BigDaddyG wrote:

Markji wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

I'm still trying to choose among the following theories: Aegon is really Aegon, Aegon being a Blackfyre or him being Ilyrio's son. I don't by Darkstar being anything more than a dangerous Dornish swordsman who was given really cheesy lines. We've seen Daynes with Target like features before. Aegon is obviously the mummers dragon, but I don't take that to mean that he's fake. It just means that he's being propped up by Varys. It's possible that Ilyrio married a female Targ bastard and gave birth. I looked up the Black Pearl earlier and saw she was a Targ descendent. There's no telling how many are out there.

So many theories. Illyrio's 2nd wife Serra was his true love. She died of the plague. She was from Lys and the Lysene had the same features as the Targaryens - silver hair and purple eyes. Illyrio, when young, was a fierce strong sellsword with a very strong, sculptured body. So he could have fathered Young Griff and they have convinced Connington that Young Griff is the real Aegon.

Switching babies is easy. Hard to tell the difference if someone, i.e. The Mountain, had never seen the baby. And since The Mountain smashed in the face of the baby, who can say if the baby was really Aegon.

Why I think Darkstar is really Aegon : he
1.has the silver hair and purple eyes of the Targs (also the Daynes)
2.has a dark streak through his hair - middle of his head. GRRM stated that baby Aegon had both Targ features and some Dornish (maybe dark hair features from his mother who was Dornish)
3. Hates the Lannisters - tries to kill an innocent girl - Myrcella lannister.
4. is known to be crazy - like the Mad King.
5. Another theory - The real Aegon could have been brought to the Tower of Joy by the 3 Kingsguard who were there when Ned arrived. Why would 3 Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander(Ser Gerold Hightower) and the greatest swordsman (Ser Arthur Dayne) be at the Tower, away from the war and away from protecting the royal family, unless the heir was also there. Ned brought Aegon to the Daynes to be raised, IMO. Maybe this is what Lyanna had Ned promise.

This, of course doesn't "prove" anything. We need more info, but I think it is a real possibility.

The 3 heads of the Dragon - I agree with Daenerys and Jon Snow. The third could be Tyrion - I believe he is half Targ (mad king is his father) and mother is Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife). The mad king had a huge crush on Joanna and would send Tywin away on various missions. He could have easily raped her. The first description of Tyrion iindicates Targ features.

So many theories, and we await book 6 and hopefully book 7 to find out.

Have you read the GRRM's short in the Dangerous Women anthology yet. I thought it vwas decent, but he goes into a lot of detail inti dragon riding. I wouldn't be surprised if the third rider was Brown Benn lol. As for why three Kings Guardsmen were sent to protect Lyanna? I think the L+R=J theory fits more smoothly. What did you guys think of HBOs depiction of the Thenns? I wasn't thrilled with it, but I think it reveals a little about Rickon's fate in Skagos. The book only mentions that that there are rumors that some groups of Wildings practiced cannibalism. I guess it's no longer a rumor.

Yes I agree about R + L = J. I didn't restate that here. I was going on that assumption because that makes the most sense.

But it still doesn't explain why 3 of the 7 Kingsguard are at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna is there but she is an abducted non-family person while Rhaegar's son and heir (Aegon) along with Rhaegar's daughter and wife; the Mad King and queen (Rhaegars and Dany's parents) are all at King's Landing. And Prince Rhaegar (the immediate heir) is in the middle of a battle, the most dangerous place. The Kingsguard should have been with Rhaegar and at King's Landing because their job is to protect the Royal Family. Not an abducted woman (Lyanna).

Also, I don't understand why they had to fight to the death if it were only Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. The war was over. The Targs were all either dead or fled the country. Ned loved Lyanna (his younger sister) more than anyone and would never hurt her or her baby. Ned was close with Ser Arther Dayne and in love with his younger sister, Ashara, so why did they fight to the death???? They all knew each other. Unless maybe baby Aegon was also there and the Kingsguard were protecting him.

I guess I am fixated on this Tower of Joy battle scene because I think there is information that hasn't been stated and that it holds the key to who the various 17 year old characters really are and what roles they will play in the upcoming books.

I didn't read the latest GRRM short story in Dangerous Women. I know there are other possibilities for the 3 heads. I like Tyrion as the 3rd because it is obvious that he is half Targ and, as Tyrion has said, he is fascinated by Dragons and has read everything about them. But I am not really sure re: Tyrion being the 3rd head and am open to other possibilities.

The Thenns being cannabals - I think HBO combined 2 wildling groups - Skagos and the Thenns. Makes the Thenns more ferocious and badass in the TV series. Rickon doesn't go to Skagos in the TV series. Asha is taking him to the Umbers.

Markji wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Markji wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

I'm still trying to choose among the following theories: Aegon is really Aegon, Aegon being a Blackfyre or him being Ilyrio's son. I don't by Darkstar being anything more than a dangerous Dornish swordsman who was given really cheesy lines. We've seen Daynes with Target like features before. Aegon is obviously the mummers dragon, but I don't take that to mean that he's fake. It just means that he's being propped up by Varys. It's possible that Ilyrio married a female Targ bastard and gave birth. I looked up the Black Pearl earlier and saw she was a Targ descendent. There's no telling how many are out there.

So many theories. Illyrio's 2nd wife Serra was his true love. She died of the plague. She was from Lys and the Lysene had the same features as the Targaryens - silver hair and purple eyes. Illyrio, when young, was a fierce strong sellsword with a very strong, sculptured body. So he could have fathered Young Griff and they have convinced Connington that Young Griff is the real Aegon.

Switching babies is easy. Hard to tell the difference if someone, i.e. The Mountain, had never seen the baby. And since The Mountain smashed in the face of the baby, who can say if the baby was really Aegon.

Why I think Darkstar is really Aegon : he
1.has the silver hair and purple eyes of the Targs (also the Daynes)
2.has a dark streak through his hair - middle of his head. GRRM stated that baby Aegon had both Targ features and some Dornish (maybe dark hair features from his mother who was Dornish)
3. Hates the Lannisters - tries to kill an innocent girl - Myrcella lannister.
4. is known to be crazy - like the Mad King.
5. Another theory - The real Aegon could have been brought to the Tower of Joy by the 3 Kingsguard who were there when Ned arrived. Why would 3 Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander(Ser Gerold Hightower) and the greatest swordsman (Ser Arthur Dayne) be at the Tower, away from the war and away from protecting the royal family, unless the heir was also there. Ned brought Aegon to the Daynes to be raised, IMO. Maybe this is what Lyanna had Ned promise.

This, of course doesn't "prove" anything. We need more info, but I think it is a real possibility.

The 3 heads of the Dragon - I agree with Daenerys and Jon Snow. The third could be Tyrion - I believe he is half Targ (mad king is his father) and mother is Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife). The mad king had a huge crush on Joanna and would send Tywin away on various missions. He could have easily raped her. The first description of Tyrion iindicates Targ features.

So many theories, and we await book 6 and hopefully book 7 to find out.

Have you read the GRRM's short in the Dangerous Women anthology yet. I thought it vwas decent, but he goes into a lot of detail inti dragon riding. I wouldn't be surprised if the third rider was Brown Benn lol. As for why three Kings Guardsmen were sent to protect Lyanna? I think the L+R=J theory fits more smoothly. What did you guys think of HBOs depiction of the Thenns? I wasn't thrilled with it, but I think it reveals a little about Rickon's fate in Skagos. The book only mentions that that there are rumors that some groups of Wildings practiced cannibalism. I guess it's no longer a rumor.

Yes I agree about R + L = J. I didn't restate that here. I was going on that assumption because that makes the most sense.

But it still doesn't explain why 3 of the 7 Kingsguard are at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna is there but she is an abducted non-family person while Rhaegar's son and heir (Aegon) along with Rhaegar's daughter and wife; the Mad King and queen (Rhaegars and Dany's parents) are all at King's Landing. And Prince Rhaegar (the immediate heir) is in the middle of a battle, the most dangerous place. The Kingsguard should have been with Rhaegar and at King's Landing because their job is to protect the Royal Family. Not an abducted woman (Lyanna).

Also, I don't understand why they had to fight to the death if it were only Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. The war was over. The Targs were all either dead or fled the country. Ned loved Lyanna (his younger sister) more than anyone and would never hurt her or her baby. Ned was close with Ser Arther Dayne and in love with his younger sister, Ashara, so why did they fight to the death???? They all knew each other. Unless maybe baby Aegon was also there and the Kingsguard were protecting him.

I guess I am fixated on this Tower of Joy battle scene because I think there is information that hasn't been stated and that it holds the key to who the various 17 year old characters really are and what roles they will play in the upcoming books.

I didn't read the latest GRRM short story in Dangerous Women. I know there are other possibilities for the 3 heads. I like Tyrion as the 3rd because it is obvious that he is half Targ and, as Tyrion has said, he is fascinated by Dragons and has read everything about them. But I am not really sure re: Tyrion being the 3rd head and am open to other possibilities.

The Thenns being cannabals - I think HBO combined 2 wildling groups - Skagos and the Thenns. Makes the Thenns more ferocious and badass in the TV series. Rickon doesn't go to Skagos in the TV series. Asha is taking him to the Umbers.

If Rhaegar truly believed that Jon would grow up to be the prince that was promised, than it makes more than enough sense that he left three members of the Kingsguard behind. If he was willing to start a civil war to fulfill the prophecy, I think he would be willing to do not be ything in his power to ensure the child's safety. Ned would never hurt Lyanna's baby, but Robert would have killed it, no doubt. For practical and emotional reasons.
As for why he didn't leave Kingsguard with his wife? He probably didn't expect the Lannisters to turn on him in the cruel manner that they did.
I don't know why there had to be a fight to death. We're not even sure how the fight went down. I hope we do soon tho. I t would be cool if GRRM wrote some sort of short prequel covering the rebellion before the series ends.
I also wonder what Rhaegar would have done if he defeated Roger at the Trident. Jaime mentions that Rhaegar spoke of changes being made one he returned. Was he thinking of overthrowing his father? No one would blame him.

VDesai wrote:He needed the King's Guard at the Tower of Joy because he had to hide Lyanna's pregnancy. Perhaps Rhaegar believed that his son with Lyanna (Jon) would be the Prince that Was Promised? He would have to ensure his safety- if Robert found Lyanna pregnant he might not have reacted in a very friendly way.

see this is something I do not get. Ned wouldn't have harmed his sister or her child so why stop him? I could see guarding him from someone else but why take such a stance after the war is over? Orders are ordes I guess.

yellowboy90 wrote:

VDesai wrote:He needed the King's Guard at the Tower of Joy because he had to hide Lyanna's pregnancy. Perhaps Rhaegar believed that his son with Lyanna (Jon) would be the Prince that Was Promised? He would have to ensure his safety- if Robert found Lyanna pregnant he might not have reacted in a very friendly way.

see this is something I do not get. Ned wouldn't have harmed his sister or her child so why stop him? I could see guarding him from someone else but why take such a stance after the war is over? Orders are ordes I guess.

They were charged with protecting Lyanna- probably through the pregnancy- and were probably told to not let Ned see her or find out about the pregnancy. My guess is that Rhaegar did not know Ned's nature, but he did know his older brother Brandon's nature- and Brandon was quite the hothead, prone to action.

yellowboy90 wrote:I'm re-reading A feast and Dance simultaneously which is kind of cool but had a question about coldhands. Is it possible that he could be the Old Bear Lord Commander being warged by Brynden RIvers?

BigDaddyG wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I'm re-reading A feast and Dance simultaneously which is kind of cool but had a question about coldhands. Is it possible that he could be the Old Bear Lord Commander being warged by Brynden RIvers?

Sam probably would've recognized him.

It has been so long since I have read a storm of swords that I do not remember how Sam described his face. Bran is describing that it is hidden under his hood and that he has a rag over part of his face. I know that the Old Bear's raven ate part of his face when he was dead.

Also, I could see why coldhands went out to kill the deserters that mutinied at Craester's keep if it was Old Bear. Another thing is that if the body was real old wouldn't it be more deformed? However the cold may have preserved the body I guess.

That would leave us with the question of where is Benjen? It'd be odd if we never find out what happened to him.

Markji wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Markji wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

I'm still trying to choose among the following theories: Aegon is really Aegon, Aegon being a Blackfyre or him being Ilyrio's son. I don't by Darkstar being anything more than a dangerous Dornish swordsman who was given really cheesy lines. We've seen Daynes with Target like features before. Aegon is obviously the mummers dragon, but I don't take that to mean that he's fake. It just means that he's being propped up by Varys. It's possible that Ilyrio married a female Targ bastard and gave birth. I looked up the Black Pearl earlier and saw she was a Targ descendent. There's no telling how many are out there.

So many theories. Illyrio's 2nd wife Serra was his true love. She died of the plague. She was from Lys and the Lysene had the same features as the Targaryens - silver hair and purple eyes. Illyrio, when young, was a fierce strong sellsword with a very strong, sculptured body. So he could have fathered Young Griff and they have convinced Connington that Young Griff is the real Aegon.

Switching babies is easy. Hard to tell the difference if someone, i.e. The Mountain, had never seen the baby. And since The Mountain smashed in the face of the baby, who can say if the baby was really Aegon.

Why I think Darkstar is really Aegon : he
1.has the silver hair and purple eyes of the Targs (also the Daynes)
2.has a dark streak through his hair - middle of his head. GRRM stated that baby Aegon had both Targ features and some Dornish (maybe dark hair features from his mother who was Dornish)
3. Hates the Lannisters - tries to kill an innocent girl - Myrcella lannister.
4. is known to be crazy - like the Mad King.
5. Another theory - The real Aegon could have been brought to the Tower of Joy by the 3 Kingsguard who were there when Ned arrived. Why would 3 Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander(Ser Gerold Hightower) and the greatest swordsman (Ser Arthur Dayne) be at the Tower, away from the war and away from protecting the royal family, unless the heir was also there. Ned brought Aegon to the Daynes to be raised, IMO. Maybe this is what Lyanna had Ned promise.

This, of course doesn't "prove" anything. We need more info, but I think it is a real possibility.

The 3 heads of the Dragon - I agree with Daenerys and Jon Snow. The third could be Tyrion - I believe he is half Targ (mad king is his father) and mother is Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife). The mad king had a huge crush on Joanna and would send Tywin away on various missions. He could have easily raped her. The first description of Tyrion iindicates Targ features.

So many theories, and we await book 6 and hopefully book 7 to find out.

Have you read the GRRM's short in the Dangerous Women anthology yet. I thought it vwas decent, but he goes into a lot of detail inti dragon riding. I wouldn't be surprised if the third rider was Brown Benn lol. As for why three Kings Guardsmen were sent to protect Lyanna? I think the L+R=J theory fits more smoothly. What did you guys think of HBOs depiction of the Thenns? I wasn't thrilled with it, but I think it reveals a little about Rickon's fate in Skagos. The book only mentions that that there are rumors that some groups of Wildings practiced cannibalism. I guess it's no longer a rumor.

Yes I agree about R + L = J. I didn't restate that here. I was going on that assumption because that makes the most sense.

But it still doesn't explain why 3 of the 7 Kingsguard are at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna is there but she is an abducted non-family person while Rhaegar's son and heir (Aegon) along with Rhaegar's daughter and wife; the Mad King and queen (Rhaegars and Dany's parents) are all at King's Landing. And Prince Rhaegar (the immediate heir) is in the middle of a battle, the most dangerous place. The Kingsguard should have been with Rhaegar and at King's Landing because their job is to protect the Royal Family. Not an abducted woman (Lyanna).

Also, I don't understand why they had to fight to the death if it were only Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. The war was over. The Targs were all either dead or fled the country. Ned loved Lyanna (his younger sister) more than anyone and would never hurt her or her baby. Ned was close with Ser Arther Dayne and in love with his younger sister, Ashara, so why did they fight to the death???? They all knew each other. Unless maybe baby Aegon was also there and the Kingsguard were protecting him.

I guess I am fixated on this Tower of Joy battle scene because I think there is information that hasn't been stated and that it holds the key to who the various 17 year old characters really are and what roles they will play in the upcoming books.

I didn't read the latest GRRM short story in Dangerous Women. I know there are other possibilities for the 3 heads. I like Tyrion as the 3rd because it is obvious that he is half Targ and, as Tyrion has said, he is fascinated by Dragons and has read everything about them. But I am not really sure re: Tyrion being the 3rd head and am open to other possibilities.

The Thenns being cannabals - I think HBO combined 2 wildling groups - Skagos and the Thenns. Makes the Thenns more ferocious and badass in the TV series. Rickon doesn't go to Skagos in the TV series. Asha is taking him to the Umbers.

There is the theory that Lyanna had twins. Jon was sent with Ned, and the second "Aegon" (named that since OG Aegon is dead or renamed Aegon later to pretend to be Rhaegar and Elia's) was sent with Ashara (aka Septa Mordane) to Essos to be raised by JonCon.

Not saying I buy that theory but it's been written about somewhere online (Westeros.org, r/ASOIAF, etc).

The Kingsguard simply have to follow the royals orders. If Rhaegar says go to the TOJ they must comply. If Rhaegar along with his children die, Lyanna's child certainly now has a legit claim as King and they could be there due to that as well. Aegon I had two wives perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna got hitched? He certainly loved her (the vision where as he dies a womans name on his lips, etc).

Dunno. But it's fun to speculate!

H1AND1 wrote:

VDesai wrote:It would seem that Bran should recognize Benjen, or that Coldhands is too old to be Benjen. I do think Coldhands is someone from the past- perhaps The Night King as a few have suggested.

That would leave us with the question of where is Benjen? It'd be odd if we never find out what happened to him.

Plus Leaf says Coldhands died "a long long time ago" or something like that. Benjen, if he is even dead, hasn't been dead that long.

yellowboy90 wrote:

VDesai wrote:It would seem that Bran should recognize Benjen, or that Coldhands is too old to be Benjen. I do think Coldhands is someone from the past- perhaps The Night King as a few have suggested.

That would leave us with the question of where is Benjen? It'd be odd if we never find out what happened to him.

The night king supposedly layed with a white walker woman, so why would he fight against the others?

The idea would be that The Three Eyed Crow is warging into his body in order to lead Bran and co. to him.

VDesai wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

VDesai wrote:It would seem that Bran should recognize Benjen, or that Coldhands is too old to be Benjen. I do think Coldhands is someone from the past- perhaps The Night King as a few have suggested.

That would leave us with the question of where is Benjen? It'd be odd if we never find out what happened to him.

The night king supposedly layed with a white walker woman, so why would he fight against the others?

The idea would be that The Three Eyed Crow is warging into his body in order to lead Bran and co. to him.

Old Nan said the night king was a stark so maybe. Send a stark to help a stark.