CrushAlot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Wow, guess I hit a sensitive spot

jrodmc - Fair point (and I'm not hating anyone), but Melo has essentially taken what, 9 or so years to start playing like this? Kidd has done it from day one and the affect he has had on Feltons game (e.g. - look at how much worse Felton generally plays with Kidd out). It is pretty clear who is affecting who more. And when I watch the game, Melo still takes those terrible shots too much for my liking. Ok, he is capable of making them, but playing more intelligently only helps the team and increases your shooting %.

Totally agree, Kidd established his leadership since training camp and during practice, whether he plays the next 10 games or not. There is no question that Kidd and Chandler are the leaders of this team and rightfully so, since they have championship experience under their belt.

That's great, then maybe Kidd should be coaching the team, since actually performing on the court doesn't seem to count for all that much in your respective worlds. 6 30 point games this year so far.

Melo's been in the playoffs every year. He was damned near the ROY. This "oh well, he finally starts playing like this" bull**** wears a bit thin after awhile.

Like I've said in other threads, the hate will continue to simmer endlessly, even if the man goes out and wins a chip for us.

Kidd is a great additional role player for this team. Felton was going to be playing with a chip on his shoulder no matter who was here this season. Tyson is our defensive achor and giant Spree-attitude.

Melo is the franchise right now.

Very sorry, but you'll just have to live with it.

I think we just have different perspectives of the game. I don't really care a ton about statistics. Yes, it sure is fun to see a player like Melo play, great talent. And there is some meaning to the stats. And someone with his talent can get a team without much talent around him to the playoffs.

But ask yourself this: Did he play to his ability those years in Denver? Did he make others better around him or did he just try to carry the team? Even when he had talent around him, he still was not playing what I would call great team ball. (Even the way the trade went down was indicative of his ME personality. Hey, most guys have that so this isn't hating him.) What I see him doing now is playing more team ball and trying to take over less. THAT IS RESPONSIBLE for us winning and not his multiple 30 point games. I think we actually play better when he doesn't score too much (someone posted that statistic here recently). This is not about statistics solely. It is much much more than that and the interesting thing about "Melo Fans" is that they jump to 2 things - His number and going to the playoffs.

Look, no one questions that Melo has alot of talent. The question is can he harness it together with his mind/heart and take it to the next level. And we haven't answered that question yet, but he is off to a much better start than usual (at least regarding team play).

Knicks are 3-2 I believe when Melo has scored over 30. Kidd is a great addition but not sure why as a 39 year old he is compared to Melo in any way. If you want to say that the Knicks assembled a team around Melo that utilizes him best I would agree. Kidd's value should not be compared with Melo at this point in his career.

You are not sure why I compared the two? I laid it out for you. Kidd has been a leader and intelligent player since he entered the league. Melo has just recently picked his game up as far as playing smart goes. jrodc made this into Melo hate and it isn't that. As a fan we can criticize our own players and though I'm a bit over the fence now on Melo, I'd like to see more consistency and smart play from him. He is too good a talent to not make those around him better - like Kidd has done his whole career. And you don't need to be a PG to do so...

Oh, so that leaves the Knicks at 11-2 when Melo scores less than 30. So, compare 60% winning record to 85%. Ok, the sample size is small and all the facts aren't in, but we can't overlook this stat.

earthmansurfer wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Wow, guess I hit a sensitive spot

jrodmc - Fair point (and I'm not hating anyone), but Melo has essentially taken what, 9 or so years to start playing like this? Kidd has done it from day one and the affect he has had on Feltons game (e.g. - look at how much worse Felton generally plays with Kidd out). It is pretty clear who is affecting who more. And when I watch the game, Melo still takes those terrible shots too much for my liking. Ok, he is capable of making them, but playing more intelligently only helps the team and increases your shooting %.

Totally agree, Kidd established his leadership since training camp and during practice, whether he plays the next 10 games or not. There is no question that Kidd and Chandler are the leaders of this team and rightfully so, since they have championship experience under their belt.

That's great, then maybe Kidd should be coaching the team, since actually performing on the court doesn't seem to count for all that much in your respective worlds. 6 30 point games this year so far.

Melo's been in the playoffs every year. He was damned near the ROY. This "oh well, he finally starts playing like this" bull**** wears a bit thin after awhile.

Like I've said in other threads, the hate will continue to simmer endlessly, even if the man goes out and wins a chip for us.

Kidd is a great additional role player for this team. Felton was going to be playing with a chip on his shoulder no matter who was here this season. Tyson is our defensive achor and giant Spree-attitude.

Melo is the franchise right now.

Very sorry, but you'll just have to live with it.

I think we just have different perspectives of the game. I don't really care a ton about statistics. Yes, it sure is fun to see a player like Melo play, great talent. And there is some meaning to the stats. And someone with his talent can get a team without much talent around him to the playoffs.

But ask yourself this: Did he play to his ability those years in Denver? Did he make others better around him or did he just try to carry the team? Even when he had talent around him, he still was not playing what I would call great team ball. (Even the way the trade went down was indicative of his ME personality. Hey, most guys have that so this isn't hating him.) What I see him doing now is playing more team ball and trying to take over less. THAT IS RESPONSIBLE for us winning and not his multiple 30 point games. I think we actually play better when he doesn't score too much (someone posted that statistic here recently). This is not about statistics solely. It is much much more than that and the interesting thing about "Melo Fans" is that they jump to 2 things - His number and going to the playoffs.

Look, no one questions that Melo has alot of talent. The question is can he harness it together with his mind/heart and take it to the next level. And we haven't answered that question yet, but he is off to a much better start than usual (at least regarding team play).

Knicks are 3-2 I believe when Melo has scored over 30. Kidd is a great addition but not sure why as a 39 year old he is compared to Melo in any way. If you want to say that the Knicks assembled a team around Melo that utilizes him best I would agree. Kidd's value should not be compared with Melo at this point in his career.

You are not sure why I compared the two? I laid it out for you. Kidd has been a leader and intelligent player since he entered the league. Melo has just recently picked his game up as far as playing smart goes. jrodc made this into Melo hate and it isn't that. As a fan we can criticize our own players and though I'm a bit over the fence now on Melo, I'd like to see more consistency and smart play from him. He is too good a talent to not make those around him better - like Kidd has done his whole career. And you don't need to be a PG to do so...

Oh, so that leaves the Knicks at 11-2 when Melo scores less than 30. So, compare 60% winning record to 85%. Ok, the sample size is small and all the facts aren't in, but we can't overlook this stat.

Please, I'm just begging you to have one paragraph that even approaches logical consistency.

Stats mean nothing. Stats can't be overlooked.

It's not about Melo hate. I'm a bit over the fence on Melo.

Melo has always had lots of talent. Melo has just recently picked up his game.

Comparing our current franchise player NOW, who's doing everything from diving on the floor to ripping himself up on folding chairs, to JKidd who's NOW a complimentary piece that's slightly broken down on THIS SQUAD, NOW, TODAY, THIS SEASON is ridiculous.

Complete failure.

earthmansurfer wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Wow, guess I hit a sensitive spot

jrodmc - Fair point (and I'm not hating anyone), but Melo has essentially taken what, 9 or so years to start playing like this? Kidd has done it from day one and the affect he has had on Feltons game (e.g. - look at how much worse Felton generally plays with Kidd out). It is pretty clear who is affecting who more. And when I watch the game, Melo still takes those terrible shots too much for my liking. Ok, he is capable of making them, but playing more intelligently only helps the team and increases your shooting %.

Totally agree, Kidd established his leadership since training camp and during practice, whether he plays the next 10 games or not. There is no question that Kidd and Chandler are the leaders of this team and rightfully so, since they have championship experience under their belt.

That's great, then maybe Kidd should be coaching the team, since actually performing on the court doesn't seem to count for all that much in your respective worlds. 6 30 point games this year so far.

Melo's been in the playoffs every year. He was damned near the ROY. This "oh well, he finally starts playing like this" bull**** wears a bit thin after awhile.

Like I've said in other threads, the hate will continue to simmer endlessly, even if the man goes out and wins a chip for us.

Kidd is a great additional role player for this team. Felton was going to be playing with a chip on his shoulder no matter who was here this season. Tyson is our defensive achor and giant Spree-attitude.

Melo is the franchise right now.

Very sorry, but you'll just have to live with it.

I think we just have different perspectives of the game. I don't really care a ton about statistics. Yes, it sure is fun to see a player like Melo play, great talent. And there is some meaning to the stats. And someone with his talent can get a team without much talent around him to the playoffs.

But ask yourself this: Did he play to his ability those years in Denver? Did he make others better around him or did he just try to carry the team? Even when he had talent around him, he still was not playing what I would call great team ball. (Even the way the trade went down was indicative of his ME personality. Hey, most guys have that so this isn't hating him.) What I see him doing now is playing more team ball and trying to take over less. THAT IS RESPONSIBLE for us winning and not his multiple 30 point games. I think we actually play better when he doesn't score too much (someone posted that statistic here recently). This is not about statistics solely. It is much much more than that and the interesting thing about "Melo Fans" is that they jump to 2 things - His number and going to the playoffs.

Look, no one questions that Melo has alot of talent. The question is can he harness it together with his mind/heart and take it to the next level. And we haven't answered that question yet, but he is off to a much better start than usual (at least regarding team play).

Knicks are 3-2 I believe when Melo has scored over 30. Kidd is a great addition but not sure why as a 39 year old he is compared to Melo in any way. If you want to say that the Knicks assembled a team around Melo that utilizes him best I would agree. Kidd's value should not be compared with Melo at this point in his career.

You are not sure why I compared the two? I laid it out for you. Kidd has been a leader and intelligent player since he entered the league. Melo has just recently picked his game up as far as playing smart goes. jrodc made this into Melo hate and it isn't that. As a fan we can criticize our own players and though I'm a bit over the fence now on Melo, I'd like to see more consistency and smart play from him. He is too good a talent to not make those around him better - like Kidd has done his whole career. And you don't need to be a PG to do so...

Oh, so that leaves the Knicks at 11-2 when Melo scores less than 30. So, compare 60% winning record to 85%. Ok, the sample size is small and all the facts aren't in, but we can't overlook this stat.

Please, I'm just begging you to have one paragraph that even approaches logical consistency.

Stats mean nothing. Stats can't be overlooked.

It's not about Melo hate. I'm a bit over the fence on Melo.

Melo has always had lots of talent. Melo has just recently picked up his game.

Comparing our current franchise player NOW, who's doing everything from diving on the floor to ripping himself up on folding chairs, to JKidd who's NOW a complimentary piece that's slightly broken down on THIS SQUAD, NOW, TODAY, THIS SEASON is ridiculous.

Complete failure.

When you take things out of context and especially when you actually change my words, you can for sure distort an argument. Add to that your "I'm just begging you... logical consistency" opening comment.

I think it's clear that I was talking about Stats are not the tell all, and yet we can't overlook them. We have to take them in perspective, see they serve a purpose but are not the end all. We have to look at the whole game. It's not black and white.

I don't hate Melo. Being critical of him and hate are not the same thing. Yes, there is hate on the forums regarding him, but instead of attacking it, I'd start to ask "Why is such a great player receiving it?" Melo is great, but he is not a complete player yet, but he is getting there this season, so far. I'm no longer ON the fence, I'm over it but not quite on the other side. Understand? I'm still not 100% in his court.

Melo has always had talent, but he didn't use his brains much. He carried teams but didn't make them better, considering his skills. Recently (this year) he has started to play with his head.

These guys get paid millions, it's a game, they should dive on the floor. I dive on the floor during pick up games and I don't get paid anything, lots of guys do. It is a game, don't lose sight of that - emotions run high, that is normal. Coming straight from the players, Kidd has changed the locker room. Not my words, theirs. The guy is a game changer with his leadership and smarts. That is no Knock against Melo, that is a compliment to a hall of famer.

How about this - Don't distort or twist what I say, take it out of context and start the whole manipulation with insults. See, you actually didn't have to beg, just practice what you preach.

Regarding my reply to jrodmc above though, I didn't appreciate his manipulation of my post. I'm not concerned with being right, just discussing things and putting it out there.