TeamBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:Berman is making an nice issue and we all went back to reread the quote.

Please, they guy was good friends with Shump and he said "obviously melo and amare".

I know many of you have problems with lin and look to discredit him to feel better and hope he falls on his face.

Bottom line we lost a game missing three starter form last years team. Melo is playing at MVP like status and without him we look bad. Makes one think what in the hell happened in Miami? Felton looked bad, Kidd was not great and Rockets tore knicks a new one.

Jeremey spoken, clear as the day..........

Why is it that when something negative is said about someone, there is always someone who lumps that person in with some hate group? Is it really that hard to believe that I may actually think Lin took a jab but at the same time have no problems with Jeremy? Do I have to either love and support everything he does or hate with him with a passion and have there be no in between?

Amen. The only guy in the NBA I truly want to fall on his face is D12, tbh. The stuff with the Magic and SVG left a horrible taste in my mouth. I'm also not a big fan of Dwayne Wade, but that's another issue. Otherwise, I just want the Knicks to beat the team in front of them and don't have personal vendettas against players, ex-Knicks included. But, I'm not going to wave pompoms for players simply b/c they are ex-Knicks; I like who I like. I like David Lee, who happens to be an ex-Knick. I love Kevin Durant & Russell Westbrook (even though he also drives me nuts). I enjoy DRose; I miss his presence in the NBA. I want to see more of Kyrie Irving. If the Knicks are not playing the Rockets, I rarely think about Jeremy Lin. Or Gallo. I spend even less time thinking about Chandler, Fields, Jeffries, and Mozgov. I think it's similar for a lot of folks. No Lin voodoo dolls in backrooms, no pitchforks.

NYDiva wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

Lin also took a subtle dig at Anthony when talking about the Knicks not being healthy.

“They’re not their full team and at the top of the list is Shump [Iman Shumpert],’’ Lin said. “He’s a difference-maker. And Carmelo and Amar’e [Stoudemire] obviously didn’t play.’’

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_suffer_fall_lin_garden_x0xxyt5INZrgPqheAxy2pI

Thoughts?

When I first read TKF's post, I just assumed Lin was talking about how they were able to bypass the Knicks' defense. Seeing it now, it does seem like a not so subtle dig at not only Melo but Amare as well. Kind of like a "Shumpert would have made all the difference for this team...oh yeah and Melo and Amare could have helped also".

Yeah, same here. I'm surprised by that. I can see him giving Shump props; I agree that he is a difference-maker, as I stated above. But it's as he was acting as if Melo & Amar'e were afterthoughts or something. Like "oh, yeah, the superstar and the 6-time All-Star could have helped, too."

This reminds me when Melo thought of Amar'e and Chandler as afterthoughts to begin the season as true Team Leaders

yea, good point.. Listen, lin may play the Naive role a bit here, but he is no fool, and the young fella knows the difference between leadership and lack thereof... i honestly think he doesn't respect amare, carmelo or chandler as leaders... last year, all of them had the chance to take on that role and and help our season even more.. all of them failed.. amare failed losing his cool, chandler seemed a bit two faced and 3G you know what I mean here, and melo was just a baby last year( and please I am not going to get into any silly melo debates people so I won't address this any further) plain and simple... so yea, I can see lin taking a dig at all of them, and justifiably so....

the fact that he refrenced a rookie as a difference maker, was no mistake...

And Lin was the guy saying he was 85%, yet refused to play in the playoffs. Perhaps those guys didn't respect that from him? This goes both ways. Amar'e for all his stupidity with the fire extinguisher, did suit up and play vs the Heat. Unlike Lin.

Frankly, if he didn't respect those guys as leaders on the team, it's for the better that he's in a different environment now. The Knicks don't seem to have any leadership issues without him. But I'm glad you can admit that it was a dig...because it sounds like it was to me.

it was a well deserved dig.. that is what I am admitting to..

NUPE wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

NUPE wrote:
I don't believe Felton is dumb. That is a pretty childish statement. Felton's TO are generally low. Felton generally makes smart plays. Felton's shooting is not great but Felton's primary role in the offense is not to shoot when we have a healthy team. What part of this simple statement don't you understand.

In a situation like today, who else was gonna take the shots. Brewer can't create. Chandler can't create. Kidd can't create. Novak can't create. Prig generally does not create. The only creators were JR, Copeland and Felton so they were the ones that were going to take the shots and dominate the ball. It's literally common sense.

There are a few Knicks that did not play great today but for some reason the focus is on Felton. LoL!

As for Lin. He is inferior to Felton across the board, stat wise. Lin has been a debacle and absolute disappointment. The fact that people are in this thread and pretending otherwise is ABSURD and reeks of bias.

Felton has a GREAT handle, but that is not synonymous with smarts. I wouldn't say Felton is dumb, but he sure ain't on the smart side. I guess average to below average smart wise. To win, it really helps to have a smart pg, like Kidd, Lin, etc. Felton does not take chances with bad passes though, he is great there also. He doesn't see the court anywhere near Lin though.

Lin has had a mostly bad year, by last years standards anyway. But he is a 24 year old, in his second year and putting up 11pts, 6assists, 4reb, 2stls and that is playing next to a ball dominant G in Harden. Lin's FG% is up to 41% after that horrid start - guess what, that is slightly above Feltons FG%. Lin is playing a lot better than some 2nd year pg's drafted in the first half of the draft around when he came out into the NBA (Fredette, etc.)

You are right, Felton is playing pretty good, but if anything happens to Melo or Stat in the playoffs and we need a new #1 or just #2 in general (not depending on Stat making his 3rd or 4th injury comeback in 2 or 3 seasons) we are in hot water. We can't overlook that and we saw it last night. The playoffs are a different animal - I do like our chances though. I think like many people here, we are just saying it was stupid to let a talent like Lin go for nothing. Lin is getting better and better as the season goes on, his health is almost back to where it needs to be. I just think we would be a better team with him on it - He can create...

When you watch Lin and Felton both play, don't make it into a stat argument (e.g. - There is no stat for court vision, will, etc.) - Lin still has "IT"...

You state Felton is playing pretty good. That is all I have stated. It's that simple. I am also not calling Felton a stud or great or claiming Felton will lead us to a title. The great thing is that Felton was brought here NOT to lead us to a title but to be a solid roll player.

If the top two players go down on any team during the playoffs then any team would be in trouble. This expectation that a roll player would morph into an all star pg is a bit much. I don't expect Felton to carry this team when Melo and Amar'e are out. He is not that type of player. What Felton is, is a solid pg that will run an offense and play defense and generally get the ball to players where they excel. That is what I expect of him.

I think we were fortunate to beat the Heat and lowly Cavs without Melo / Amar'e. I think we have been extremely fortunate to be 18 - 6 right now despite the number of injuries. I am merely a glass half full type of person.

The part I disagreed with, you didn't address though. You state "As for Lin. He is inferior to Felton across the board, stat wise. Lin has been a debacle and absolute disappointment. The fact that people are in this thread and pretending otherwise is ABSURD and reeks of bias." I stated Lin has had a bad year but by last years standards and I further went on to state Lin's FG% is higher (barely) and yet you said the above "... stat wise" comment. I basically am saying Lin is the better player, but you jumped over that part and made this into a bit of a Straw Man argument or at least a red herring type of ploy, in how you avoided a lot of what I said and then misconstrued what I did say and applied it towards your argument. Hope that was understandable ;-)

Basically, I think we would have had a better team with Lin over Felton, though I am not totally against Felton as he is a pretty good player, but in no way shape or form does he have Lin's understanding, "IT" factor, or orchestration abilities of a team, not even close.

earthmansurfer wrote:

NUPE wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

NUPE wrote:
I don't believe Felton is dumb. That is a pretty childish statement. Felton's TO are generally low. Felton generally makes smart plays. Felton's shooting is not great but Felton's primary role in the offense is not to shoot when we have a healthy team. What part of this simple statement don't you understand.

In a situation like today, who else was gonna take the shots. Brewer can't create. Chandler can't create. Kidd can't create. Novak can't create. Prig generally does not create. The only creators were JR, Copeland and Felton so they were the ones that were going to take the shots and dominate the ball. It's literally common sense.

There are a few Knicks that did not play great today but for some reason the focus is on Felton. LoL!

As for Lin. He is inferior to Felton across the board, stat wise. Lin has been a debacle and absolute disappointment. The fact that people are in this thread and pretending otherwise is ABSURD and reeks of bias.

Felton has a GREAT handle, but that is not synonymous with smarts. I wouldn't say Felton is dumb, but he sure ain't on the smart side. I guess average to below average smart wise. To win, it really helps to have a smart pg, like Kidd, Lin, etc. Felton does not take chances with bad passes though, he is great there also. He doesn't see the court anywhere near Lin though.

Lin has had a mostly bad year, by last years standards anyway. But he is a 24 year old, in his second year and putting up 11pts, 6assists, 4reb, 2stls and that is playing next to a ball dominant G in Harden. Lin's FG% is up to 41% after that horrid start - guess what, that is slightly above Feltons FG%. Lin is playing a lot better than some 2nd year pg's drafted in the first half of the draft around when he came out into the NBA (Fredette, etc.)

You are right, Felton is playing pretty good, but if anything happens to Melo or Stat in the playoffs and we need a new #1 or just #2 in general (not depending on Stat making his 3rd or 4th injury comeback in 2 or 3 seasons) we are in hot water. We can't overlook that and we saw it last night. The playoffs are a different animal - I do like our chances though. I think like many people here, we are just saying it was stupid to let a talent like Lin go for nothing. Lin is getting better and better as the season goes on, his health is almost back to where it needs to be. I just think we would be a better team with him on it - He can create...

When you watch Lin and Felton both play, don't make it into a stat argument (e.g. - There is no stat for court vision, will, etc.) - Lin still has "IT"...

You state Felton is playing pretty good. That is all I have stated. It's that simple. I am also not calling Felton a stud or great or claiming Felton will lead us to a title. The great thing is that Felton was brought here NOT to lead us to a title but to be a solid roll player.

If the top two players go down on any team during the playoffs then any team would be in trouble. This expectation that a roll player would morph into an all star pg is a bit much. I don't expect Felton to carry this team when Melo and Amar'e are out. He is not that type of player. What Felton is, is a solid pg that will run an offense and play defense and generally get the ball to players where they excel. That is what I expect of him.

I think we were fortunate to beat the Heat and lowly Cavs without Melo / Amar'e. I think we have been extremely fortunate to be 18 - 6 right now despite the number of injuries. I am merely a glass half full type of person.

The part I disagreed with, you didn't address though. You state "As for Lin. He is inferior to Felton across the board, stat wise. Lin has been a debacle and absolute disappointment. The fact that people are in this thread and pretending otherwise is ABSURD and reeks of bias." I stated Lin has had a bad year but by last years standards and I further went on to state Lin's FG% is higher (barely) and yet you said the above "... stat wise" comment. I basically am saying Lin is the better player, but you jumped over that part and made this into a bit of a Straw Man argument or at least a red herring type of ploy, in how you avoided a lot of what I said and then misconstrued what I did say and applied it towards your argument. Hope that was understandable ;-)

Basically, I think we would have had a better team with Lin over Felton, though I am not totally against Felton as he is a pretty good player, but in no way shape or form does he have Lin's understanding, "IT" factor, or orchestration abilities of a team, not even close.

you don't think that is over the top? a debacle and disapointment? to who? I think this is what many of you want to believe.... that doesn't make it so... so let me ask, what about this year with lin has been a debacle?

if this is what you believe than looking at their numbers.. is felton a debacle? and disapointment?

edit:

I am sorry earthman please accept my apologies.. I didn't realize you were quoting another poster( need to work on your quoting skills man.. LOL)

I agree with you and basically my post should be addressed towards someone else..

again..

sorry

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

Lin also took a subtle dig at Anthony when talking about the Knicks not being healthy.

“They’re not their full team and at the top of the list is Shump [Iman Shumpert],’’ Lin said. “He’s a difference-maker. And Carmelo and Amar’e [Stoudemire] obviously didn’t play.’’

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_suffer_fall_lin_garden_x0xxyt5INZrgPqheAxy2pI

Thoughts?

When I first read TKF's post, I just assumed Lin was talking about how they were able to bypass the Knicks' defense. Seeing it now, it does seem like a not so subtle dig at not only Melo but Amare as well. Kind of like a "Shumpert would have made all the difference for this team...oh yeah and Melo and Amare could have helped also".

Yeah, same here. I'm surprised by that. I can see him giving Shump props; I agree that he is a difference-maker, as I stated above. But it's as he was acting as if Melo & Amar'e were afterthoughts or something. Like "oh, yeah, the superstar and the 6-time All-Star could have helped, too."

This reminds me when Melo thought of Amar'e and Chandler as afterthoughts to begin the season as true Team Leaders

yea, good point.. Listen, lin may play the Naive role a bit here, but he is no fool, and the young fella knows the difference between leadership and lack thereof... i honestly think he doesn't respect amare, carmelo or chandler as leaders... last year, all of them had the chance to take on that role and and help our season even more.. all of them failed.. amare failed losing his cool, chandler seemed a bit two faced and 3G you know what I mean here, and melo was just a baby last year( and please I am not going to get into any silly melo debates people so I won't address this any further) plain and simple... so yea, I can see lin taking a dig at all of them, and justifiably so....

the fact that he refrenced a rookie as a difference maker, was no mistake...

Yea I agree that's pretty bad.

I mean Lin is only in his 3rd year, with only half a season's worth of starts, and taking swipes at tenured guys like Melo, Amare, and Chandler who've been in the league a combined 30+ years.

What a douche bag.

I don't care about how long those guys have been in the league....if you are not a leader, if you are not respected then I can see it being called out... despite lin's short time in this league, he is a HUGE figure in the NBA, he has a voice and obviously the media thinks enough of it to print what he says...

Just like when the media asked Tyson a couple mos back what he thought of Lin while in New York and his place in the league. Tyson basically in so many words said he was a crappy point guard big upping Felton, only for Lin to show in both games we played them this year Lin's pretty solid.

You mean this:

‘Baron was hurt and Jeremy was a young point guard who was just learning, trying to learn and figure out an offense,’ Chandler said. ‘It was nothing against them and it was definitely nothing against Baron. Baron was hurt the whole year and giving us everything he had. Jeremy was a young point guard who was inexperienced, who brought a great light to the organization. But as far as being able to run the offense and putting players in the right position he just wasn’t there. We got some veteran point guards that are capable of doing that.’ Chandler was a big Lin fan and praised him repeatedly last season. But with Lin now a member of the Houston Rockets, the Knicks have moved on.”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/tyson-chandler-likes-knicks-additions-at-point-guard-1.4080467

He was absolutely correct in his assessment of Lin. He did not say he was a crappy PG, just that he was inexperienced and noted his flaws.

I don't see this as a "dig" at Lin, but an honest assessment of his skill set at the time. When Amar'e & Melo came back, and he was required to be less ball-dominant, he seemed to struggle with running the O. All of that was true.

NYDiva wrote:

Lin also took a subtle dig at Anthony when talking about the Knicks not being healthy.

“They’re not their full team and at the top of the list is Shump [Iman Shumpert],’’ Lin said. “He’s a difference-maker. And Carmelo and Amar’e [Stoudemire] obviously didn’t play.’’

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_suffer_fall_lin_garden_x0xxyt5INZrgPqheAxy2pI

Thoughts?

I have no issue with this. I don't consider it a shot at Melo or Amar'e. It is a simple and straight forward statement.

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

Lin also took a subtle dig at Anthony when talking about the Knicks not being healthy.

“They’re not their full team and at the top of the list is Shump [Iman Shumpert],’’ Lin said. “He’s a difference-maker. And Carmelo and Amar’e [Stoudemire] obviously didn’t play.’’

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_suffer_fall_lin_garden_x0xxyt5INZrgPqheAxy2pI

Thoughts?

When I first read TKF's post, I just assumed Lin was talking about how they were able to bypass the Knicks' defense. Seeing it now, it does seem like a not so subtle dig at not only Melo but Amare as well. Kind of like a "Shumpert would have made all the difference for this team...oh yeah and Melo and Amare could have helped also".

Yeah, same here. I'm surprised by that. I can see him giving Shump props; I agree that he is a difference-maker, as I stated above. But it's as he was acting as if Melo & Amar'e were afterthoughts or something. Like "oh, yeah, the superstar and the 6-time All-Star could have helped, too."

This reminds me when Melo thought of Amar'e and Chandler as afterthoughts to begin the season as true Team Leaders

yea, good point.. Listen, lin may play the Naive role a bit here, but he is no fool, and the young fella knows the difference between leadership and lack thereof... i honestly think he doesn't respect amare, carmelo or chandler as leaders... last year, all of them had the chance to take on that role and and help our season even more.. all of them failed.. amare failed losing his cool, chandler seemed a bit two faced and 3G you know what I mean here, and melo was just a baby last year( and please I am not going to get into any silly melo debates people so I won't address this any further) plain and simple... so yea, I can see lin taking a dig at all of them, and justifiably so....

the fact that he refrenced a rookie as a difference maker, was no mistake...

Yea I agree that's pretty bad.

I mean Lin is only in his 3rd year, with only half a season's worth of starts, and taking swipes at tenured guys like Melo, Amare, and Chandler who've been in the league a combined 30+ years.

What a douche bag.

I don't care about how long those guys have been in the league....if you are not a leader, if you are not respected then I can see it being called out... despite lin's short time in this league, he is a HUGE figure in the NBA, he has a voice and obviously the media thinks enough of it to print what he says...

Just like when the media asked Tyson a couple mos back what he thought of Lin while in New York and his place in the league. Tyson basically in so many words said he was a crappy point guard big upping Felton, only for Lin to show in both games we played them this year Lin's pretty solid.

YEP, as I said, chandler is another funny dude...

arkrud wrote:

NUPE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

Lin also took a subtle dig at Anthony when talking about the Knicks not being healthy.

“They’re not their full team and at the top of the list is Shump [Iman Shumpert],’’ Lin said. “He’s a difference-maker. And Carmelo and Amar’e [Stoudemire] obviously didn’t play.’’

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_suffer_fall_lin_garden_x0xxyt5INZrgPqheAxy2pI

Thoughts?

I have no issue with this. I don't consider it a shot at Melo or Amar'e. It is a simple and straight forward statement.

We did lost this game because of bad defense. And defense was bad mostly because we have no one who can even minimally slow down Lin and Harden on the perimeter and close penetrations. We do not have inside presence to block them out too.
Shump is the only one player we have who can do this when healthy.
With Melo and Stat we will have a chance to outscore them but not slow down.
All our points are slow and luck athleticism. And out inside players are even slower.
Team like Huston, Thunder, Clips, Memphis, Golden State, Miny, Jazz, Atlanta, and even Bucks will give us a lot of problems.
Fortunately most of them are out West and we will not play them much, and not in Playoffs

add in philly.. and brooklyn

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:

arkrud wrote:

NUPE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:

Lin also took a subtle dig at Anthony when talking about the Knicks not being healthy.

“They’re not their full team and at the top of the list is Shump [Iman Shumpert],’’ Lin said. “He’s a difference-maker. And Carmelo and Amar’e [Stoudemire] obviously didn’t play.’’

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_suffer_fall_lin_garden_x0xxyt5INZrgPqheAxy2pI

Thoughts?

I have no issue with this. I don't consider it a shot at Melo or Amar'e. It is a simple and straight forward statement.

We did lost this game because of bad defense. And defense was bad mostly because we have no one who can even minimally slow down Lin and Harden on the perimeter and close penetrations. We do not have inside presence to block them out too.
Shump is the only one player we have who can do this when healthy.
With Melo and Stat we will have a chance to outscore them but not slow down.
All our points are slow and luck athleticism. And out inside players are even slower.
Team like Huston, Thunder, Clips, Memphis, Golden State, Miny, Jazz, Atlanta, and even Bucks will give us a lot of problems.
Fortunately most of them are out West and we will not play them much, and not in Playoffs

add in philly.. and brooklyn

We have beaten, thrashed actually, Philly twice. Brooklyn, we have split games with.

I don't see this as a huge issue for now. We will see how things play out.

Thank God no one really runs and guns in the postseason.

NUPE wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

The part I disagreed with, you didn't address though. You state "As for Lin. He is inferior to Felton across the board, stat wise. Lin has been a debacle and absolute disappointment. The fact that people are in this thread and pretending otherwise is ABSURD and reeks of bias." I stated Lin has had a bad year but by last years standards and I further went on to state Lin's FG% is higher (barely) and yet you said the above "... stat wise" comment. I basically am saying Lin is the better player, but you jumped over that part and made this into a bit of a Straw Man argument or at least a red herring type of ploy, in how you avoided a lot of what I said and then misconstrued what I did say and applied it towards your argument. Hope that was understandable ;-)

Basically, I think we would have had a better team with Lin over Felton, though I am not totally against Felton as he is a pretty good player, but in no way shape or form does he have Lin's understanding, "IT" factor, or orchestration abilities of a team, not even close.

If you think Lin is the better player, that is fine. I don't agree. Not a big deal.

I don't rely on things like "it" factor. I rely on stats and watching games. I have league pass. I watch multiple games nightly. As a pg, Felton controls the ball and turns it over less when called to be the primary ball handler on this team. Felton is averaging more points. Felton is shooting SUBSTANTIALLY better from three. Felton is putting up more assists and less TO. Many analysts that have discussed this over the last few weeks have stated the Knicks made the right decision in regards to Lin and Felton. I guess they hate Lin also?

I think Lin has been overwhelming bad for MOST of this year and the numbers indicate that if you take them week by week. Lin has been better the last week or so but that does not blot out or erase the prior horrific play.

You keep on pointing to their stats and saying they clearly show Felton is better but you haven't compared the two.

Raymond Felton: 16.2PPG; 6.7AST; 2.8REB; 1.2STL; 2.4TO; 6.5/16.3 FGM/FGA; 40.3FG%; 1.7/4.4 3FG/3FGA; 39%3FG; 1.4/1.9 FTM/FTA; 75.6% FT%

Jeremy Lin: 11.3PPG: 6AST; 4REB; 1.8STL; 2.8TO; 4.2/10.3 FGM/FGA; 40.7FG%; 0.8/2.8 3FG/3FGA; 30.3%3FG; 2/2.5 FTM/FTA; 81.7%FT;

If you're more into advanced stats then Felton has 1.2 Win Shares and 0.073 WS/48 and Lin has 1.1 Win Shares and 0.067 WS/48.