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Jeremy Lin= future l star
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CashMoney
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12/28/2012  9:05 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nycisgreat wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
nycisgreat wrote:Some people love for Lin seem to be driving them mad. Lmao. Lin is never coming back. You would think the Knicks being in first place would've stopped the crying for Lin, but I see that is not the case. Felton numbers are better then Lin thus far in the season. And where in first place in our division. I don't want to hear about only Lin's last four games. I am happy with what we have. I would've never thought what we would be coasting in first place in our division like this if at the beginning of the season.

You are happy with Felton?

Lins numbers are better than Feltons.

Lmao, are you joking right now? Lin number are not better than felton. Felton Score more, and they are comparable in every stat category.


Felton takes more shots but is a worse scorer. Part of the problem is that Felton takes so many shots despite being one of the most inefficient scorers in the league. Here is the comparison:
Scoring efficiency: Advantage Lin
Rbs: Lin
Stls: Lin
Blks: Lin
Assist rate: Lin
TO rate: Felton

Lin's killing Felton right now and for the following reasons, the gap is likely to only get bigger over time: a) Lin is young and most players improve through their mid 20s; b) although it's only a 91 game sample, he's currently below his career #s; c) he appears to have finally gotten healthy and/or comfortable with his role in Houston.

Yeah, killing him everywhere except for the win column.

Lin's 6.4 assists to Feltons 6.3 per game....WOW.

Lin is better at stealing the ball and getting boards but there pretty close everywhere else which is what the Knicks were thinking when they passed on Lin....they could get similar production at less than half the cost.

Long term Lin will probably be the better player of the two but for right now I don't see how anyone can argue that the Knicks screwed up. 20-8 and on our way to a possible #1 seed.

I said assist rate (7.0 vs. 6.7 per 36 min). Wins are a good to evaluate teams but a bad way to evaluate individual players because win total is confounded with teammate quality. Felton is on the most veteran team in the league and one of the highest paid teams, whereas Lin is on the youngest and the lowest paid team in the league. It would be astonishing if they had the better record. (And it is astonishing that they smacked us twice.)

Like I said statistically comparable but at less than half the cost. His 1 assist on Wednesday probably has him about even with Ray Ray per 36.

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Bonn1997
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12/28/2012  9:09 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/28/2012  9:09 AM
I'd rather have $25 mil invested in Lin than $17 mil in Felton. Lin is still in his first 100 games as an NBA PG - there's gonna be ups and downs. Felton has lots of awful downs too - I guess his excuse is that he's still in his first 600 games as an NBA PG.
CashMoney
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12/28/2012  9:19 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather have $25 mil invested in Lin than $17 mil in Felton. Lin is still in his first 100 games as an NBA PG - there's gonna be ups and downs. Felton has lots of awful downs too - I guess his excuse is that he's still in his first 600 games as an NBA PG.

Personally I like and prefer the investment in Ray and Kidd. Ray as a Knick has played better than his career numbers dictate and thats all that matters to me. Don't care about what he did in Charlotte, Portland or Denver.

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Bonn1997
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12/28/2012  9:23 AM
Let's leave Kidd out of the discussion. The Knicks could have had both him and Lin.
earthmansurfer
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12/28/2012  9:51 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather have $25 mil invested in Lin than $17 mil in Felton. Lin is still in his first 100 games as an NBA PG - there's gonna be ups and downs. Felton has lots of awful downs too - I guess his excuse is that he's still in his first 600 games as an NBA PG.

I noticed you posted this on another thread and it is worthy here. "Out of 130 qualified players, only 2 are getting fewer points per shot than Felton. "
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/count/121

In fairness, I don't think that Stats can give us the full story, both good or bad but they do tell us something. I don't think that the record of a team can overly tell us too much about one player. But the eye does tell us a lot. I just don't see how Felton has much on Lin (handle YES). I take the 24 year old kid who's bottom is basically Feltons top. Basically, that is what the Stats are saying as Lin is just coming on.

Basically, by the end of the year one, none or both of these camps - Pro Lin or Pro Felton - are going to have to shut up. I'll admit defeat or success when that time comes.

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CrushAlot
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12/28/2012  11:05 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I'd rather have $25 mil invested in Lin than $17 mil in Felton. Lin is still in his first 100 games as an NBA PG - there's gonna be ups and downs. Felton has lots of awful downs too - I guess his excuse is that he's still in his first 600 games as an NBA PG.
If Felton's contract was structured so that he received 15 mil in year 3 when the cba becomes extremely punitive and restrictive he wouldn't be a Knick.
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Bonn1997
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12/28/2012  11:17 AM
Overspending put the Knicks in a bad situation. They would have to have accepted one year of smaller profits or cleared salary. My guess is that in the three years here, Lin would bring in so much more revenues than Felton that it would make up for the higher salary that one year anyway.
earthmansurfer
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12/28/2012  3:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/28/2012  3:16 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Overspending put the Knicks in a bad situation. They would have to have accepted one year of smaller profits or cleared salary. My guess is that in the three years here, Lin would bring in so much more revenues than Felton that it would make up for the higher salary that one year anyway.

Forbes agrees with you but goes a bit beyond your estimate (from last years article):

Jeremy Lin will boost team revenue by $10-20 million above what it would have been this season without his emergence…with the exact amount depending upon whether the Knicks make the playoffs and whether they can steal a round if they get there.

Remember that the 4 major sources of revenue for pro sports organizations are ticket revenue, media revenue, facility revenue, and ancillary revenue associated with the team’s brand.

Taken from: http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2012/02/13/the-economics-of-jeremy-lin-could-translate-into-150-million-by-2012-13-season/

I truly think the decision not to bring Lin back had more to do with Dolan (and his view of this being Melo's team) than with money. Not to mention Dolan feeling slighted about the upped offer by Houston - if true.

Further information, and more blunder by Dolan:

Longer term, the Knicks could see the biggest return with respect to their various media contracts should Mr. Lin’s play and impact upon the team be sustained.

Forbes estimated that the Knicks team revenue (net of debt payments) for 2010-11 was $244 million…yielding a franchise value of $780 million.

If Jeremy Lin becomes a mainstay for the organization, then it would not be unrealistic to see net revenues reach the $275-300 million for the 2012-13 season (looking one year ahead since apples-to-apples comparisons can’t be made with the current shortened lockout season).

Basically, Lin would have paid for himself and then some...

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
CrushAlot
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12/28/2012  5:18 PM
earthmansurfer wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Overspending put the Knicks in a bad situation. They would have to have accepted one year of smaller profits or cleared salary. My guess is that in the three years here, Lin would bring in so much more revenues than Felton that it would make up for the higher salary that one year anyway.

Forbes agrees with you but goes a bit beyond your estimate (from last years article):

Jeremy Lin will boost team revenue by $10-20 million above what it would have been this season without his emergence…with the exact amount depending upon whether the Knicks make the playoffs and whether they can steal a round if they get there.

Remember that the 4 major sources of revenue for pro sports organizations are ticket revenue, media revenue, facility revenue, and ancillary revenue associated with the team’s brand.

Taken from: http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2012/02/13/the-economics-of-jeremy-lin-could-translate-into-150-million-by-2012-13-season/

I truly think the decision not to bring Lin back had more to do with Dolan (and his view of this being Melo's team) than with money. Not to mention Dolan feeling slighted about the upped offer by Houston - if true.

Further information, and more blunder by Dolan:

Longer term, the Knicks could see the biggest return with respect to their various media contracts should Mr. Lin’s play and impact upon the team be sustained.

Forbes estimated that the Knicks team revenue (net of debt payments) for 2010-11 was $244 million…yielding a franchise value of $780 million.

If Jeremy Lin becomes a mainstay for the organization, then it would not be unrealistic to see net revenues reach the $275-300 million for the 2012-13 season (looking one year ahead since apples-to-apples comparisons can’t be made with the current shortened lockout season).

Basically, Lin would have paid for himself and then some...

I don't know if the Forbes information is accurate. It might be. I am not sure if they figured in the new revenue sharing between teams and the new cba. Revenue sharing went from 60 mil to 150 mil.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/20/owners-come-to-agreement-on-new-revenue-sharing-plan/
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Bonn1997
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12/28/2012  5:40 PM
That extra $90 mil is split among the 30 teams (albeit not evenly), meaning it would cost the Knicks just a few mil, right?
CrushAlot
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12/28/2012  5:48 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:That extra $90 mil is split among the 30 teams (albeit not evenly), meaning it would cost the Knicks just a few mil, right?
I am not sure. I haven't been able to find a breakdown of how the revenue sharing works exactly. What you are suggesting makes sense.
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CashMoney
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12/28/2012  6:59 PM
Lin a good player but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a bit disturbed of the pining for Lin at 21-8.

The Knicks are trying to win now and I personally don't believe the kid is ready for a tough playoff battle. It was a great sports story and I wish him well in Houston but he's gone and I'm more than ok with it.

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12/28/2012  8:16 PM
CashMoney wrote:Lin a good player but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a bit disturbed of the pining for Lin at 21-8.

The Knicks are trying to win now and I personally don't believe the kid is ready for a tough playoff battle. It was a great sports story and I wish him well in Houston but he's gone and I'm more than ok with it.

It really went viral after Felton got hurt and his play declined. It's kind of bizarre, but pretty predictable, sadly.

Bonn1997
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12/28/2012  8:47 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/28/2012  8:48 PM
CashMoney wrote:Lin a good player but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a bit disturbed of the pining for Lin at 21-8.

The Knicks are trying to win now and I personally don't believe the kid is ready for a tough playoff battle. It was a great sports story and I wish him well in Houston but he's gone and I'm more than ok with it.


Maybe many people have higher hopes for the team than you appear to. The issue to me isn't how wonderful it is to be 21-8 but rather what weapons would give us the best chance to win a championship.
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12/29/2012  8:02 AM
CashMoney wrote:Lin a good player but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a bit disturbed of the pining for Lin at 21-8.

The Knicks are trying to win now and I personally don't believe the kid is ready for a tough playoff battle. It was a great sports story and I wish him well in Houston but he's gone and I'm more than ok with it.

I am not looking so much at the record now (though that is an indicator of course) but at how we will be in the playoffs. We clearly have a great team. But what is really disturbing to me is that letting Lin go made no sense at a few levels: 1 - Money wise as it is clearly debatable that he would pay for his own contract 2 - skill wise, having guys like him in the playoffs are necessary (He can see the floor well and attack when need be. Great at ends of games, 3 - fan wise - he was loved by the city (It was like Dolan said F you all, money suddenly matters - but see pt.1) and 4th - you got to stock up on talent when you are maxed out and the championship is your goal, no two ways about that and our owner is a Billionaire

I am on board with this team but know the cards have to fall perfectly for us to win it all this or next year. I have faith but the excuses have been piling up for the last 2 years now and we just let a potential all star walk for nothing. That don't sit well with many, no matter if you are a "die hard" Knicks fan or not. And now seeing how that team that Houston has is doing something when most said it wouldn't, just feels bad inside. Yeah, I know, "But they didn't have Harden" yet they had the talent to trade for him. But but but... It just looks like where Lin goes good things happen and that goes back a ways.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
CashMoney
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12/29/2012  10:25 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
CashMoney wrote:Lin a good player but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a bit disturbed of the pining for Lin at 21-8.

The Knicks are trying to win now and I personally don't believe the kid is ready for a tough playoff battle. It was a great sports story and I wish him well in Houston but he's gone and I'm more than ok with it.


Maybe many people have higher hopes for the team than you appear to. The issue to me isn't how wonderful it is to be 21-8 but rather what weapons would give us the best chance to win a championship.

My hope is a championship and I believe this team has enough talent to win it all. IMHO having Lin over Felton does not makes us more likely to win it all. This team is as deep as they come. No Sheed, No Melo, No STAT, No Felton, No Shump and we lose a game by 1 point after being down 27 due to a couple of bad plays down the stretch.

We have the weapons we need but the bottom line is going to be how healthy we are come playoff time.

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CashMoney
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12/29/2012  10:39 AM
earthmansurfer wrote:
CashMoney wrote:Lin a good player but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a bit disturbed of the pining for Lin at 21-8.

The Knicks are trying to win now and I personally don't believe the kid is ready for a tough playoff battle. It was a great sports story and I wish him well in Houston but he's gone and I'm more than ok with it.

I am not looking so much at the record now (though that is an indicator of course) but at how we will be in the playoffs. We clearly have a great team. But what is really disturbing to me is that letting Lin go made no sense at a few levels: 1 - Money wise as it is clearly debatable that he would pay for his own contract 2 - skill wise, having guys like him in the playoffs are necessary (He can see the floor well and attack when need be. Great at ends of games, 3 - fan wise - he was loved by the city (It was like Dolan said F you all, money suddenly matters - but see pt.1) and 4th - you got to stock up on talent when you are maxed out and the championship is your goal, no two ways about that and our owner is a Billionaire

I am on board with this team but know the cards have to fall perfectly for us to win it all this or next year. I have faith but the excuses have been piling up for the last 2 years now and we just let a potential all star walk for nothing. That don't sit well with many, no matter if you are a "die hard" Knicks fan or not. And now seeing how that team that Houston has is doing something when most said it wouldn't, just feels bad inside. Yeah, I know, "But they didn't have Harden" yet they had the talent to trade for him. But but but... It just looks like where Lin goes good things happen and that goes back a ways.

1. The point is not that Lin would pay for his own contract it's how much above and beyond his contract he would make for the team. 2. We don't know how Lin will perform in the playoffs. 3. Yeah, we the fans wanted Lin but since when do owners of any sports orgainization give a rats ass about what we as fans want? 4. We did a good job of stocking up on talent.

At the end of the day I think the split is working out well for both parties. The Knicks are loaded and are legit. Lin gets the opportunity to develop his game without the Linsane pressure of NY. He may be a future all star and may even make the all star team due to his populairty but he is not playing like an all star this season. He's had some great game, he's had some terrible games but at the end of the day he's at 12ppg, 6 AST.

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earthmansurfer
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12/29/2012  6:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2012  6:35 PM
CM - 1. Why? Isn't paying for a contract when that is the issue, enough? One would think so. Anyway, it is the talent that is the first attraction to many of us. (To be fair, shouldn't we just deduct the cost of Felton's contract from Lin's contract and shoot for that amount as well as the luxury tax amount (which we are already over)? We should really treat both situations similarly at a minimum. Many of us think Lin has the higher upside so we should also give him the benefit of the doubt to a point.)
2. We don't know how anyone will perform in the playoffs. But if the regular season is an indicator, and generally it is, he is a closer and see's the floor VERY WELL
3. True to a point. But isn't it usually about the money?
4. We did stock up on talent, but it is old talent mostly. And you can take Novak and Camby and Kidd and that is 30 million over 3 years. I'd rather have them all since it's about a championship.

We'll see. None of us really have the answers. Waiting for the playoffs.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
CrushAlot
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12/30/2012  7:03 PM
earthmansurfer wrote:CM - 1. Why? Isn't paying for a contract when that is the issue, enough? One would think so. Anyway, it is the talent that is the first attraction to many of us. (To be fair, shouldn't we just deduct the cost of Felton's contract from Lin's contract and shoot for that amount as well as the luxury tax amount (which we are already over)? We should really treat both situations similarly at a minimum. Many of us think Lin has the higher upside so we should also give him the benefit of the doubt to a point.)
2. We don't know how anyone will perform in the playoffs. But if the regular season is an indicator, and generally it is, he is a closer and see's the floor VERY WELL
3. True to a point. But isn't it usually about the money?
4. We did stock up on talent, but it is old talent mostly. And you can take Novak and Camby and Kidd and that is 30 million over 3 years. I'd rather have them all since it's about a championship.

We'll see. None of us really have the answers. Waiting for the playoffs.

YOu really need to focus in on year 3 of Lin's contract when he would be at 15 mil. That was the poison pill and that is why he isn't a Knick. Not sure how much Novak, Camby and Kidd make in year 3 but I would guess it would be around 10 million total. We know how valuable Kidd is. We saw the kind of impact Camby can have the other night against the Kings and Novak has a needed role on this team. Also, I believe year 3 of Camby's contract is a team option. His contract had to be 3 years so that a sign and trade could be done. In that case the cost against the cap drops to a little under 7 million. Also, I agree with Cash about Lin and his situation. The Knicks needed vets and Lin needed a chance to play and develop. He is in a good spot.

I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
Jeremy Lin= future l star

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