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Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date
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VDesai
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4/28/2014  12:36 AM
Really did not like the changes made with Jon and Bran's storyline with the latest episode. Also they spoiled something from the series and basically told us that the others have been converting Craster's sons for the last however many years.
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H1AND1
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4/28/2014  10:44 AM
VDesai wrote:Really did not like the changes made with Jon and Bran's storyline with the latest episode. Also they spoiled something from the series and basically told us that the others have been converting Craster's sons for the last however many years.

Well, we kind've knew they were converting Craster's sons. Remember right before the mutiny, one of the wives tells Sam that he must help Gilly otherwise "they'll come" for the baby and when Sam asks who, the wive says "his brothers". If the implication is Craster is offering up his sons to the Others and that they eventually come back to get more it's not a stretch to assume they were coming back as Others. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

All that being said, the fact that the show EXPLICITLY showed it to us and not only that showed up the Lands of Always Winter (if you look closely the once newborn baby is def a couple months old when it's on the alter) is a monumental moment in the show because it's the first time book readers are spoiled in a sense via the info Martin has given D&D from his unpublished material.

Another interesting tidbit is HBO's synopsis originally called the Other who laid the finger on the baby "The Nights King". Boom. They changed it to "Walker" however shortly thereafter. Mistake or huge piece of important info? Who knows!

BigDaddyG
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4/28/2014  11:40 AM
H1AND1 wrote:
VDesai wrote:Really did not like the changes made with Jon and Bran's storyline with the latest episode. Also they spoiled something from the series and basically told us that the others have been converting Craster's sons for the last however many years.

Well, we kind've knew they were converting Craster's sons. Remember right before the mutiny, one of the wives tells Sam that he must help Gilly otherwise "they'll come" for the baby and when Sam asks who, the wive says "his brothers". If the implication is Craster is offering up his sons to the Others and that they eventually come back to get more it's not a stretch to assume they were coming back as Others. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

All that being said, the fact that the show EXPLICITLY showed it to us and not only that showed up the Lands of Always Winter (if you look closely the once newborn baby is def a couple months old when it's on the alter) is a monumental moment in the show because it's the first time book readers are spoiled in a sense via the info Martin has given D&D from his unpublished material.

Another interesting tidbit is HBO's synopsis originally called the Other who laid the finger on the baby "The Nights King". Boom. They changed it to "Walker" however shortly thereafter. Mistake or huge piece of important info? Who k!

I saw the flub lol I wonder if it's the same night king who's rumored to be of Stark ancestry. Anyway, I thought the final scene was awesome. It's something that's always been speculated ever since the show confirmed Craster was givings sons to the Others in season 2. There revealed a little about the Land of Always Winter, but not enough to ruin it for book readers.

I do have a problem with the Locke, Bran and Jon storyline. It's hard to generate much drama with Bran since Joejen has already revealed when he is going to die. It's all filler material and I don't see why the writers couldn't have just stuck with source material regarding Bran. Coldhands isn't awesome enough?

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
VDesai
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4/28/2014  9:50 PM
I wonder if Coldhands still appears at some point- perhaps to save Bran and Co. from Karl and Rast. Part of me wonders if they are adding this extra stuff to Jon and Bran's story because they need enough to fill in the gaps while they go parallel with Feast for Crows story lines.

I saw that Night's King blurb last night too. That would have huge implication of the leader of the other was the Night's King- though it also might not make much sense. The Night's King was also the 13th lord commander of the watch and weren't there about 13 Others in that sequence last night?

Anyway now we know the explicit reason as to why Craster is always spared and how he has survived for so long.

Back to a couple weeks ago, is the party line for the series creators that the Jamie/Cersei scene was supposed to be consentual. Cause it definitely looked like a rape, which is a signifcant departure from how that passage was written. That really changes the perception of the Jamie character, whom at this point, becomes a reader favorite.

BigDaddyG
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4/28/2014  10:49 PM
VDesai wrote:I wonder if Coldhands still appears at some point- perhaps to save Bran and Co. from Karl and Rast. Part of me wonders if they are adding this extra stuff to Jon and Bran's story because they need enough to fill in the gaps while they go parallel with Feast for Crows story lines.

I saw that Night's King blurb last night too. That would have huge implication of the leader of the other was the Night's King- though it also might not make much sense. The Night's King was also the 13th lord commander of the watch and weren't there about 13 Others in that sequence last night?

Anyway now we know the explicit reason as to why Craster is always spared and how he has survived for so long.

Back to a couple weeks ago, is the party line for the series creators that the Jamie/Cersei scene was supposed to be consentual. Cause it definitely looked like a rape, which is a signifcant departure from how that passage was written. That really changes the perception of the Jamie character, whom at this point, becomes a reader favorite.

It may have been an attempt to make Cersei more sympathetic before she goes insane. Lena Heady did a good job in portraying the early signs of Cersei's rapid descent into insanity. Regardless of their reasoning, the show failed in portraying that sex scene.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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5/13/2014  10:59 AM
Sorry to change the subject, but I just noticed this....A little returning to a discussion on why I think Tyrion is half Targ. In te HBO series, Season 3 Episode 10, Tywin tells Tyrion that he didn't kill him when he was born and "I brought you up as my son. Because you were a Lannister." He didn't say Tyrion was his son. Tyrion was a Lannister because Tywin's wife, Johanna was Tywin's first cousin, a Lannister. Start at about 6 minutes in.

From page 2 of this thread.

Why Tyrion might be half Targ. Numerous hints. First is thru Jon's eyes as he sees the 3 Lannister siblings and their children for the first time at the Great Hall in Winterfell (Book 1).
Cersei: She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes.
Myrcella: a cascade of golden curls
Joffrey: Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls
Jaime: tall and golden, with flashing green eyes
Now Tyrion
dwarf, half his brother's height, ....One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.
Jon watched him with fascination.
Lannisters have green eyes; the Targs dark purple which sometimes seem black in dim light.
Lannisters have beautiful golden curls; Targs have straight silvery hair.
Tyrion is described as having half the features of a Lannister and half the features of a Targ.
Jon watching Tyrion with fascination ....and later befriending Tyrion. Strange behavior for a Stark to befriend a Lannister; throughout the book they hate each other; unless of course they were related by their Targ blood.
2. Tyrion loves and is fascinated by dragons and says he reads everything about them. = Targ
3. Tyrion to Jon at the Wall.
"In their father's eyes, all dwarfs are bastards, yet all bastards don't have to be dwarfs."
4. Tyrion defends and wins the battle of King's Landing by using Wildfire, a Targ weapon.
5. In book 5 we hear from Barristan Selmy that Mad King Aerys (Targ) had a thing for Johanna Lannister(Tywin's wife) and made inappropriate strong advances. IMO, he could have raped her very easily and hence, a child = Tyrion.
6. Lord Tywin was the one who sacked Kings Landing and had the entire Targ Royal family slaughtered including the children and Rhaegar's baby son Aegon. Sounds more like a man seeking vengeance than just a conqueror.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
H1AND1
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5/13/2014  11:25 AM
My only problem with the Tyrion/Targ theory is that if Aerys raped Joanna on her wedding night it would be Jaime/Cersei who are Targaryan, not Tyrion. That would imply Aerys and Joanna had an extended fling. There isn't any textual evidence that Joanna ever left Castery Rock nor that Aerys made regular visits there.
VDesai
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5/13/2014  12:50 PM
I would assume Joanna accompanied Tywin to Kings Landing when he was Hand of the King.

Its interesting that Tyrion has a fascination with dragons. Not saying interest is an inherited trade, but a bit telling how he has an encycolpedic knowledge of dragons.

That said- why is it the Targaeryan's in particular that have have the fate of Westeros in their hands? I think Tyrion is still a Lannister and GRRM throws us red herrings occasionally. Clearly Tyrion will have an important part to play in where this ends up, but I don't see why he has to be a Targ for that to happen

Markji
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5/13/2014  12:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/13/2014  12:53 PM
H1AND1 wrote:My only problem with the Tyrion/Targ theory is that if Aerys raped Joanna on her wedding night it would be Jaime/Cersei who are Targaryan, not Tyrion. That would imply Aerys and Joanna had an extended fling. There isn't any textual evidence that Joanna ever left Castery Rock nor that Aerys made regular visits there.

Not on Tywin's wedding night. Tywin was Hand of the king to Aerys and IIRC, someone said (maybe Barristan) that Aerys used to send Tywin away on various missions. So the opportunity would be there for Aerys to rape Joanna.

VDesai just answere with this info.

It could be a red herring, but why the obvious description of Tyrion as having half Lannister and 1/2 Targ facial characteristics?
Perhaps Tyrion will be one of the 3 heads of the dragons.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
H1AND1
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5/13/2014  1:46 PM
Markji wrote:
H1AND1 wrote:My only problem with the Tyrion/Targ theory is that if Aerys raped Joanna on her wedding night it would be Jaime/Cersei who are Targaryan, not Tyrion. That would imply Aerys and Joanna had an extended fling. There isn't any textual evidence that Joanna ever left Castery Rock nor that Aerys made regular visits there.

Not on Tywin's wedding night. Tywin was Hand of the king to Aerys and IIRC, someone said (maybe Barristan) that Aerys used to send Tywin away on various missions. So the opportunity would be there for Aerys to rape Joanna.

VDesai just answere with this info.

It could be a red herring, but why the obvious description of Tyrion as having half Lannister and 1/2 Targ facial characteristics?
Perhaps Tyrion will be one of the 3 heads of the dragons.

That could make sense. I know he sent him to Essos, once though i forget why. I just remember reading that Joanna never left Casterly Rock even while Tywin was in KL acting as hand. Perhaps Im remembering that wrong though.

BigDaddyG
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5/14/2014  6:40 PM
H1AND1 wrote:
Markji wrote:
H1AND1 wrote:My only problem with the Tyrion/Targ theory is that if Aerys raped Joanna on her wedding night it would be Jaime/Cersei who are Targaryan, not Tyrion. That would imply Aerys and Joanna had an extended fling. There isn't any textual evidence that Joanna ever left Castery Rock nor that Aerys made regular visits there.

Not on Tywin's wedding night. Tywin was Hand of the king to Aerys and IIRC, someone said (maybe Barristan) that Aerys used to send Tywin away on various missions. So the opportunity would be there for Aerys to rape Joanna.

VDesai just answere with this info.

It could be a red herring, but why the obvious description of Tyrion as having half Lannister and 1/2 Targ facial characteristics?
Perhaps Tyrion will be one of the 3 heads of the dragons.

That could make sense. I know he sent him to Essos, once though i forget why. I just remember reading that Joanna never left Casterly Rock even while Tywin was in KL acting as hand. Perhaps Im remembering that wrong though.

It's possible. Tyrion has strands of pale blond hair, but the eyes are black. There isn't really anything to infer that the eyes are simply a real dark shade of purple. I haven't seen any other instances of Targaryan's being described like that. I guess you could make the case that all Targs don't possess purple eyes or silver hair. Brown Ben Plumm and the Black Pearl are rumored to have some Targ blood in them and they definitely don't fit the "Targ" profile.

In GRRM's short story "The Princess and the Queen," it's made clear that the Targs were firm believers of the first night tradition and that there were a number of Targ bastards running around Dragonstone. That would explain why Aerys would feel he had a right to get first dibs on Joanna. The common folk on Dragonstone didn't mind because they were often given gifts and lands for this "honor."

That said I don't buy the Tyrion secret Targ theory. "Taking liberties" at a bedding ceremony and having sex with the bride are two different things. Even if they did have sex, Tyrion would be too young to be the product of that night. No other mention is made of Joanna having to fend Aerys off. If Tywin hade known that Tyrion was the product of rape, I'm pretty sure he would have had him killed. Tywin did have Tyrion serve as Hand in his place and,when given the opportunity to have Tyrion executed, he did give him the option of pleading guilty and going to "the Wall." Tywin does this without any prompting from Jaimie in the books. This shows that Tywin does acknowledge that Tyrion is his son to a certain extent. And there's the line from Tywin's cousin (her name escapes me right now) that Tyrion is the closest to being Tywin's child than any of his other children. I think Tyrion will play a strong role in helping Dany learn how to control her dragons. I'm just not sure he is a dragon rider or a secret Targ.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
VDesai
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5/22/2014  9:52 AM
What are your guys thoughts on Mance Rayder? I think he has some Stark Blood going to back to the Bael the Bard legend. Bael the Bard has several parallels with Mance, and was said to impregnate a daughter of prior Lord Stark.
BigDaddyG
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5/22/2014  12:06 PM
VDesai wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Mance Rayder? I think he has some Stark Blood going to back to the Bael the Bard legend. Bael the Bard has several parallels with Mance, and was said to impregnate a daughter of prior Lord Stark.

It might explain why he was so willing to trust John Snow. I don't see any evidence other than a few Bael the Bard parallels. He was found by the Night's Watch when as a wildling child right? It would help to know if this was a common occurrence for the Watch back in the day or if there were special circumstances surrounding Lance.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
VDesai
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5/22/2014  2:16 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Mance Rayder? I think he has some Stark Blood going to back to the Bael the Bard legend. Bael the Bard has several parallels with Mance, and was said to impregnate a daughter of prior Lord Stark.

It might explain why he was so willing to trust John Snow. I don't see any evidence other than a few Bael the Bard parallels. He was found by the Night's Watch when as a wildling child right? It would help to know if this was a common occurrence for the Watch back in the day or if there were special circumstances surrounding Lance.

Yeah he was rescued as an infant and raised by the Night's Watch following a battle with wildlings. Mance plays the harp, is bold, continually goes south of the wall to visit Winterfell, uses the name "Abel The Bard." He clearly idolizes Bael the Bard, but maybe he idolizes him because he's related? Anyway we know there's definitely some Stark blood beyond the wall.

Also I think there are some theories that Mance is even working with the Manderly's and some Northern Lords to scheme to legitamize Jon Snow as part of Robb Stark's will. I could see this potentially- and maybe the "pink letter" isn't from Ramsay but actually a ruse to draw Jon away from the Wall and back to Winterfell.

BigDaddyG
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5/22/2014  8:07 PM
VDesai wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Mance Rayder? I think he has some Stark Blood going to back to the Bael the Bard legend. Bael the Bard has several parallels with Mance, and was said to impregnate a daughter of prior Lord Stark.

It might explain why he was so willing to trust John Snow. I don't see any evidence other than a few Bael the Bard parallels. He was found by the Night's Watch when as a wildling child right? It would help to know if this was a common occurrence for the Watch back in the day or if there were special circumstances surrounding Lance.

Yeah he was rescued as an infant and raised by the Night's Watch following a battle with wildlings. Mance plays the harp, is bold, continually goes south of the wall to visit Winterfell, uses the name "Abel The Bard." He clearly idolizes Bael the Bard, but maybe he idolizes him because he's related? Anyway we know there's definitely some Stark blood beyond the wall.

Also I think there are some theories that Mance is even working with the Manderly's and some Northern Lords to scheme to legitamize Jon Snow as part of Robb Stark's will. I could see this potentially- and maybe the "pink letter" isn't from Ramsay but actually a ruse to draw Jon away from the Wall and back to Winterfell.


Anything is possible. The question is how would Mance have enough time to coordinate with the fat man and carry out his plan to save Arya. Manderly and is forces are already on their way to Stannis. The time element would make it tough. Plus, how many other houses are in on Mance's plan? I'm curious to see which side Lady Dustin is on. She seems to have bitter feelings toward Ned, but she's also shown little love toward Roose and his bastard. I'm split on the pink letter. Stannis isn't above using deceit during warfare and I wouldn't be shocked if he was the one who sent the pink letter to Jon in an effort to draw him out from the Wall. I'm still a little skeptical about that theory. I'm more inclined to believe that Ramsey Bolton wrote the letter using info he obtained from Mance. I do have to admit that Manderly has become my favorite character. The dude has balls as big as his gut.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
H1AND1
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5/29/2014  8:43 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Mance Rayder? I think he has some Stark Blood going to back to the Bael the Bard legend. Bael the Bard has several parallels with Mance, and was said to impregnate a daughter of prior Lord Stark.

It might explain why he was so willing to trust John Snow. I don't see any evidence other than a few Bael the Bard parallels. He was found by the Night's Watch when as a wildling child right? It would help to know if this was a common occurrence for the Watch back in the day or if there were special circumstances surrounding Lance.

Yeah he was rescued as an infant and raised by the Night's Watch following a battle with wildlings. Mance plays the harp, is bold, continually goes south of the wall to visit Winterfell, uses the name "Abel The Bard." He clearly idolizes Bael the Bard, but maybe he idolizes him because he's related? Anyway we know there's definitely some Stark blood beyond the wall.

Also I think there are some theories that Mance is even working with the Manderly's and some Northern Lords to scheme to legitamize Jon Snow as part of Robb Stark's will. I could see this potentially- and maybe the "pink letter" isn't from Ramsay but actually a ruse to draw Jon away from the Wall and back to Winterfell.


Anything is possible. The question is how would Mance have enough time to coordinate with the fat man and carry out his plan to save Arya. Manderly and is forces are already on their way to Stannis. The time element would make it tough. Plus, how many other houses are in on Mance's plan? I'm curious to see which side Lady Dustin is on. She seems to have bitter feelings toward Ned, but she's also shown little love toward Roose and his bastard. I'm split on the pink letter. Stannis isn't above using deceit during warfare and I wouldn't be shocked if he was the one who sent the pink letter to Jon in an effort to draw him out from the Wall. I'm still a little skeptical about that theory. I'm more inclined to believe that Ramsey Bolton wrote the letter using info he obtained from Mance. I do have to admit that Manderly has become my favorite character. The dude has balls as big as his gut.

I was pumping my fist with my non book holding hand when Manderly gives his "North remembers" speech to Davos in the Wolf Den in ADWD...love that Badass Mf'er.

Frey Pies!

BigDaddyG
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5/29/2014  9:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/29/2014  9:53 PM
H1AND1 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Mance Rayder? I think he has some Stark Blood going to back to the Bael the Bard legend. Bael the Bard has several parallels with Mance, and was said to impregnate a daughter of prior Lord Stark.

It might explain why he was so willing to trust John Snow. I don't see any evidence other than a few Bael the Bard parallels. He was found by the Night's Watch when as a wildling child right? It would help to know if this was a common occurrence for the Watch back in the day or if there were special circumstances surrounding Lance.

Yeah he was rescued as an infant and raised by the Night's Watch following a battle with wildlings. Mance plays the harp, is bold, continually goes south of the wall to visit Winterfell, uses the name "Abel The Bard." He clearly idolizes Bael the Bard, but maybe he idolizes him because he's related? Anyway we know there's definitely some Stark blood beyond the wall.

Also I think there are some theories that Mance is even working with the Manderly's and some Northern Lords to scheme to legitamize Jon Snow as part of Robb Stark's will. I could see this potentially- and maybe the "pink letter" isn't from Ramsay but actually a ruse to draw Jon away from the Wall and back to Winterfell.


Anything is possible. The question is how would Mance have enough time to coordinate with the fat man and carry out his plan to save Arya. Manderly and is forces are already on their way to Stannis. The time element would make it tough. Plus, how many other houses are in on Mance's plan? I'm curious to see which side Lady Dustin is on. She seems to have bitter feelings toward Ned, but she's also shown little love toward Roose and his bastard. I'm split on the pink letter. Stannis isn't above using deceit during warfare and I wouldn't be shocked if he was the one who sent the pink letter to Jon in an effort to draw him out from the Wall. I'm still a little skeptical about that theory. I'm more inclined to believe that Ramsey Bolton wrote the letter using info he obtained from Mance. I do have to admit that Manderly has become my favorite character. The dude has balls as big as his gut.

I was pumping my fist with my non book holding hand when Manderly gives his "North remembers" speech to Davos in the Wolf Den in ADWD...love that Badass Mf'er.

Frey Pies!


Yeah, the part I'm looking forward to the most is when Manderly links up with Stannis. Maybe Stannis can learn some lesson from the "Man"himself. There are so many moving prices in this scheme and it would be a shame if Stannis killed off one of his strongest potential allies without realizing it.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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6/15/2014  5:16 PM
Spoiler
Did anyone else catch the foreshadowing from the HBO series episode 8. It was well done. Littlefinger tell Robin Arryn to tour his lands, the Vale. Robbin replied that it was dangerous. Litttlefinger beautifully explained that people die everywhere, and lists a few places including "while squatting on a chamberpot". Ha. We should see this in episode 10.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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6/15/2014  9:45 PM
I just want to go record as saying that Jojen paste is still on the table.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
yellowboy90
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6/16/2014  11:01 AM
Markji wrote:Spoiler
Did anyone else catch the foreshadowing from the HBO series episode 8. It was well done. Littlefinger tell Robin Arryn to tour his lands, the Vale. Robbin replied that it was dangerous. Litttlefinger beautifully explained that people die everywhere, and lists a few places including "while squatting on a chamberpot". Ha. We should see this in episode 10.

Or in beds(shae)

Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date

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