... but anyway.. great streak scorer, not great player..

vdfebduderocks wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:
About Spree, that is the problem with people, they do not these players actually played dictate what play they were but their achievements and personal STAT's dictate who they are remembered, ironically in a TEAM SPORT

Spree was a great defender
Spree had to always guard the better player/normally best player/ whether he is bigger/stronger/more athletic/quicker or faster
Always played out of position for the better of his team and had to carry the team
We were not a high scoring team, the game was different/valuing each possession vs today's game

He had a good post up game, facilitated an offense, was extremely clutch, and had to do a little bit of EVERYTHING
He was the leader of the team, not Houston
Was the leader on the floor/played his heart out while Houston got the max extension and got the credit

The NY team was not very talented and had many flaws
----------------------------------------------------------
LJ great leader, but 6/4 PF's without athleticism don't work well vs 7footer
We tried to get another 6/4 PF's in Clarence Weatherspoon to replace him

Unfortunately when Camby broke down/Ewing trade/ Kurt Thomas becomes our 2nd/3rd best player on the floor *when Houston was breaking down*, many of his his Knick year's were wasted
Then Mcdyess blows up his knee*2 PF's in Kurt Thomas in Mcdyess would have failed anyway*

On Melo
---------

everyone pretty much here hit it on the spot, the ones that actually participated

Melo does not have the qualities of a franchise leader/player/max player *not at what his extension in a Joe Johnson like contract* but is a pure scorer
Max player for a rookie contract vs a player like Melo's next extension is about 10m per year *in which could kill a franchise's flexiblity and ability to build a contending team
If you do not have many asset's, picks, and player's under contract with very low salaries to compensate for his overpaid salary, it would be very hard to build a team around

He is extremely confident/stubborn that must have it his way or the highway
A quality that allows him to play in NY with all the media and also is part of his weakness at the same time because of his inability to adapt for the better of the team
Take's many bad shot's and has the ability to make them, as this could is negative and positive

He is just too in to himself/need's a coach/teamates to stroke his ego
He need's to be credited and point out a "HOCKEY ASSIST" while it has been called "GOOD BALL MOVEMENT" anywhere else in the league

Does not stay in shape/often need's to be reminded how hard he must stay in shape to get the best best production out of him

His mental approach to the game is "how can I score more points to open the court up for my team"
While Lebron/Durant actually look to see how the opponent's DEFENSE is playing them, and see's how they can attack the DEFENSE, to get the consistently shot %/attempt

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

I wish I could sig this whole post.. you hit the nail on the head.. I remember the day we got sprewell and for me, I had to accept that we were losing a fan favorite in starks in bringing in a guy with some baggage.. real baggage.. the turning point for me, is when spree came off the bench.. didn't really complain and played his arse off... then when the team needed him to play PG, he did so, although he only had a right hand at the time.... didn't complain.. Just played... watching him, houston and camby was fun... really fun, and what I loved about sprewell is that he really valued the defensive end as much as the offensive side of the ball.... he was a well rounded player and for a short time, a real leader of the knicks..

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

that is such a great point, I don't think anyone doubts he is a great scorer.. for me, He is more of a great streak scorer.. I mean, no one looks at lebron as a great scorer, yet he came into the league at the same time carmelo did, and he is 3000+ points ahead of him.... some perspective here.. carmelo is a great STREAK scorer and that is fine... for those who enjoy scoring in bunches.. but there is a downside... the 1-11 stretches as well.... but anyway.. great streak scorer, not great player..

I remember when Sprewell was traded here too, yet I was probably a little younger than the both of you.

First off, Sprewell complained about coming off the bench. He could have started on that team, but JVG refused. He made his complaints public a few times too. Granted this was all done pre-internet and twitter and whatnot, so it was difficult for us to actually remember it happening. Pull up some old NYTimes articles and you'll see it. Sprewell and JVG clashed about playing time, but at the time there were bigger issues inside the team, i.e. JVG and Camby & JVG vs. Grunfeld, the latter of which set the precedent for the archaic media policy we have now.

As I digress, lemme also remind you that Sprewell and JVG's legacy here was pretty much created and saved by the 99 playoffs. Had we missed the playoffs or gotten knocked out by Miami, JVG would be fired and Sprewell probably would have been gone the year after. Because Spree had that awesome playoff run, Grandmama Larry Johnson was on the major decline, and due to Ewing's injury. it put JVG in a bind to start him at SF. They had no choice at that time. I don't remember him playing PG too much during the lockout season, but I'll buy it if true.

Now if you wanna say Sprewell played his arse off for the team, I'll buy that... up until the 2000-2001 season. Some of his great effort started to fade away beginning that year. His shooting percentages were awful the next two seasons. He also got himself in a bunch of distractions during his time here too.

Sprewell was a very good all-around player. His off-the court antics and other things started to catch up to him. By the time his last season with us came through, his offense pretty much was jump shots and that's it. Shandon Anderson was a better slasher/dunker than Spree at that time and that says a lot. It's crazy to say he was the leader of the team though. The leader of the team doesn't have all these antics that he had. If anything, Herb Williams, Allan Houston, Charlie Ward, and others were leaders, not Spree.

Now back to Melo, I don't get this whole notion of a "streak scorer." Melo's a scorer just as much as Durant's a scorer and Kobe's a scorer and Lebron's a scorer. Right now, I'd put Melo behind KD and maybe Kobe as scorers. KD can just shoot from anywhere, Kobe has that black mamba in him, and Melo can also shoot from anywhere. LeBron's a beast and basically scores because he creates so many easy opportunities for him. From a scoring/shooting perspective, his midrange/3-point game doesn't compare to the others. They don't score in bunches. Melo scores throughout the entire game. And the 1-11 stretches can happen to any one of these guys. You just don't hear about it often because they're not in the NY market. So that sentence makes no sense.

So if you'd call Melo a great scorer and not great player, that's fine. But Melo now was better than Sprewell ever was as a player. And that cannot be argued.

PRO BASKETBALL; Van Gundy and Sprewell on Different Pages
By SELENA ROBERTS
Published: March 28, 1999

Coach Jeff Van Gundy supported the risk the Knicks took in acquiring Latrell Sprewell after his league suspension for choking his previous coach, Golden State's P. J. Carlesimo. But now a slight fissure is starting to show in the relationship between Van Gundy and the three-time All-Star guard.

As Sprewell continued to make comments over the last two days that indicated his displeasure with being a sixth man and his reluctance to change his playing style to suit the Knicks, Van Gundy took him aside after practice for about 15 minutes today.

Van Gundy did not reveal the nature of the meeting, and Sprewell declined two opportunities to address the situation. But Van Gundy did show some dismay over Sprewell's opinions. On Friday, Sprewell said he would enjoy playing in an up-tempo, less structured system.

''At this point in my career, I'm not going to change,'' Sprewell said that night before he helped the Knicks end their three-game losing streak with a victory against the Phoenix Suns. Sprewell also reiterated that he ''doesn't particularly care for coming off the bench.''

Van Gundy, who doggedly promotes unselfishness and sacrifice within the team, has not been happy about Sprewell's remarks.

''If I had my druthers, would I have him say: 'The Knicks brought me here. They have a lot of faith in me, and I'll do whatever they want to help us win'? Yes, that's what I'd rather hear him say,'' Van Gundy said after the Knicks practiced at U.C.L.A. today in preparation for their game against the Lakers on Sunday. ''And not just say it, but believe it in his heart. But this is the N.B.A. So I'm not sure that's necessarily going to happen or is realistic.''

Sprewell has played his way. There have been times when his teammates have rolled their eyes and scowled as he dribbled recklessly down the court and took quick jumpers in transition, but most have remained supportive. And Van Gundy has tried to understand Sprewell's position while urging him to trust his teammates more and take smarter shots.

''I think with any player what I like to do is talk to them myself and see where they're at,'' Van Gundy said. ''I let them know what I think and listen to what they have to say. Hopefully, we're going the same way philosophically.''

Sprewell had philosophical differences with Carlesimo at Golden State. While the issues between Van Gundy and Sprewell are mild in comparison, there is a sense that Sprewell should embrace his role after being out of the league for 14 months. Other players, with far less baggage, have sacrificed their egos for the team.

''Chris Dudley wants to play more,'' Van Gundy said. ''He doesn't like to sit. Is he happy? Absolutely not. Marcus Camby, same way. They've been asked to sacrifice more than any other guys by far. Sometimes, just in general, what you believe sacrifice is and what true sacrifice is, is totally different. I'm not speaking abut Latrell, but in general terms.''

The meeting between Van Gundy and Sprewell came on the heels of the Knicks' first victory in four games. And it was a victory that Sprewell spearheaded. He did put the brakes on his full-throttle style on occasion and focused on either taking the ball to the basket -- which helped him get to the free-throw line 10 times, for 10 points -- or finding a teammate.

vdfebduderocks wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:
About Spree, that is the problem with people, they do not these players actually played dictate what play they were but their achievements and personal STAT's dictate who they are remembered, ironically in a TEAM SPORT

Spree was a great defender
Spree had to always guard the better player/normally best player/ whether he is bigger/stronger/more athletic/quicker or faster
Always played out of position for the better of his team and had to carry the team
We were not a high scoring team, the game was different/valuing each possession vs today's game

He had a good post up game, facilitated an offense, was extremely clutch, and had to do a little bit of EVERYTHING
He was the leader of the team, not Houston
Was the leader on the floor/played his heart out while Houston got the max extension and got the credit

The NY team was not very talented and had many flaws
----------------------------------------------------------
LJ great leader, but 6/4 PF's without athleticism don't work well vs 7footer
We tried to get another 6/4 PF's in Clarence Weatherspoon to replace him

Unfortunately when Camby broke down/Ewing trade/ Kurt Thomas becomes our 2nd/3rd best player on the floor *when Houston was breaking down*, many of his his Knick year's were wasted
Then Mcdyess blows up his knee*2 PF's in Kurt Thomas in Mcdyess would have failed anyway*

On Melo
---------

everyone pretty much here hit it on the spot, the ones that actually participated

Melo does not have the qualities of a franchise leader/player/max player *not at what his extension in a Joe Johnson like contract* but is a pure scorer
Max player for a rookie contract vs a player like Melo's next extension is about 10m per year *in which could kill a franchise's flexiblity and ability to build a contending team
If you do not have many asset's, picks, and player's under contract with very low salaries to compensate for his overpaid salary, it would be very hard to build a team around

He is extremely confident/stubborn that must have it his way or the highway
A quality that allows him to play in NY with all the media and also is part of his weakness at the same time because of his inability to adapt for the better of the team
Take's many bad shot's and has the ability to make them, as this could is negative and positive

He is just too in to himself/need's a coach/teamates to stroke his ego
He need's to be credited and point out a "HOCKEY ASSIST" while it has been called "GOOD BALL MOVEMENT" anywhere else in the league

Does not stay in shape/often need's to be reminded how hard he must stay in shape to get the best best production out of him

His mental approach to the game is "how can I score more points to open the court up for my team"
While Lebron/Durant actually look to see how the opponent's DEFENSE is playing them, and see's how they can attack the DEFENSE, to get the consistently shot %/attempt

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

I wish I could sig this whole post.. you hit the nail on the head.. I remember the day we got sprewell and for me, I had to accept that we were losing a fan favorite in starks in bringing in a guy with some baggage.. real baggage.. the turning point for me, is when spree came off the bench.. didn't really complain and played his arse off... then when the team needed him to play PG, he did so, although he only had a right hand at the time.... didn't complain.. Just played... watching him, houston and camby was fun... really fun, and what I loved about sprewell is that he really valued the defensive end as much as the offensive side of the ball.... he was a well rounded player and for a short time, a real leader of the knicks..

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

that is such a great point, I don't think anyone doubts he is a great scorer.. for me, He is more of a great streak scorer.. I mean, no one looks at lebron as a great scorer, yet he came into the league at the same time carmelo did, and he is 3000+ points ahead of him.... some perspective here.. carmelo is a great STREAK scorer and that is fine... for those who enjoy scoring in bunches.. but there is a downside... the 1-11 stretches as well.... but anyway.. great streak scorer, not great player..

I remember when Sprewell was traded here too, yet I was probably a little younger than the both of you.

First off, Sprewell complained about coming off the bench. He could have started on that team, but JVG refused. He made his complaints public a few times too. Granted this was all done pre-internet and twitter and whatnot, so it was difficult for us to actually remember it happening. Pull up some old NYTimes articles and you'll see it. Sprewell and JVG clashed about playing time, but at the time there were bigger issues inside the team, i.e. JVG and Camby & JVG vs. Grunfeld, the latter of which set the precedent for the archaic media policy we have now.

As I digress, lemme also remind you that Sprewell and JVG's legacy here was pretty much created and saved by the 99 playoffs. Had we missed the playoffs or gotten knocked out by Miami, JVG would be fired and Sprewell probably would have been gone the year after. Because Spree had that awesome playoff run, Grandmama Larry Johnson was on the major decline, and due to Ewing's injury. it put JVG in a bind to start him at SF. They had no choice at that time. I don't remember him playing PG too much during the lockout season, but I'll buy it if true.

Now if you wanna say Sprewell played his arse off for the team, I'll buy that... up until the 2000-2001 season. Some of his great effort started to fade away beginning that year. His shooting percentages were awful the next two seasons. He also got himself in a bunch of distractions during his time here too.

Sprewell was a very good all-around player. His off-the court antics and other things started to catch up to him. By the time his last season with us came through, his offense pretty much was jump shots and that's it. Shandon Anderson was a better slasher/dunker than Spree at that time and that says a lot. It's crazy to say he was the leader of the team though. The leader of the team doesn't have all these antics that he had. If anything, Herb Williams, Allan Houston, Charlie Ward, and others were leaders, not Spree.

Now back to Melo, I don't get this whole notion of a "streak scorer." Melo's a scorer just as much as Durant's a scorer and Kobe's a scorer and Lebron's a scorer. Right now, I'd put Melo behind KD and maybe Kobe as scorers. KD can just shoot from anywhere, Kobe has that black mamba in him, and Melo can also shoot from anywhere. LeBron's a beast and basically scores because he creates so many easy opportunities for him. From a scoring/shooting perspective, his midrange/3-point game doesn't compare to the others. They don't score in bunches. Melo scores throughout the entire game. And the 1-11 stretches can happen to any one of these guys. You just don't hear about it often because they're not in the NY market. So that sentence makes no sense.

So if you'd call Melo a great scorer and not great player, that's fine. But Melo now was better than Sprewell ever was as a player. And that cannot be argued.

I remember it well, and spree wanted to start, and the knicks wanted him to work his way into shape.. in the end, he and jvg made it work, which is why spree was running point.... He didn't rock the boat, didn't sabotage the team.....

Now back to Melo, I don't get this whole notion of a "streak scorer." Melo's a scorer just as much as Durant's a scorer and Kobe's a scorer and Lebron's a scorer. Right now, I'd put Melo behind KD and maybe Kobe as scorers. KD can just shoot from anywhere, Kobe has that black mamba in him, and Melo can also shoot from anywhere.

well if you look at this objectively shouldn't you also put him behind lebron?

And the 1-11 stretches can happen to any one of these guys. You just don't hear about it often because they're not in the NY market. So that sentence makes no sense.

it can, but it doesn't happen to those guys often, not as often as it has happened to a streak scorer like carmelo.... and we don't hear about it, because it rarely happens... believe me, this has nothing to do with the market they are in.. if lebron shoots 1-11 sports center will let us know.. I mean really dude?

knickscity wrote:

vdfebduderocks wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:
About Spree, that is the problem with people, they do not these players actually played dictate what play they were but their achievements and personal STAT's dictate who they are remembered, ironically in a TEAM SPORT

Spree was a great defender
Spree had to always guard the better player/normally best player/ whether he is bigger/stronger/more athletic/quicker or faster
Always played out of position for the better of his team and had to carry the team
We were not a high scoring team, the game was different/valuing each possession vs today's game

He had a good post up game, facilitated an offense, was extremely clutch, and had to do a little bit of EVERYTHING
He was the leader of the team, not Houston
Was the leader on the floor/played his heart out while Houston got the max extension and got the credit

The NY team was not very talented and had many flaws
----------------------------------------------------------
LJ great leader, but 6/4 PF's without athleticism don't work well vs 7footer
We tried to get another 6/4 PF's in Clarence Weatherspoon to replace him

Unfortunately when Camby broke down/Ewing trade/ Kurt Thomas becomes our 2nd/3rd best player on the floor *when Houston was breaking down*, many of his his Knick year's were wasted
Then Mcdyess blows up his knee*2 PF's in Kurt Thomas in Mcdyess would have failed anyway*

On Melo
---------

everyone pretty much here hit it on the spot, the ones that actually participated

Melo does not have the qualities of a franchise leader/player/max player *not at what his extension in a Joe Johnson like contract* but is a pure scorer
Max player for a rookie contract vs a player like Melo's next extension is about 10m per year *in which could kill a franchise's flexiblity and ability to build a contending team
If you do not have many asset's, picks, and player's under contract with very low salaries to compensate for his overpaid salary, it would be very hard to build a team around

He is extremely confident/stubborn that must have it his way or the highway
A quality that allows him to play in NY with all the media and also is part of his weakness at the same time because of his inability to adapt for the better of the team
Take's many bad shot's and has the ability to make them, as this could is negative and positive

He is just too in to himself/need's a coach/teamates to stroke his ego
He need's to be credited and point out a "HOCKEY ASSIST" while it has been called "GOOD BALL MOVEMENT" anywhere else in the league

Does not stay in shape/often need's to be reminded how hard he must stay in shape to get the best best production out of him

His mental approach to the game is "how can I score more points to open the court up for my team"
While Lebron/Durant actually look to see how the opponent's DEFENSE is playing them, and see's how they can attack the DEFENSE, to get the consistently shot %/attempt

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

I wish I could sig this whole post.. you hit the nail on the head.. I remember the day we got sprewell and for me, I had to accept that we were losing a fan favorite in starks in bringing in a guy with some baggage.. real baggage.. the turning point for me, is when spree came off the bench.. didn't really complain and played his arse off... then when the team needed him to play PG, he did so, although he only had a right hand at the time.... didn't complain.. Just played... watching him, houston and camby was fun... really fun, and what I loved about sprewell is that he really valued the defensive end as much as the offensive side of the ball.... he was a well rounded player and for a short time, a real leader of the knicks..

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

that is such a great point, I don't think anyone doubts he is a great scorer.. for me, He is more of a great streak scorer.. I mean, no one looks at lebron as a great scorer, yet he came into the league at the same time carmelo did, and he is 3000+ points ahead of him.... some perspective here.. carmelo is a great STREAK scorer and that is fine... for those who enjoy scoring in bunches.. but there is a downside... the 1-11 stretches as well.... but anyway.. great streak scorer, not great player..

I remember when Sprewell was traded here too, yet I was probably a little younger than the both of you.

First off, Sprewell complained about coming off the bench. He could have started on that team, but JVG refused. He made his complaints public a few times too. Granted this was all done pre-internet and twitter and whatnot, so it was difficult for us to actually remember it happening. Pull up some old NYTimes articles and you'll see it. Sprewell and JVG clashed about playing time, but at the time there were bigger issues inside the team, i.e. JVG and Camby & JVG vs. Grunfeld, the latter of which set the precedent for the archaic media policy we have now.

As I digress, lemme also remind you that Sprewell and JVG's legacy here was pretty much created and saved by the 99 playoffs. Had we missed the playoffs or gotten knocked out by Miami, JVG would be fired and Sprewell probably would have been gone the year after. Because Spree had that awesome playoff run, Grandmama Larry Johnson was on the major decline, and due to Ewing's injury. it put JVG in a bind to start him at SF. They had no choice at that time. I don't remember him playing PG too much during the lockout season, but I'll buy it if true.

Now if you wanna say Sprewell played his arse off for the team, I'll buy that... up until the 2000-2001 season. Some of his great effort started to fade away beginning that year. His shooting percentages were awful the next two seasons. He also got himself in a bunch of distractions during his time here too.

Sprewell was a very good all-around player. His off-the court antics and other things started to catch up to him. By the time his last season with us came through, his offense pretty much was jump shots and that's it. Shandon Anderson was a better slasher/dunker than Spree at that time and that says a lot. It's crazy to say he was the leader of the team though. The leader of the team doesn't have all these antics that he had. If anything, Herb Williams, Allan Houston, Charlie Ward, and others were leaders, not Spree.

Now back to Melo, I don't get this whole notion of a "streak scorer." Melo's a scorer just as much as Durant's a scorer and Kobe's a scorer and Lebron's a scorer. Right now, I'd put Melo behind KD and maybe Kobe as scorers. KD can just shoot from anywhere, Kobe has that black mamba in him, and Melo can also shoot from anywhere. LeBron's a beast and basically scores because he creates so many easy opportunities for him. From a scoring/shooting perspective, his midrange/3-point game doesn't compare to the others. They don't score in bunches. Melo scores throughout the entire game. And the 1-11 stretches can happen to any one of these guys. You just don't hear about it often because they're not in the NY market. So that sentence makes no sense.

So if you'd call Melo a great scorer and not great player, that's fine. But Melo now was better than Sprewell ever was as a player. And that cannot be argued.

It's just typical thinking when you're trying to push an agenda, and since the thread has already been derailed, this is fair game now....

PRO BASKETBALL; Van Gundy and Sprewell on Different Pages
By SELENA ROBERTS
Published: March 28, 1999

Coach Jeff Van Gundy supported the risk the Knicks took in acquiring Latrell Sprewell after his league suspension for choking his previous coach, Golden State's P. J. Carlesimo. But now a slight fissure is starting to show in the relationship between Van Gundy and the three-time All-Star guard.

As Sprewell continued to make comments over the last two days that indicated his displeasure with being a sixth man and his reluctance to change his playing style to suit the Knicks, Van Gundy took him aside after practice for about 15 minutes today.

Van Gundy did not reveal the nature of the meeting, and Sprewell declined two opportunities to address the situation. But Van Gundy did show some dismay over Sprewell's opinions. On Friday, Sprewell said he would enjoy playing in an up-tempo, less structured system.

''At this point in my career, I'm not going to change,'' Sprewell said that night before he helped the Knicks end their three-game losing streak with a victory against the Phoenix Suns. Sprewell also reiterated that he ''doesn't particularly care for coming off the bench.''

Van Gundy, who doggedly promotes unselfishness and sacrifice within the team, has not been happy about Sprewell's remarks.

''If I had my druthers, would I have him say: 'The Knicks brought me here. They have a lot of faith in me, and I'll do whatever they want to help us win'? Yes, that's what I'd rather hear him say,'' Van Gundy said after the Knicks practiced at U.C.L.A. today in preparation for their game against the Lakers on Sunday. ''And not just say it, but believe it in his heart. But this is the N.B.A. So I'm not sure that's necessarily going to happen or is realistic.''

Sprewell has played his way. There have been times when his teammates have rolled their eyes and scowled as he dribbled recklessly down the court and took quick jumpers in transition, but most have remained supportive. And Van Gundy has tried to understand Sprewell's position while urging him to trust his teammates more and take smarter shots.

''I think with any player what I like to do is talk to them myself and see where they're at,'' Van Gundy said. ''I let them know what I think and listen to what they have to say. Hopefully, we're going the same way philosophically.''

Sprewell had philosophical differences with Carlesimo at Golden State. While the issues between Van Gundy and Sprewell are mild in comparison, there is a sense that Sprewell should embrace his role after being out of the league for 14 months. Other players, with far less baggage, have sacrificed their egos for the team.

''Chris Dudley wants to play more,'' Van Gundy said. ''He doesn't like to sit. Is he happy? Absolutely not. Marcus Camby, same way. They've been asked to sacrifice more than any other guys by far. Sometimes, just in general, what you believe sacrifice is and what true sacrifice is, is totally different. I'm not speaking abut Latrell, but in general terms.''

The meeting between Van Gundy and Sprewell came on the heels of the Knicks' first victory in four games. And it was a victory that Sprewell spearheaded. He did put the brakes on his full-throttle style on occasion and focused on either taking the ball to the basket -- which helped him get to the free-throw line 10 times, for 10 points -- or finding a teammate.

This tells us nothing... We all know spree didn't want to come off the bench.. the key was that he didn't sabotage the team.... He didn't hurt the team, he didn't let that get in the way of him being productive.. they went to the finals..

I can say the say thing about JR smith.. he wanted to start, but he didn't let that get in the way of how he played this year.. I am not a fan of his game, but JR has not let it get in the way of team chemistry... this is my point..

posting an article stating what I have already agreed to is pointless.. and trying to accuse me of an agenda is equally pointless because we are not arguing if he wanted to start or not...

vdfebduderocks wrote:

tkf wrote:

vdfebduderocks wrote:

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:
About Spree, that is the problem with people, they do not these players actually played dictate what play they were but their achievements and personal STAT's dictate who they are remembered, ironically in a TEAM SPORT

Spree was a great defender
Spree had to always guard the better player/normally best player/ whether he is bigger/stronger/more athletic/quicker or faster
Always played out of position for the better of his team and had to carry the team
We were not a high scoring team, the game was different/valuing each possession vs today's game

He had a good post up game, facilitated an offense, was extremely clutch, and had to do a little bit of EVERYTHING
He was the leader of the team, not Houston
Was the leader on the floor/played his heart out while Houston got the max extension and got the credit

The NY team was not very talented and had many flaws
----------------------------------------------------------
LJ great leader, but 6/4 PF's without athleticism don't work well vs 7footer
We tried to get another 6/4 PF's in Clarence Weatherspoon to replace him

Unfortunately when Camby broke down/Ewing trade/ Kurt Thomas becomes our 2nd/3rd best player on the floor *when Houston was breaking down*, many of his his Knick year's were wasted
Then Mcdyess blows up his knee*2 PF's in Kurt Thomas in Mcdyess would have failed anyway*

On Melo
---------

everyone pretty much here hit it on the spot, the ones that actually participated

Melo does not have the qualities of a franchise leader/player/max player *not at what his extension in a Joe Johnson like contract* but is a pure scorer
Max player for a rookie contract vs a player like Melo's next extension is about 10m per year *in which could kill a franchise's flexiblity and ability to build a contending team
If you do not have many asset's, picks, and player's under contract with very low salaries to compensate for his overpaid salary, it would be very hard to build a team around

He is extremely confident/stubborn that must have it his way or the highway
A quality that allows him to play in NY with all the media and also is part of his weakness at the same time because of his inability to adapt for the better of the team
Take's many bad shot's and has the ability to make them, as this could is negative and positive

He is just too in to himself/need's a coach/teamates to stroke his ego
He need's to be credited and point out a "HOCKEY ASSIST" while it has been called "GOOD BALL MOVEMENT" anywhere else in the league

Does not stay in shape/often need's to be reminded how hard he must stay in shape to get the best best production out of him

His mental approach to the game is "how can I score more points to open the court up for my team"
While Lebron/Durant actually look to see how the opponent's DEFENSE is playing them, and see's how they can attack the DEFENSE, to get the consistently shot %/attempt

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

I wish I could sig this whole post.. you hit the nail on the head.. I remember the day we got sprewell and for me, I had to accept that we were losing a fan favorite in starks in bringing in a guy with some baggage.. real baggage.. the turning point for me, is when spree came off the bench.. didn't really complain and played his arse off... then when the team needed him to play PG, he did so, although he only had a right hand at the time.... didn't complain.. Just played... watching him, houston and camby was fun... really fun, and what I loved about sprewell is that he really valued the defensive end as much as the offensive side of the ball.... he was a well rounded player and for a short time, a real leader of the knicks..

For the one's that bash this thread, they realize that he has many flaw's and his negatives are not the characteristic's of a leader/max player
Nothing is wrong with that, but he is a great SCORER, not a great basketball player

that is such a great point, I don't think anyone doubts he is a great scorer.. for me, He is more of a great streak scorer.. I mean, no one looks at lebron as a great scorer, yet he came into the league at the same time carmelo did, and he is 3000+ points ahead of him.... some perspective here.. carmelo is a great STREAK scorer and that is fine... for those who enjoy scoring in bunches.. but there is a downside... the 1-11 stretches as well.... but anyway.. great streak scorer, not great player..

I remember when Sprewell was traded here too, yet I was probably a little younger than the both of you.

First off, Sprewell complained about coming off the bench. He could have started on that team, but JVG refused. He made his complaints public a few times too. Granted this was all done pre-internet and twitter and whatnot, so it was difficult for us to actually remember it happening. Pull up some old NYTimes articles and you'll see it. Sprewell and JVG clashed about playing time, but at the time there were bigger issues inside the team, i.e. JVG and Camby & JVG vs. Grunfeld, the latter of which set the precedent for the archaic media policy we have now.

As I digress, lemme also remind you that Sprewell and JVG's legacy here was pretty much created and saved by the 99 playoffs. Had we missed the playoffs or gotten knocked out by Miami, JVG would be fired and Sprewell probably would have been gone the year after. Because Spree had that awesome playoff run, Grandmama Larry Johnson was on the major decline, and due to Ewing's injury. it put JVG in a bind to start him at SF. They had no choice at that time. I don't remember him playing PG too much during the lockout season, but I'll buy it if true.

Now if you wanna say Sprewell played his arse off for the team, I'll buy that... up until the 2000-2001 season. Some of his great effort started to fade away beginning that year. His shooting percentages were awful the next two seasons. He also got himself in a bunch of distractions during his time here too.

Sprewell was a very good all-around player. His off-the court antics and other things started to catch up to him. By the time his last season with us came through, his offense pretty much was jump shots and that's it. Shandon Anderson was a better slasher/dunker than Spree at that time and that says a lot. It's crazy to say he was the leader of the team though. The leader of the team doesn't have all these antics that he had. If anything, Herb Williams, Allan Houston, Charlie Ward, and others were leaders, not Spree.

Now back to Melo, I don't get this whole notion of a "streak scorer." Melo's a scorer just as much as Durant's a scorer and Kobe's a scorer and Lebron's a scorer. Right now, I'd put Melo behind KD and maybe Kobe as scorers. KD can just shoot from anywhere, Kobe has that black mamba in him, and Melo can also shoot from anywhere. LeBron's a beast and basically scores because he creates so many easy opportunities for him. From a scoring/shooting perspective, his midrange/3-point game doesn't compare to the others. They don't score in bunches. Melo scores throughout the entire game. And the 1-11 stretches can happen to any one of these guys. You just don't hear about it often because they're not in the NY market. So that sentence makes no sense.

So if you'd call Melo a great scorer and not great player, that's fine. But Melo now was better than Sprewell ever was as a player. And that cannot be argued.

I remember it well, and spree wanted to start, and the knicks wanted him to work his way into shape.. in the end, he and jvg made it work, which is why spree was running point.... He didn't rock the boat, didn't sabotage the team.....

JVG was forced to start Spree, he had no choice. Spree was basically the point forward for most of his time here only because Charlie Ward/Howard Eisley sucked as PGs and Chris Childs/Mark Jackson were on their decline while here.

LOL at "didn't rock the boat." It's ironic because of the hand injury that occurred on his yacht. If we're gonna judge Spree, we have to judge him from his Warriors and Timberwolves days as well. And it's naive to think he didn't sabotage the Warriors when he choked his coach. Had the Knicks not gotten to the finals, he probably would have sabotaged this team. Luckily, winning and the presence of Ewing kinda calmed everything down. He hurt our team when he was out with that hand injury. Had he been in the lineup, we could have won some of those games. In the weak eastern conference, we may have been able to sneak into the 8th spot.

I am judging spree as a knick.. simply because someone said carmelo was the best KNICK since Ewing... i dissagreed.. so again, why talk about his warrior days, which I would like to remind you were not bad at all.. but if you want to bring up his warrior days.... spree was first team all NBA one of those years in GS..something carmelo has never accomplished.. In Denver or NY..

but hey, this is getting way off topic... I liked spree better.. I stated why... I am not going to defend any of his actions in GS as I didn't approve of him choking a coach.. as a player in NY, he ranks far ahead of melo as far as I am concerned.... if you think otherwise, You have that right..

tkf wrote:
I am judging spree as a knick.. simply because someone said carmelo was the best KNICK since Ewing... i dissagreed.. so again, why talk about his warrior days, which I would like to remind you were not bad at all.. but if you want to bring up his warrior days.... spree was first team all NBA one of those years in GS..something carmelo has never accomplished .. In Denver or NY..

Alright I'm ending this thread here.... this might be the stupidest thing I've ever read ever.

The only reason he won this award was because Jordan "retired" that year and there weren't many elite SGs that year. Jeez, the only guys I can think of are Mitch Richmond and Mark Price... BTW, Spree that year averaged 21PPG, 5RBS, 5ASTS, 2 SPG at 43 minutes per game. Nothing special here. Reggie Miller didn't even make any of the teams.

Speaking of Reggie, do you think Reggie's one of the best Pacers ever/elite players? I'd think so too... well guess what, he didn't make the ALL NBA First Team ever.... you know why? A guy named Michael Jordan was ahead of him. But that doesn't discount Reggie's skills at any imagination. Melo didn't make the All-NBA 1st teams b/c he's not better than LeBron. That doesn't mean he's not a great player, he's just not better than LeBron and thus can't make 1st team ALL NBA unless he plays PF full time. With LeBron and Durant around, it's tough for Melo to make 1st team, but that shouldn't discount his talents ever.

End of story.